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Armed Forces Unarmed Combat

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posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 09:16 AM
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Hi Everyone,

Which armed forces unit, in your oppinion, has the most effective unarmed combat training? I was watching a video online the other day and learnt about the US Marine Corps unarmed combat program called MCMAP.

Link: en.wikipedia.org...

I didn't realise that they went to such a length regarding their unarmed fighting training and I must admit I was pretty impressed.

I know the Royal Marine Commando's also place quite an empasis on hand to hand combat.

I'd also be interested in what the various special forces units around the world train in. Watching a couple of Bob Spours fighting videos, he shows some of the techniques used from a particular system and claims the SAS use's them.

What are your thoughts?




posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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The SAS do only basic unarmed combat and it compares very poorly to most other SF units world wide.

Certainly the most effective in terms of sheer brute force and skill is a three way fight.

korean SF and Tae kwon Do / Ju Jitsu mix, Interior ministry Spetnaz unarmed system called Systema, or the Japanese SF and their nasty mix of Aikido and 'Home System 1'.



posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by Dan Tanna
 


Personally I would of thought the SAS had some of the better unarmed combat training!

I know the Israeli forces train in Krav Maga.



posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 10:09 AM
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SAS and SBS are taught Tae Kwon Do as a basic self defence but I believe
they are also taught Combat Sambo, which is also the basic self defence of the Spetsnaz.

The Royal Navy also have two very fine Muay Thai teams based at
HMS Sultan and HMS Collingwood, near Portsmouth.



posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by fritz
 


Really? Well thats something I didn't know. Tae Kwon Do seems a bit of a strange martial art to teach special forces though, due to its emphasis on high kicks etc

I wouldn't say its particulary suited to self defence.

Combat Sambo is something I'm going to read up on now actually, its a hybrid system of striking and wrestling isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong



posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 05:43 PM
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Try Israel commando's.
They use a style of fighting called "Krav Maga" (en.wikipedia.org...)
Trained in defence and offence.


Alot of Western countries don't really focus on hand-to-hand combat in training.


EDIT: Sorry didn't realise Israeli commando's and Krav Maga was mentioned above.

[edit on 24-8-2008 by WishForWings]



posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by Dan Tanna
 


Personally I would of thought the SAS had some of the better unarmed combat training!

I know the Israeli forces train in Krav Maga.


The SAS do not place a great emphasis on unarmed combat bar the basics. They don't do any high flicking kicking routines nor breaking bricks ala spetnaz.

That said, the SBS have some fearsome close combat instructors. And no, they don't share.



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by fritz
SAS and SBS are taught Tae Kwon Do as a basic self defence but I believe
they are also taught Combat Sambo, which is also the basic self defence of the Spetsnaz.

The Royal Navy also have two very fine Muay Thai teams based at
HMS Sultan and HMS Collingwood, near Portsmouth.



SamBO: Samo-oborona Bez Orujia (Self-defense Without Weapons)
This is a Russian developed combat system. It places little emphasis on offense (if any). Reminds me of Aikido in a way.

I am of a very high oinion of the Korean, Japanese, and Chinese special forces. These countries have developed martial arts to begin with.

However I do have to add that the Russian Spetsnaz, besides placing great emphasis on hand-to-hand combat like the countries above, also has extensive experience in real life combat in chechnya where numerous times fighters would go into hand-to-hand once out of ammo.

Regards,
Maestro



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 05:24 PM
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If you are lucky you will learn the “ultimate” in close quarters fighting techniques. The style currently utilized is called the “gun fight”. It (has and) will defeat every form of martial arts known to man. (Except Chuck Norris, there is no known weapons system currently fielded that will defeat Mr. Norris)



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 



God wears Chuck norris pyjamas to bed.

As for an unbeatable system? is doesn't exist. Its the practitioner that makes it formidable or useless. The style itself could be the best ever, but a crappy practitioner would make it look like play fighting in toy town.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by maestro46
However I do have to add that the Russian Spetsnaz, besides placing great emphasis on hand-to-hand combat like the countries above, also has extensive experience in real life combat in chechnya where numerous times fighters would go into hand-to-hand once out of ammo.


This says two things to me

1. Spetsnaz need to learn to shoot better

2. They need to learn a bit more about ammo conservation (see point 1)

Spetsnaz seem to spend most of their time developing ways to make themselves look "hard" rather actually doing something useful. Hand to hand combat is really a bit of a non-event these days. If you are so close to an enemy that you have to resort to using your hands to take them down then you're in the sh1t.

Soldiering is about winning the firefight and killing the enemy. Hand to hand stuff looks cool and all but is pretty useless in war. In real life you forget the fancy techniques and you resort to beating the living cr@p out of the target with whatever comes to hand until they stop moving.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 12:50 PM
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I'll dig out the bit where a US Infantry Sergeant beat a man to death when he ran out of ammo in Fallujah.

Used his kevlar plate from his vest and his small gerber blade to sever his neck arteries.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Dan Tanna
 


I saw a reconstruction of it (complete with him describing what happened). He wailed on the guy for ages, using everything at hand (including, as you said, plates from his armour). He did have his side-arm on him, though, so why he didn't peg the guy in the face is beyond me.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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Because he had used the ammo going into the final room.

He was all out.



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by PaddyInf

Originally posted by maestro46
However I do have to add that the Russian Spetsnaz, besides placing great emphasis on hand-to-hand combat like the countries above, also has extensive experience in real life combat in chechnya where numerous times fighters would go into hand-to-hand once out of ammo.



This says two things to me

1. Spetsnaz need to learn to shoot better

2. They need to learn a bit more about ammo conservation (see point 1)



A bold claim that doesn't seem to reflect much creativity of thought on the subject.


Originally posted by PaddyInf
Spetsnaz seem to spend most of their time developing ways to make themselves look "hard" rather actually doing something useful.


Ok, that's what you think - but based on what? Care to be specific? I would be happy to enlighten you.


Originally posted by PaddyInf
Hand to hand combat is really a bit of a non-event these days. If you are so close to an enemy that you have to resort to using your hands to take them down then you're in the sh1t.


From an American soldier's perspective since the gulf war and on I suppose. I agree with you, the guy should get slapped if he ends up in hand to hand combat while in the desert with helo and armor support. What you really should realize though is that US combat experience since Vietnam has been nothing more then kicking ass to low tech crap armies, who's countries have hardly put up a decent guerilla ressistance...or much resistance at all.

America has not faced a conflict like what the Russians had in Chechnya in a long time. Chechnyan terrain is mostly mountains, armor and air support have difficulties opperating there. Troops (even convoys) can easily fall into ambushes and it will be a while befor help can arrive, if it can even arrive at all. Are you starting to get the picture yet?

Or lets take the storming of Grozny for example. While it was mostly army units, Spetsnaz did take part in this. This wasn't like rolling into Baghdad for the American army, cause unlike the Iraqies the Chechens can and will put up a hell of a fight. While the failure of the operation is to be entirely blamed on Russian command, how are you gonna blame the troops who were surrounded in that city over night for running out of ammo and ending up in hand-to-hand combat?


Originally posted by PaddyInf
Soldiering is about winning the firefight and killing the enemy. Hand to hand stuff looks cool and all but is pretty useless in war. In real life you forget the fancy techniques and you resort to beating the living cr@p out of the target with whatever comes to hand until they stop moving.


The firefight ends for you when you're out of ammo. When you're out of ammo the nemy will try to close in capture you or kill you. You can either be a coward and surrender, or you can fight or try to capture a gun with whatever means you have left at your disposal.

To say that the Spetsnaz can't shoot or don't know how to conserve ammo is simply naive. These guys are special forces, and just like any other special forces they know everything there is to shooting and conserving ammo.

As far as the "fancy stuff" comment goes - the Spetsnaz do not do fancy stuff. I would leave that more to Koreans or Japanese or the Chinese. The Spetsnaz are trained to kill the enemy as quickly as posible hand -to-hand, prefferably with one strike. They aren't taught the Jet-li stuff you see in movies. So you can proceed to try and beat the living crap out o one of these guys when you meet one, but know that you will be down on the ground and, if not dead, knocked out in a matter of 2-3 moves at most.

Regards,
Maestro



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 01:44 AM
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And THAT, maestro46 old son, is exactly the point that Paddy, Saint and I have been banging on about since we joined this club.

To say "the firefight is over when you run out of ammo" illustrates the American mentality when it comes to the firefight.

Whereas a British Tom is taught to snap shoot using single rounds or double taps, our American cousins seem intent of using half a mag on spray and pray!

This to me has always been the case, In other words, peace through superior firepower, forgetting that the logistical war drives the fighting.

Now, if somebody is going to start an arguament that you need to use, or it takes half a mag of 5.56 to bring a guy down, then I'm afraid that this only indicates one of two things.

Either the standard of shooting in the US armed forces is abysmally low or that 5.56 is not the ideal round to be using. Perhaps that is why units are clamouring for the good old 7.62!

As to the Spetsnaz not being able to shoot and doing stuff to make themselves look hard, well to be candid, I agree.

Many years ago a guy called Jim Short went to Russia just after the fall of the Wall to train the then Spetsnaz Anti-Gang and Terrorist Squads, in British CQBR techniques.

Having arrived at their version of the killing house, Jim and his staff found these guys jumping off the apex of the roof, doing a forward roll, whilst drawing their sidearm.

Very pretty it looked but unfortunately, not very practicable. Things have moved on somewhat, I believe.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by maestro46


Originally posted by PaddyInf
Spetsnaz seem to spend most of their time developing ways to make themselves look "hard" rather actually doing something useful.


Ok, that's what you think - but based on what? Care to be specific? I would be happy to enlighten you.


Based on any sources (both restricted and in the public domain) that I have seen regarding Spetsnaz training and operational techniques. They spend lots of time performing showboat techniques such as summersaulting through windows etc rather than concentrating on the fundamentals, i.e. the stuff that actually works and is practical.



From an American soldier's perspective since the gulf war and on I suppose...

...America has not faced a conflict like what the Russians had in Chechnya in a long time. Chechnyan terrain is mostly mountains, armor and air support have difficulties opperating there. Troops (even convoys) can easily fall into ambushes and it will be a while befor help can arrive, if it can even arrive at all. Are you starting to get the picture yet?


First, I'm not american. I'm British. And I do get the picture. It's been happening in Afghanistan and Iraq for years. Hence we carry enough ammo and use decent force protection measures combined with controlled fire discipline to hold a position for several hours if required.


how are you gonna blame the troops who were surrounded in that city over night for running out of ammo and ending up in hand-to-hand combat?


I don't blame the troops (well, maybe the local commanders who did a p1ss poor combat estimate and didn't ensure enough ammo was distributed or have resup or relief measures in place). Why were they in a position that precluded them from doing a fighting withdrawl? Really there's no excuse for this.




The firefight ends for you when you're out of ammo. When you're out of ammo the nemy will try to close in capture you or kill you. You can either be a coward and surrender, or you can fight or try to capture a gun with whatever means you have left at your disposal.


Now that demonstrates a completely childish attitude. Why is surrendering cowardly if you have no ammunition, are outnumbered and are facing an armed opponent? Attempting to take on an armed man with no weapons outside arms reach is suicide. Simple as. Now you may give it all the old "I'd rather die than be taken captive" bo11ocks, but in real life this doesn't happen. The survival instinct kicks in. You've seen your mates get shot up. You know you're going to die if you attack. You'll put your hands up because you'll think there's still a chance, and there probably is. But not if you're dead.


To say that the Spetsnaz can't shoot or don't know how to conserve ammo is simply naive. These guys are special forces, and just like any other special forces they know everything there is to shooting and conserving ammo.


It was a tongue in cheek comment. My point was that it is poor planning and preperation to put a section into a position whereby have to resort to using their hands to defend themselves. If a detached unit can't realise when they're going to run out of ammo in plenty of time to withdraw then they really need to have a word with themselves.


As far as the "fancy stuff" comment goes - the Spetsnaz do not do fancy stuff. I would leave that more to Koreans or Japanese or the Chinese. The Spetsnaz are trained to kill the enemy as quickly as posible hand -to-hand, prefferably with one strike. They aren't taught the Jet-li stuff you see in movies. So you can proceed to try and beat the living crap out o one of these guys when you meet one, but know that you will be down on the ground and, if not dead, knocked out in a matter of 2-3 moves at most.


Ooh they sound very tough, but I'll not have to worry about that. If I come face to face with one of these boys I'll just stay 15m away and shoot him with one of the rounds that I'd conserved, safe in the knowledge that he'll probably have no ammo and that punches, throws etc are fairly useless outside about 5 feet.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 07:03 AM
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If I come face to face with one of these boys I'll just stay 15m away and shoot him with one of the rounds that I'd conserved, safe in the knowledge that he'll probably have no ammo and that punches, throws etc are fairly useless outside about 5 feet.

Succint and to the point. Nicely done Paddy.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by PaddyInf

Ooh they sound very tough, but I'll not have to worry about that. If I come face to face with one of these boys I'll just stay 15m away and shoot him with one of the rounds that I'd conserved, safe in the knowledge that he'll probably have no ammo and that punches, throws etc are fairly useless outside about 5 feet.



Ohhh PaddyInf,
I gotta ask, are you a recruit instructor? I mean its the way natural sarcasm seeps into your post in a very subtle way and reminds me of people from my past.

Great post.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by maestro46
 


i agree with you the yank jar heads have been fighting low tech enemy but as a reg in the paras i fought along side them and you could not hope for a better bunch beside you in a dust up believe me i know those guys are superb when the # hits the fan cool as you like and not what people think two jar heads saved my life and they are two of the best guys in the world we are still mates to this day and we will be for life as far as the best of the best go it has to be the SAS but those guys are not far off anon



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