Untersberg - The Mystery Mountain

reply to post by Skyfloating


There is a (surprisingly) thourough entry on Wikipedia for the Pied Piper, and i think the best explanatio for this is that the "children" were not in fact kids, but people (adults) who were born in Hamelin, who then left the town to populate some region further away, pehaps in Czechoslovakia. The Piper, could have been a representative of the landowner who owned the lands they left the villeg for. Various other scenarios are also suggested, but it would seeem that this story, or myth, is more of a local history tale that has been passed down and embellished over the years, rather than anything to do with what we are discussing here. A bit of a red herring i think!

Thanks, BlueOrb
So far any of the russian sites I've found are just some short cuts form the myths in 1-2 sentences..

Also would like to add a link (I hope it will be of some use):
www.lochstein.de...

It's a german site with very many beautiful (UBER :]) pictures of Untersberg and the caves. There is an impressive list of bibliography at the end of the page, so for you, german speaking friends, that might be usefull as my german is a bit slow.
BTW I found this by googling Johann Michael Soeltl "Der Untersberg".

[edit on 19-9-2008 by ilaruum]

Originally posted by The Eagle

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I know I'm coming in late... But I "feel/see" purple - indigoish. It's really hard to put it to words, actually. But that's roughly what I get.

Funnily enough, when i looked at the pictures earlier after reading MischeviousElf's post the first thing i "felt" was purple. Interesting...

I've started reading this thread only few hours ago, so maybe the topic went the other way, but just wanted to say that an image that instantly popped into my mind was of a totally black mountain with a purple pillar stretching from its top to the sky..
that is all for now

continued from previous posts

15. Subterranean Dwellers

Mediæval European miners believed in underground spirits. The kobold (dwarf-like creature) filled this role in German folklore and is similar to other creatures of the type, such as the English knocker and the Welsh coblynau. Stories of subterranean kobolds were common in Germany by the 16th century. Superstitions miners believed the creatures to be expert miners and metalworkers who could be heard constantly drilling, hammering, and shoveling. .[45]

Source

A gnome is a mythical creature characterized by its extremely small size and subterranean lifestyle.

mythical creatures such as goblins and dwarves are often represented as gnomes, and vice versa.

Source

A Kallikantzaros (Greek: Καλλικάντζαρος) pl. Kallikantzaroi is a malevolent goblin in Greek and Cypriot folk tradition. They dwell underground but come to the surface from 25 December to 6 January

Source

Huldufólk, or Hidden People, are a part of Icelandic folklore.
Some see the term as synonymous with álfar (elves), while others differentiate between the two

Source

Originally posted by BlueOrb
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

There is a (surprisingly) thourough entry on Wikipedia for the Pied Piper, and i think the best explanatio for this is that the "children" were not in fact kids, but people (adults) who were born in Hamelin, who then left the town to populate some region further away, pehaps in Czechoslovakia. The Piper, could have been a representative of the landowner who owned the lands they left the villeg for.

That's sounds like a perfectly satisfying explanation... from a vantage point across a gap of many centuries and the strictly materialistic viewpoint of many contemporary historians.
(N.B. I am not blasting you, BlueOrb. In fact, I am not blasting anyone.)

The only - or main - real problem I have with this theory is that colonisation was a perfectly ordinary phenomenon in the Middle Ages.
And if the "Hamelin" case were an exceptional event of the kind, surely it would have been recorded, or perceptible from secondary sources.
Is it?
(It may be, for all I know, I haven't researched it.)

Anyway, I think it might be a good idea to open a thread for discussion about medieval legends from a (set of) historical viewpoint(s).
Anyone?









[edit on 20-9-2008 by Vanitas]

reply to post by ilaruum


If neither English nor Russian are your mother tongue, you did very well, Ilaruum.

Thank you for the very interesting post about Speer and Hitler.

If I am not mistaken, the date of the "Aurora borealis" was August 23 rd?
(My grasp of Russian is tenuous at best - and that is a gross overstatement )

Do any of you have the Speer memoirs at hand?
(I read them - with pleasure - when I was around fifteen, but don't own the book.)

If you do, could you please check if there is a mention of January 25/26, 1938?
It is unrelated to Untersberg, but not to what Speer - and purportedly Hitler - said.

I may be starting a thread about phenomena on the sky, anyway, so more on that on some other occasion.


P.S. How silly of me! I forgot you mentioned the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, so of course it was August 23...







[edit on 20-9-2008 by Vanitas]

Originally posted by ilaruum
Suddenly Hitler said to one of his military adjutants: "Looks like a flow of blood. This time we won't get away without the use of force."

Wait a minute... "THIS time"?

Did he really say that?
And if he did, what the heck did he mean by that?
This was before Austria, before Czechoslovakia... what was he talking about?


EDIT:

Oh sorry - this was in 1939, so it was NOT before the Anschluss.
My bad.
Please, don't arrest me.




[edit on 20-9-2008 by AdAstra]

reply to post by white eagle

Originally posted by white eagle

Originally posted by flymetothemoon
Maby you would like to tell if you have a theori about this event ?

i know this event very well. some times ago there was a news paper.
look here:
www.tz-online.de...

this event is a fake based on the myth of missing time at untersberg.

That's interesting. That article put another side to the story...
Thanks so much for share you experiences at the Untersberg, since childhood... It really must be a beautiful place...

Hi,

finally managed to fit a trip to Salzburg into my schedule for next week-end. I'll be visiting relatives there on Saturday and plan to go to Königssee on Sunday.

So, some pictures and my "feel" of the area close to the church on the half-isle will be forthcoming soon after that. I'll also take some pictures of the Untersberg from various angles.

If I can, I'll bring a video camera (will have to borrow one) and a tripod, as well, to show you the place.

Let's see those "do not enter" signs, I'm really astonished that there would be any there, and whether it's simple to get around them or not (mind you, not planning any excursions for now, just doing some recon).

In any case, should anyone else plan to go there, I'm going Sunday, 28th of September, around noon. PM me if you want to meet up.

[edit on 21.9.08 by SETILunatic]

Am I mistaken or didn't St Patrick lead the snakes out of Ireland in a similar way to the Pied Piper?

reply to post by SETILunatic


Don't forget the "myth" about there being a tunnel from the Koenigssee church to the Untersberg! Might be worth a really good look around the church itself. perhaps they have a crypt? That would be a good starting point.....wish i could meet you there, but it's a long way from Dubai.....

Let's see those "do not enter" signs, I'm really astonished that there would be any there, and whether it's simple to get around them or not

You shouldn't be surprised: speleologically interesting (i.e. cavernous ) areas HAVE to be marked like that. And yes, they ARE easy to circumvent. Which is precisely why such warnings are in place.

It also means that, if you decide to transgress,
a) you will have to pay for the rescue operation, should you need one (obviously, I hope you won't!); and b) the management of the area s absolved of any legal and/or moral responsibility.

I am sorry to sound like a wet blanket.
It's just that I've seen all too many accidents happen to people that venture into caves without proper equipment and guidance.

Anyway, I wish you the best of success!

Don't worry, as I wrote, this is purely a recon thing, not planning to enter any caves, especially, as I have zero spelunking knowledge, and I'm not silly enough to do something like that alone.

Still, I'd like to know what the signs are about - whether there are caves, buildings, or whatever else.

It's precisely because of this possible connection from Königssee to Untersberg, as well as the magnetic anomalies that are described to exist at this place, that I'm choosing to go there. It's a plus that the vista there is exceptionally beautiful, with the emerald green lake and the mountains as a backdrop (hope it's sunny).

reply to post by SETILunatic



I am glad to hear that.
As I said, the best of luck to you.
I wish I could come along! :-)

reply to post by SETILunatic


Im hoping one of the readers here joins you on your investigative trip.

Here´s a checklist:

* Myth of the tunnel from the lake (Koenigssee) to Untersberg

* Magnetic Anomalies in St. Bartholomae

* "Iron Door" in Mountain that only shows up on a certain day (not sure where that is though)

* Maybe a night walk in the area...some star-gazing and orb-searching.

* Any info on Hitlers activity there, and any paranormal occurences and sightings.

Sorry if this sounds too ignorant (it's a long thread, I haven't read ALL of the messages), but I've been reading Grimm's stories about Untersberg.
It's interesting that the mountain was once called the "Wonder Mountain" (Wunderberg), but what I would like to know is: what's the story behind the HELFENBURG that they (the Grimm brothers) mention?


Dieser Untersberg oder Wunderberg steht eine kleine deutsche Meil entfernt von der Hauptstadt Salzburg an dem grundlosen Moos, wo einst vor alten Zeiten die große Hauptstadt Helfenburg gestanden seyn soll;

"This Untersberg or Wonder Mountain stands a small German mile (= an ancient measure) from the capital city of Salzburg, on the bottomless moss where once upon a time, in olden times, the great capital city of Helfenburg is supposed to have stood."

(Sorry for the awkward translation, it was made in haste.)


www.wfg-gk.de...

(The above is NOT by the Grimms.
Their book can be found here: www.dersondler.info...)








[edit on 21-9-2008 by AdAstra]

reply to post by AdAstra


I learned something new, nice catch. My first google approach toward Helfenburg reveals it to be a legendary city in which dwarfs and fairies lived. Something to look into for sure.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by AdAstra

 

I learned something new, nice catch. My first google approach toward Helfenburg reveals it to be a legendary city in which dwarfs and fairies lived. Something to look into for sure.

Dwarfs and fairies?

So, it would have been an... ELFENburg?

(It's not too far-fetched.
If one believes in elves, of course. )

reply to post by Skyfloating


I think I have found the Helfenburg to which the author is referring, but there's nothing especially preternatural about this one:

"die Reste der frühern, durch die Heruler zerstörten Stadt Juvavia (Helfenburg), und die von himmlischen Lichtern angebahnte Erbauung der Maximilianszelle im Pongau, das heutige Bischofshofen."

www.heiligenlexikon.de...

Still interesting, anyway.
(And the origins of the name itself still remains a mystery.)

But the real question is: how did the mountain get its alternative name: "Wonder Mountain"?










[edit on 21-9-2008 by AdAstra]

reply to post by AdAstra


Juvavia....interesting! I came across that name a couple of weeks ago, whicle googling myself stupid about this mountain, but never gave it much attention. Upon revisitng it now, i have found the following, from www.sagen.at:

"In einer Nacht des Schreckens und Entsetzens versank die ganze Stadt mit Mann und Maus; an ihre Stelle trat ein weites, ödes Moor (Moos), das noch heute in unabsehbarer Fläche sich längs des Untersberges hinzieht. Dort ist es zur Nachtzeit nicht geheuer, denn Geister treiben daselbst ihren unheimlichen Spuk, verlocken den arglosen Wanderer und ziehen ihn dann hinab in die unergründlichen Tiefen."

or rather .....

"In one night of fright and terror the whole town sank in its entirety and in its place,a wide, desolate moor, which stretches still today (in unpredictable surface) along the Untersberges plains. It is eerie there at night, spirits haunt there, and entice the guileless traveller and pull him then down in the unfathomable depths."

But this is probably just folklore........isn't it....?!

It is a fact that Juvavia did exist, back as far as roman times. So either this could be one possible source of legends of the underworld in this area, or one possible event connected with them..... (maybe?!?....)