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U.S. warship docks in Black Sea port with Georgia aid

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posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by manson_322

why i believe that Russia should provide bioweapons to Cuba/Venezuala is in response to NATO expansion , and ABM deployments in Poland , also , USA and saudis was the one who funded Chechen terrorists like Shamil Basayev to kill russians .... and not only that , USA also give asylum to Akmadhov , another major chechen terrorist ..., and worst , overtly backing Georgia in genocide on russian citizens in South Ossetia





You mean to say that weapons designed to kill massive amounts of people are somehow equivalent to weapons that are designed to shoot down incoming missiles?

Why does Russia get to cry over being encircled anyways?

Aren't the Russians supplying arms to Venezuela and Cuba? Aren't those countries anti-American? Wouldn't that be considered encirclement as well?

If Russia can have friends at the doorstep of the U.S., why can't the U.S. do the same at the doorstep of Russia?

And why is Russia crying about this massive "genocide" in South Ossetia when they themselves launched SS-21's into Grozny civilian areas during the chechan wars?

MAYBE, just MAYBE, if Russia TREATED its neighbors better(same with the U.S.) , the countries surrounding Russia wouldn't be clamoring to get into NATO.



[edit on 26-8-2008 by wutone]




posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by wutone

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by greysave
 


I really got to back up Manson on this one, the Russians beat the Germans hands down. We were a side show. Them Russians lost 100 men to every 1 of ours. 25 million USSR deaths to our 250,000. They beat the Hun, we went in when the winner was clear. The war was not a World War, it was a German Russian War. We cleaned up with the Japs.


T

The Russians didn't win "hands down", they were lucky that Japan and Germany were incredibly stupid for a mistiming of their attacks.



Russian was responsible for 85% of the losses of the German wehramcht ..and the Lend lease only consisted of 10% of total soviet wartime production



But what about lend-lease? Let us hear what one of the most serious publications of the American bourgeoisie has to say on this subject. Leland Stowe in an article in the October issue of the quarterly Foreign Affairs writes: “The American lend-lease and British supplies did not reach Soviet Russia in sufficient proportions to become a major factor in the crucial defensive fighting along the Don, in the northern Caucasus and at Stalingrad during the summer and early autumn of 1942. This flow became really important only about the time that the Russians had already demonstrated their bulldog grip on Stalingrad.” Mr. Stowe is compelled to admit that the Red Army’s military record represents an “exclusively Soviet achievement.” In public the capitalist press of course loudly denies this. But among themselves these gentlemen prefer the truth.
www.marxists.org...

acc. to Hitler's Nemesis" by Walter S. Dunn Jr, . OVERWHELMING amount of supply, reached Soviets only after battle of Stalingrad. Even WITHOUT ANY LENDLEASE Soviet industry out produced Germans by HUGE margin. Book stated that Soviets could win the Germans WITHOUT any help from outside, and second front.
David Glantz ("When Titans Clashed,") seems to feel that lend-lease was not the linchpin to eventual Soviet success. It wasn't Lend-Lease that undertook the massive (and, frequently, nasty) effort to move entire plants east to keep wartime production going. Nor did it equip the Siberian divisions that turned the tide at the defense of Moscow.


By early 1943 the Red Army could defeat the Wermacht without military assistance, but to do so required enormous quantities of advanced weapons and an army of at least 5 million men. The cost in lives would run in the millions. The Americans and especially the British feared heavy casualties. Public opinion in both countries would have balked at a war dragging on for years with millions of casualties. It took a concerted effort by the British and Americans to overcome about a hundred German divisions from 1943 to 1945 after the Germans had been defeated on the Eastern Front. The question of whether the Russians needed a second front in 1943 is a sequel to the thesis that launching an attack in France was not only possible in 1943 but advantageous to the West, presented in Second Front Now 1943 (published in 1981). The second front was not essential to the Soviets after early 1943. According to one Soviet historian, "After this [the Battle of Stalin- grad] nobody could any longer doubt the ability of the Soviet Army to crush Nazi Germany singlehandedly
www.questia.com...

--------------

as ufoooorhunter said , Russia defeated german , while USA defeated Japan

Russia did determine her own destiny. She had already beaten the Germans during Op Typhoon, the last push on Moscow. The first Lend-Lease shipments of any value to the Russians did not arrive until well into '42, after the danger of Russia immediately folding had passed.
Lend-lease helped the USSR to win the war faster, and with less casualties. Without Lend-lease they most likely still would have been on the winning side.



[edit on 26-8-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 26-8-2008 by manson_322]



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by manson_322

Russian was responsible for 85% of the losses of the German wehramcht ..and the Lend lease only consisted of 10% of total soviet wartime production




The Russian landscape and weather along with German ineptness was responsible for those losses.

If the Germans didn't overextend, things would have been different and the Russians would have lost 40 million instead of their 20 million.

It is hard to win a war in a foreign land with a harsh and unfamiliar environment, just ask the Russians that went to Afghanistan.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by manson_322

Russia did determine her own destiny. She had already beaten the Germans during Op Typhoon, the last push on Moscow. The first Lend-Lease shipments of any value to the Russians did not arrive until well into '42, after the danger of Russia immediately folding had passed.
Lend-lease helped the USSR to win the war faster, and with less casualties. Without Lend-lease they most likely still would have been on the winning side.
[edit on 26-8-2008 by manson_322]


Then who did the UK beat? If germany would have concentrated all its efforts on JUST russia and perhaps chose to not fight in winter, who knows

All that stuff is speculation manson and it is HIGHLY speculative at best.

see this is what I take issue with where it says


The American lend-lease and British supplies did not reach Soviet Russia in sufficient proportions to become a major factor

That didn't stop them from accepting them anyway though DID IT!



in the crucial defensive fighting along the Don, in the northern Caucasus and at Stalingrad during the summer and early autumn of 1942. This flow became really important only about the time that the Russians had already demonstrated their bulldog grip on Stalingrad.”
Their "bull dog grip" LMAO you sure it wasn't "Kung Fu Grip!" HA HA HA It says it became really important in the same breath he says "but they didn't need it" I wish this author didn't contradict himself so much with his "Bulldung" story telling

This next one is hysterical, This last part could be said about anyone at that time


"The question of whether the Russians needed a second front in 1943 is a sequel to the thesis that launching an attack in France was not only possible in 1943 but advantageous to the West, presented in Second Front Now 1943 (published in 1981). The second front was not essential to the Soviets after early 1943 .According to one Soviet historian, "After this [the Battle of Stalin- grad] nobody could any longer doubt the ability of the Soviet Army to crush Nazi Germany singlehandedly "


it's like we are supposed to all go in and soften them up and then after they are weak by 43 we are supposed to say OK Russia you can finish them off "singlehanded" when that wouldn't have been the case regardless if we all the allies did leave the theater. To think they would even consider this angle of logic is desperate for a country still injured within its own ego its national masculinity still challenged and seeking approval even if it has to cheapen the contributions of others that would make it even possible for it to defeat them "singlehandeledly" in the first place.

This is like three Boxers in the ring all three fighting one Boxer named Germany in a five round match. About the 3rd Round with Germany getting the crap beat out of him by three opponents. Russia decides to tell the other two Boxers with them to step a side, sayin,, " I think I can take em single handed now LOL" but since they didn't they missed out on history saying they could have beaten them single handed if only they thought of it then. LOL It STILL wouldn't be the truth! HA HA HA

Manson try removing the bias from the sources you get this data from. It is obvious what this is attempting to do and it has nothing to do with accuracy much less honesty.

Im surprised manson didn't catch this cheap trick






[edit on 26-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 05:42 AM
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Hey all...I really wish some ppl would stay on top of current facts and not take two week old news as gospel. A perfect example is Sundays Washington Post front page article about how nobodys been able to find all the bodies that the Georgians suppsedly killed. Officially the tally from all sides totals about 300 for now based on official counts that also include Russias troop loss in this ordeal.

Also, the Georgian attack that supposedly started all this was according to Georgia a direct response to seperatist attacks. I doubt well ever know who threw the first punch but it appears both parties have been going back and forth at eachother since the mid 90s.

The article does state that Georgian forces were rounding up imprisoning and executing Ossetian seperatists by there own admission right before the invasion.

Seems old habits die hard on BOTH sides. Like that old saying you can take a person out of a neighborhood but you cant take the hood out of the person. You can take the Soviets out of Georgia but you cant take 60 years of Soviet style intolerance out of the Georgians.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by Reise Reise
Hey all...I really wish some ppl would stay on top of current facts and not take two week old news as gospel.


I wish New members wouldn't come in here thinking they can embellish their morning news paper post by lying about people taking news thats is two weeks old as Gospel.

Read the Original Posts Date in the external source Genius


Sun Aug 24, 2:15 AM ET

BATUMI, Georgia (Reuters) - The first U.S. warship to bring aid to Georgia arrived in the country's main Black Sea port of Batumi on Sunday, in a strong gesture of support for the ex-Soviet republic in its conflict with Russia


Looks like two DAYS not weeks







[edit on 26-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by dAlen
 


Russia should just go home, as well as everyone else.
Let Georgia alone, etc.

USA should just go home, as well as everyone else.
Let Iraq alone, etc.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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Some new news from today:

NATO-Russian naval controntation on tap in Black Sea?

Tbilisia/Kiev/Moscow - A NATO-Russia naval confrontation in the Black Sea appeared days away on Tuesday, after American officials announced a US warship would attempt to enter a Georgian port controlled by Russian army and naval forces. US fleet elements will in coming weeks unload humanitarian aid in the Russia-controlled Georgian port Poti, US embassy spokesman Stephen Guice said in remarks widely reported by Georgian media.

www.earthtimes.org...

NATO warships armed with strategic weapons, official says

RBC, 26.08.2008, Moscow 15:32:24.NATO warships stationed in Black Sea offshore waters are equipped with strategic weapons, Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the Russian military's General Staff, said at a briefing today. Particularly, the ships are armed with cruise missiles with a range of 2,500 kilometers or more, the official said.

www.rbcnews.com...

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind any US military personnel on ATS of OPSEC. Some of the recent Russian news reports and Russian intelligence appear to have been data mining ATS threads.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by manson_322
you are making just a hypothetical scenario

now you are talking CBG tactics , CBG are likely to face the hypersonic Kh-22MA(this one is hypersonic ,not supersonic like earlier 60's era Kh-22) , rather than supersonic sea skimmers Moskits, and in salvos it will be extremely deadly


You talk as if Russia holds unlimited numbers of each weapon and they are all deployed in positions to allow for massively expensive salvos to engage a single taget... but that is only where the sillyness of your position begins...

We are not flying Tomcats with Phoenix missiles... We are flying F/A-18 Super Hornets off of the carriers, they are generally armed with:

* 2× AIM-9 Sidewinder on wingtips
* AIM-120 AMRAAM
* AIM-7 Sparrow
* AGM-88 HARM
* AGM-65 Maverick missiles



Kh-22 could not be intercepted by Phoenix(hypersonic) long range standoff BVR missile

and as Admiral Rickover said , US carriers will survive only two days in a battle against Russia


If we pull them into port for you, do not utilize the USAF and the Russians have "voodoo magic" then I am sure you are totally correct. The quote is 30 years old. you seem to propose that our carrier groups are vulnerable to all of Russia's MIGHTY CRUISE MISSILES and subs... You live in the 80's. The surveillance packages we are using on our attack aircraft, surveillance aircraft and even autonomous drones are not blind to Russian subs. Sure, maybe you have parked one for months on the bottom of the ocean, buried it in debris and could get a lucky shot, but it is doubtful.


the biggest threat to the russian forces comes from american nuclear submarines , while the biggest threat the american nuclear subs will have is Russian Kilo class SSK sub ......


Kilo class is junk and the numbers in service are greatly exaggerated.



so will most of the US populace cease to live in less than 72 hours , if Cuba/Venezuala retaliates to US invasion/nuclear strike with bioweapons


So you now claim that enough warheads can be launched from Cuba/SA, in a single salvo to eliminate all of N. America?

You have totally lost it.




[edit on 26-8-2008 by manson_322]



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by XIDIXIDIX
 





If germany would have concentrated all its efforts on JUST russia and perhaps chose to not fight in winter, who knows

if Germany had not attacked , the USSR would have invaded it , by late 1942 ,according to military Historian Viktor Suvorov

Germany had already concentrated most of its firepower on the eastern front , ie.




All that stuff is speculation manson and it is HIGHLY speculative at best.


except that it is acknowledged by military historians like former american colonel David Glantz ,Sir Walter , Viktor Suvorov




t's like we are supposed to all go in and soften them up and then after they are weak by 43 we are supposed to say OK Russia you can finish them off "singlehanded" when that wouldn't have been the case regardless if we all the allies did leave the theater. To think they would even consider this angle of logic is desperate for a country still injured within its own ego its national masculinity still challenged and seeking approval even if it has to cheapen the contributions of others that would make it even possible for it to defeat them "singlehandeledly" in the first place.


history proves , how Russia destroyed the nazi Wehrmacht single handly , it was responsible for destroying 85% of german and other fascist forces ,




This is like three Boxers in the ring all three fighting one Boxer named Germany in a five round match. About the 3rd Round with Germany getting the crap beat out of him by three opponents. Russia decides to tell the other two Boxers with them to step a side, sayin,, " I think I can take em single handed now LOL" but since they didn't they missed out on history saying they could have beaten them single handed if only they thought of it then. LOL It STILL wouldn't be the truth!


Russia was interested in conquering Europe and Germany , it was this fear that allies opened a second front in normandy in 1944 , it was this fear(spread of communism and fall of entire Europe to soviet command , that USA and British opened a second front



Then who did the UK beat?


UK fought the war against german forces in africa and Japanese forces in indo -china ,Burma(eastern asia) etc



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 12:33 PM
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It appears the US Coast Guard cutter Dallas is on its way to Poti, the disputed Georgian port.

U.S. warship due to arrive in disputed Georgian port

Defying Russia, an American warship that brought humanitarian aid to Georgia was expected to arrive Wednesday in this nervous Black Sea port that's being watched over by Russian soldiers, Georgian officials said.

www.kansascity.com...



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by MikeboydUS
 


As they said in the Hunt for Red October, WAY TO GO DALLAS!!!



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 12:48 PM
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I honestly cannot see this going anything but badly. A U.S. destroyer and Coast Guard (think about that, for a moment) cutter in the Black Sea? What's next, an aircraft carrier?

The Black Sea is just one of a few places where we're going to go face-to-face with Russia. I can come up with so many scenarios for this, much of it already envisioned by computer game developers.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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You talk as if Russia holds unlimited numbers of each weapon and they are all deployed in positions to allow for massively expensive salvos to engage a single taget... but that is only where the sillyness of your position begins...


there are 162 tu-22m3 that russia deploys , and each is armed with 3 hypersonic Kh-22 MA

hypersonic missile salvos are much cheaper than CBG's




If we pull them into port for you, do not utilize the USAF and the Russians have "voodoo magic" then I am sure you are totally correct. The quote is 30 years old. you seem to propose that our carrier groups are vulnerable to all of Russia's MIGHTY CRUISE MISSILES and subs... You live in the 80's.


yes vulnerable to russian ASCm's that is acknowledged fact ,



The surveillance packages we are using on our attack aircraft, surveillance aircraft and even autonomous drones are not blind to Russian subs. Sure, maybe you have parked one for months on the bottom of the ocean, buried it in debris and could get a lucky shot, but it is doubtful.


ASW capabilites of surface fleet of USN is Dismal , and carrier are floating ducks against russian supersonic/hypersonic ASCM's salvo attack according to military historian John Keegan (refer :the price of Admiralty

US surface fleet is ovverrated:
www.transasianaxis.com...

US SSN are the best of the world




Kilo class is junk and the numbers in service are greatly exaggerated.

this is the biggest load of BS , I ever read ...




The boats are mainly intended for anti-shipping and anti-submarine operations in relatively shallow waters. Kilo class submarines can operate very quietly. Project 636, sometimes called by the US Navy "The Black Hole" for its uncanny ability to "disappear", is thought to be one of the quietest diesel-electric submarine classes in the world
en.wikipedia.org...-0


there are 17 kilo subs in service acc. to warfare.ru




So you now claim that enough warheads can be launched from Cuba/SA, in a single salvo to eliminate all of N. America?


no just 30-40 bio warheads are required, the rest of mayhem will wrecked by forces of nature like wind,water , that disperse the Biological weapon strains in continental USA,

in 1984 , soviet union created the ultimate superweapon of all time
SuperPlague weapons whose lethality time WAS 8-24 HOURS , AND is immune to any known antidote, in fact Accoridng to Ken Alibek , it would be easier to find a cure for AIDS , rather than the soviet genetic created/engineering bioplague strains

-plague
Bubonic plague has a 1-15% mortality rate in treated cases and a 40-60% mortality rate in untreated cases.
Septicemic plague (primary or secondary) has a 40% mortality rate in treated cases and 100% mortality in untreated cases.
Pneumonic plague (primary or secondary) has 100% mortality if not treated within the first 24 hours of infection.

warfare.ru...




So you now claim that enough warheads can be launched from Cuba/SA, in a single salvo to eliminate all of N. America?


in fact using warheads is expensive for Cuba , there are better ways to use the Russian superplague weapon



To be an effective biological weapon, airborne pathogens must be dispersed as fine particles less than 5 mm in size. Infection with an aerosolized agent usually requires deep inspiration of an infectious dose. Advanced weapons systems (eg, warheads, missiles) are not required for the aerosolized delivery of biological agents. Low-technology aerosolization methods including agricultural crop-dusters; aerosol generators on small boats, trucks, or cars; backpack sprayers; and even purse-size perfume atomizers suffice. Aerosolized dispersal of biological agents is the mode most likely to be used by terrorists and military groups.
warfare.ru...


to ensure death of enemy population and enemy troops , the Russians also created another bio superweapon according to Ken Alibek:
Paralytic cobra toxin – the toxin produced by the cobra. There are reports the Russians have used recombinant DNA to introduce venom producing genes into bacteria.
warfare.ru...


There are a wide range of techniques and agents that can be used in germ warfare. Diseases which could be spread among an enemy include anthrax, forms of plague, smallpox, yellow fever, forms of Ebola and botulism. A biological agent can come in several forms, including a bacteria, fungus, virus or toxin. Even very small quantities of an agent can cause very painful death. It has been estimated that a few grams of some viruses, if distributed effectively, could kill millions.
warfare.ru...



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:23 PM
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Lets not forget that America has one weapon that Russia can't defend against.

The Jericho




posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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The US guided missile destroyer McFaul is now apparently also on its way to Poti, but the Russian president claims it is carrying weapons to supply Georgia. The US Coast Guard cutter Dallas was reported earlier also being en route to Poti.

Russia says U.S. ships arms to Georgia, U.S. denies
www.alertnet.org...



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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OK I gotta put the brakes on this right now. I can't listen to this drivel anymore.

I have a better chance of getting struck by lightning while walking to go pick up my lottery winnings after taking Angelina Jolie out for our first date than Russia using bioweapons against the US.

There's one thing you forget. Bioweapons know no borders. They know no nationalities, they know no politics. In todays age of transportation, a so-called "superplague" like the one you speak of would be worldwide in a matter of weeks, if that long. Russia wouldn't release it, even if they *could* inoculate their entire population. Why? Because you'd have ohh, I dunno...120 pissed off nations (16 with nuclear weapons) who, at the point of the death of their entire populations, would decide that they have nothing to lose by turning Russia into a smoking hole in the ground.

That would not be an act of war against a nation. That would be an act of war against humanity. Russia is many things, but stupid they are not. You've gone way past your usual anti-US vomitus and broached the line of psychosis.



Originally posted by manson_322


no just 30-40 bio warheads are required, the rest of mayhem will wrecked by forces of nature like wind,water , that disperse the Biological weapon strains in continental USA,

in 1984 , soviet union created the ultimate superweapon of all time
SuperPlague weapons whose lethality time WAS 8-24 HOURS , AND is immune to any known antidote, in fact Accoridng to Ken Alibek , it would be easier to find a cure for AIDS , rather than the soviet genetic created/engineering bioplague strains

-plague
Bubonic plague has a 1-15% mortality rate in treated cases and a 40-60% mortality rate in untreated cases.
Septicemic plague (primary or secondary) has a 40% mortality rate in treated cases and 100% mortality in untreated cases.
Pneumonic plague (primary or secondary) has 100% mortality if not treated within the first 24 hours of infection.

warfare.ru...


*snip*

[/quote]



[edit on 26-8-2008 by netwarrior]



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The US guided missile destroyer McFaul is now apparently also on its way to Poti, but the Russian president claims it is carrying weapons to supply Georgia. The US Coast Guard cutter Dallas was reported earlier also being en route to Poti.

Russia says U.S. ships arms to Georgia, U.S. denies
www.alertnet.org...


This is moments away from f-you's being exchanged and then, bam! The Middle East explodes. The DNC is absorbing "all the news that is fit to print". I think we have an armageddon situation here.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by wutone
 

"The Japs woouls have cleaned up with the Russians" lol wutone that's hilarious! The Russians would have turned to Japan after defeating Germany and colonised the place with ease. Compare the strength of the USSR in terms of population and more importantly industrial output and resources. The Russians were always bound to beat the Germans once the shock of offensive invasion was beaten back, to put it simply they had more people, more oil and a massive edge in industrial production. The Soviet war machine would have done to Japan what it do to Germany. The biggest country on the planet would have crushed Japan, indeed it did so in the final days through massive invasion and still runs the north of Imperial Japan today!



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by manson_322




Here you go again suggesting that America be attacked with biological weapons. You denied that you wanted my family dead, but its obvious you have a death with for us. What is you f^&*ing problem? You don't like the US fine. You want us all dead though. Why bother typing anything to us. You are a despicable person. I don't like to judge, but I do think you should burn in hell if that is how you really feel.



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