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Originally posted by orangetom1999
reply to post by dr_strangecraft
What came across clearly in this speech is that this kind of secularism will brook no competition. This was clear to me. This is concealed totalitarianism.
I am not biased as i an not an amercian. What this guy just said makes sense. Theres been tooo many amendments to the bible that is NOT a direct source. You cannot honestly live your life by it.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature
Nonetheless...Mick..please tell me where the Constitution says it guarantees to each citizen a secular form of government or some such statement. Also please tell me where it states that the government can impose natures principles in lieu of peoples religious beliefs.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."
". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
Why do you assume that anything natural has to be Pagan or any other form of religion?
You are way off here. It doesn't guarantee to each citizen a secular form of government, it guarantees a secular government in general. Separation of Church and State. There is nothing about "natures principles" in the way you are thinking - Paganism.
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
If this was a Christian nation, why did the writers of the Constitution fail to mention it? Why is it not expressed clearly? Why, then, did they lead us into a direction of secularism?
How much more obvious can you get that the writers of the Constitution did not create a "Christian Nation"?
1. of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.
2. not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred ): secular music.
3. (of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.
4. (of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular ).
The Establishment Clause forbids the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion." 3 The Court [482 U.S. 578, 583] has applied a three-pronged test to determine whether legislation comports with the Establishment Clause. First, the legislature must have adopted the law with a secular purpose.
The statement you initially quoted used the term "natures principles or principles of nature"...not the word natural. You need some practice here.
This comes across quite clearly in Obama's speech in the video where he states " it is no longer sufficient for a person to state that this or that was discussed in church or what their preacher says or taught them.
We also know this by government allowing tax supports for church tithing or giving to the churches. This is a price support for churches.
But Mick...it says "In God We Trust" on the moneys!! Give me the name of the god of the US Government who is the Liar!!??
I agree that a legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion but there are two parts to this ...the second part often avoided by people looking for total separation....of even the ability of a people to practice and live to their religion. The second part says....nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof. This part is usually totally avoided in debates like this.
Here is one of your big problems with a secular government. However not even many church going Americans know that there is a office of Chaplain in the US House of Represenstives. As I recall the history of this tradition and office go back to the Continental Congress..before the Constitution.
A chaplain is typically a priest, pastor, ordained deacon, rabbi, imam or other member of the clergy serving a group of people who are not organized as a mission or church, or who are unable to attend church for various reasons; such as health, confinement, or military or civil duties; lay chaplains are also found in other settings such as universities.
Our government is secular. Don't believe me? Well, just go ask the Supreme Court:
YOU LIVE IN A SECULAR COUNTRY.
GET OVER IT.
You can twist words around as much as you want, doesn't bother me. There was nothing spiritual said in that quote, and there is no reason to believe he wasn't merely talking about the laws of science.
And it isn't. It is not sufficient for a person to say, "well I beat Jimmy up because he is gay and my preacher said that gays are full of sin". Obama is correct, that is not okay.
We also know this by government allowing tax supports for church tithing or giving to the churches. This is a price support for churches.
That's just ignoring the fact that churches are "nonprofit". Anything nonprofit is tax exempt. It's just tax law.
It means nothing.
It doesn't matter what part you agree to. That is not my quote, that is a quote from Thomas Jefferson. I did not write that the First Amendment created a wall of separation - Thomas Jefferson did.
So, just like the Office of the President, the office of the Chaplain is also vulnerable to be taken over by Muslims.
Uh oh, watch out Christians. Don't want more Muslims taking over your spots.
Originally posted by Irish M1ck
reply to post by orangetom1999
Okay. You live in a country whose government is secular. Fair enough?
Obama is a politician and a part of the government, and therefore has no reason nor responsibility to be religious, pretend that he is, or bend to its will.
[edit on 1/15/2009 by Irish M1ck]