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How fast is Gravity?

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posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by robwerden
and C I just feel it in my brain that gravity has to be faster.


That settles it. I'm convinced!
This is really great news. We can fire all those pesky scientists now. If we feel stuff in our brains that makes it true!




posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 07:52 PM
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Lets just assume that gravity really has no relation to speed. With this in mind can we play star trek as Robwerden suggested? What would happen if we opened a large wormhole and made our sun disappear from our solar system? Obviously the light and heat would disappear from earth in about 8 minutes. Would the Earth change its orbit at the same time the last ray of light hits us or would it have already happened 8 minutes earlier?



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by robwerden
and C I just feel it in my brain that gravity has to be faster.


That settles it. I'm convinced!
This is really great news. We can fire all those pesky scientists now. If we feel stuff in our brains that makes it true!


Come on Phage... Lets not turn this into that kind of thread. I do understand what you are saying, but there are better ways to put it.

I believe that even Einstein had "feelings" and "intuitions" that he could not fully explain. He just knew it had to be that way and he created his theories around some of his feelings. Don't you ever believe in something even though you can't remember the reasoning behind why you believe it?



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by Setharoo
 

The thing is, Einstein was a scientist with a sound understanding of the scientific method and a good understanding of nature/physics.



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by Setharoo
 


Uh. yeah...What he said (above).

You're right. It was uncalled for.

[edit on 25-8-2008 by Phage]



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 08:06 PM
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The exact moment the Sun dissapeared, so would its effect of gravitation on the Earth. Speed still doesn't come into this matter. It would be like spinning a yoyo, and when you cut the line there is no more connection between your finger and the yoyo. Instant.



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by alundaio
The exact moment the Sun dissapeared, so would its effect of gravitation on the Earth. Speed still doesn't come into this matter. It would be like spinning a yoyo, and when you cut the line there is no more connection between your finger and the yoyo. Instant.


So this would be proof of action at a distance. If this is true we could realistically create a communication system that does not have the time delay that radio communications have. How would the earth know EXACTLY when the yo-yo string was cut. The information would have to travel faster than light.

If this is the case we can communicate with astronauts on distant planets by "plucking" the yo-yo string which instantly sends the message to the other end of the string. Just doesn't seem like logic to me?



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 09:01 PM
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A few reasons.
First, the same scientist say light can not escape the gravity of a black hole. So gravity is there for more powerful, hence faster.


Being more powerful does not make something faster, you can't use these terms in this situation on the same scale. Gravity itself has no speed, it is the relationship between two massive objects. You can look at the acceleration of gravity, but acc is not the same as speed. A massive black hole accelerates light towards it faster than light can move away, and the speed at which the light moves towards the black hole is dependent upon the mass of the particular black hole. Some just slow down light enough so that it doesn't reach us.



Question. I read somewhere that Earth's escape velocity for the shuttle is roughly 25,000 MPH. How does that equate to the speed of gravity, or am I all washed up?


Again, gravity has no speed, it is a force acting upon an object in relation to another massive object. To leave the earth's orbit, an object the mass of the shuttle goes that fast because gravity pulls on harder than an object with a smaller mass. Jump in the air, and then jump again holding a 20lb weight. As you increase your weight it becomes more difficult to break from the force of gravity because the strength of gravity increases the heavier an object gets. You don't reach the same height and fall slower or faster, you just simply don't pull away as much.



It takes around 8 minutes I think for light from the sun to reach Earth. Einstein thought about this very thing. If the sun were to suddenly disappear, would gravity suddenly disappear or would it take 8 minutes before we noticed? And he found that it would be equal to the speed of light, so it would take 8 minutes before the lack of gravity could be noticed.


Gravity would not, and could not disappear because it is always present. The gravity of the other planets would still be affecting us. The gravitational effect of the moon is what causes tides. The earth actually bulges out towards the moon because the water is drawn towards it as we spin.

You can't think of gravity as a line connecting one thing to another, it is a background that everything in space rests upon. If you remove the sun the 'sheet' of spacetime will adjust, these adjustments will be the affect of gravity.

Gravity is the distortion of spacetime caused by the presence of massive objects.



Lets just assume that gravity really has no relation to speed. With this in mind can we play star trek as Robwerden suggested? What would happen if we opened a large wormhole and made our sun disappear from our solar system? Obviously the light and heat would disappear from earth in about 8 minutes. Would the Earth change its orbit at the same time the last ray of light hits us or would it have already happened 8 minutes earlier?


It would have already happened. The light and heat are not what cause the gravity, it's just something coming from a gravitational object. The change in gravity would be immediate, but as I've stated before, the full affect may take some time. Think of gravity as a tight sheet with heavy objects placed on it, remove the biggest and it will immediately effect everything else. The adjustment period may be odd and erratic, but eventually everything will find an equilibrium. Which would result in the Earth being slung off into space or colliding with another planet. I don't think Jupiter is massive enough to create a stable orbit, if chance were to even put us in a position to do so.



So this would be proof of action at a distance. If this is true we could realistically create a communication system that does not have the time delay that radio communications have. How would the earth know EXACTLY when the yo-yo string was cut. The information would have to travel faster than light.


The yo-yo string analogy doesn't work for the physics in this case.



If this is the case we can communicate with astronauts on distant planets by "plucking" the yo-yo string which instantly sends the message to the other end of the string. Just doesn't seem like logic to me?


Here's the problem. What do you suppose the yo-yo string is made of?


[edit on 25-8-2008 by Parabol]



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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In this discussion we need to be aware that we're talking about non-quantum physics. When you get to the quantum level things get weird, but that's at the quantum level, not the planet level.

That being said, you can check out this article on entangled photons that 'communicated' at more than 100,000 times the speed of light.

I haven't finished the article, but I will say that this hasn't translated to sending information. It's the photons that 'know' each other, but the practical instant communication of useful information is not yet possible or understood. This is sort of old news as far as quantum entanglement goes but I figured it would help confuse things more.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 06:34 AM
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If gravity would be restricted to c, I just can't possibly imagine how the planets in our solar system can keep their orbits. The delay (which increases the further we go out) would sling the planets out of orbit in the picture I made in my mind.

an interesting article on gravity:

www.holoscience.com...

here's a mini snippet:


Electromagnetic waves are far too slow to be the only means of signalling in an immense universe. Gravity requires the near-instantaneous character of the electric force to form stable systems like our solar system and spiral galaxies. Gravitationally, the Earth ‘sees’ the Sun where it is this instant, not where it was more than 8 minutes ago. Newton’s famous law of gravity does not refer to time.


I advise you to read the whole thing, interesting as hell.

[edit on 26/8/2008 by KrisFromGenk]



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 11:28 AM
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Earlier someone mentioned that we should be able to travel faster than 'c' because there is always something faster, as in the mach barrier. The reason this is false (sorry man) is because the acceleration of an massive object to the speed of light will convert the matter into energy. It will cease to be matter. All of that energy would destabilize the energy which is holding the atoms of the spaceship or lifeform together. The only way to travel as fast, or faster, than 'c' is to circumvent the actual speed by using a wormhole or similar distance skipping phenomenon.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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EM travels by way of a medium and cannot go faster than c.

A particle given enough acceleration or voltage potential for
a charged particle to reach c or beyond is all that is needed
because once set in motion the object remains in motion.

Working with F = eE = ma = m dv/dt

and assume only a limited time potential dV/dt assume

dV = (m/e) dv, V = (cm)/e = .0016 volts

So I don't know why kelo volts were used for TV sets but
I might look up an old book.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 05:28 PM
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Depends on where you are. Gravity is seen as an acceleration of mass toward local neutral center, and on earth it's 32 feet per second/per second. On Jupiter the acceleration is much higher.

You are actually falling right now, the only thing stopping you is the floor, the earth's crust, etc. This acceleration is experienced as weight, because you are blocked from seeking the neutral center of the earth. If you could make it to the center of the earth, or the center of this local gravitational well, you would weigh nothing, because you found the punctum quietus, or in English "quiet point", and all acceleration stops there locally.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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The thing is that anti gravity can't help in going any where
due to the one over distance squared law.

Unless its fair to think of things other than what is known and
consider unknown things as real as in some other thread.

However if you consider the DTG ( Dynamic Theory of Gravity by
Tesla now locked away in a Los Alamos vault) you can go any
where in the universe.

Flight is done with voltage and electrical charges.
Once charges are created, momentum and directed forces are
immediately available and the reason for the many references
that the universe, the Cosmos or simply the armosphere
contains the forces and energy.

Evidently the ability to create charges by sparks and voltage has
been known for a century and is more useful than nuclear energy.
This can be on a small scale such that big electrical plants will no
longer be needed in the future.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by Setharoo
 

Gravity travels at the speed of dark.



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by Setharoo
 


You are asking the right questions. The answer given to me from someone I respect is, "instantaneous" and "incalculable". This same person also spoke of experiments he had conducted with frequencies is ranges too stupendous to calculate on modern computers without the aid of an arbitrary precision math’s library. Frequencies so high, that you start messing with the inner-core, deep down within atom, way past quarks what-have-you until such experiments escape control or measurement of any apparatus.

As for force and matter – they are one in the same thing. There is no separating the two. Matter is force held in bondage, and force is matter released. All force, is will-force and the Universe is held by it. Thus, it is true that not a single sparrow falls without God knowing about it, and yes he does know many hairs there are on your head, for he is not separate from you – but part of the will-force that is holding you together.

..just my 2 cents.



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by Setharoo
 


It was imagery...

The Earth is the YoYo, the Sun is your finger. The string represents an imaginary tether between the Sun and the Earth. Removing the Sun would instantly remove its Effect of Gravitation on the Earth. Therefore it is logic.

Put a kitty in a bucket, now spin the bucket like a gravitron ride. Notice how the kitty sticks to the walls. Now let go of the bucket, the kitty goes flying.



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 03:15 AM
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Gravity is not a force like magnetism. Gravity is the CONSEQUENCE of our traveling at tremendous speed.

This has been known for a very long time.

If gravity were a force, the Moon wouldn't be moving away from the Earth but would be falling towards it.

We must get ourselves out of Flatland. en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 04:07 AM
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I been taught that gravity is, through use of imagery:

Image you and someone holding a blanket out(this is plane of space/time) Now place a basketball in the middle of the blanket. Notice how it warps. roll a baseball past the basketball and note how it warps the path of the baseball.

Now how is that a consequence of high speeds?

Also, I was taught the moon was falling around the earth. Not being pushed away like you said. Its being spun around the Earth and Pulled toward the Earth. So its stays in one place because the the Equal and Opposite reaction.
So Gravity is a force.

[edit on 27-8-2008 by alundaio]

[edit on 27-8-2008 by alundaio]



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 05:03 AM
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Of course gravity is a force, I don't really understand the reasoning for why it shouldn't be considered a force.
Actually newton's law for calculating the gravitational force is fundamentally the same as Columb's law for calculating the force between to charges. Replace mass with charge and the gravitational constant with the electrostatic constant and it's the same equation, and both forces use the inverse square law.
Hmmm... seems like a clue to me.




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