Jesus was a Rabbi and an Insurrectionist

With a slightly confused look on his face he would most likely say “What are you talking about? I am a Rabbi.”

That is what I think he would say if he found himself face to face with his modern Christian followers and discovered they worshipped him as a deity in a “new” religion. He would be absolutely shocked.

I completely buy into the theory that Jesus was an insurrectionist who thought he was the messiah destined to start a revolution among the Jewish masses and free Jerusalem from Roman rule. He came into Jerusalem during Passover with the intention of starting the revolt that would overthrow the current government, only things went horribly wrong, and he was executed.

What followed was some of the greatest spin-doctoring in history, and truly a creative interpretation of what was otherwise a brave (though maybe not so well thought out) plan that ended in utter disaster. He was in fact one of several who thought he was the Messiah and believed it was his destiny to free Israel. When he ended up dead, it became pretty apparent to all of his Jewish followers that he was not the Messiah. He joined the ranks of many other Jewish revolutionaries that tried and failed around that time. End of story.

If Jesus the man came back today I am sure he would be utterly shocked, and I think he probably would not want to have anything to do with the crazy gentiles that worship him as a God, yet fail to follow his true religion, Judaism. He would probably live in Israel, surround himself with other devout followers of Judaism, and avoid the Christians whenever possible.

(It seems there is so much Christian propaganda lately I just thought a little balance was needed. If this viewpoint has been shared 500 times before I apologize for the redundancy. My knowledge on this topic is not at all deep, but then again that never stopped anyone on BTS from sharing their thoughts!).

Anyone that wants to read more on this theory, search for Jesus Barabbas

www.askwhy.co.uk...



[edit on 23-8-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610

I completely buy into the theory that Jesus was an insurrectionist who thought he was the messiah destined to start a revolution among the Jewish masses and free Jerusalem from Roman rule. He came into Jerusalem during Passover with the intention of starting the revolt that would overthrow the current government, only things went horribly wrong, and he was executed.

I think half of this statement is correct.
I think he wanted to overthrow the Jews who ran the Temple.
Look at how Jesus was treated by Pilot, the first time he saw him.
Pilot did not think Jesus was a threat to him.
Why did Pilot ultimately give him up for execution?
Because the Jews saw Jesus as a threat to their power, and turned it around to make it look like Pilot would be disloyal if he let Jesus go.
My theory was there were three people who were in line to be High priest, according to the legitimate system of priestly succession: John, the cousin of Jesus. Jesus. And James the brother of Jesus.
Joseph of Aramethia influenced Pilot when he became governor, to bypass the Caiaphas clan, who usurped the position by use of money and power.
Joseph persuaded Pilot to appoint Jesus as High priest because John had turned down the position, in favor of working against the system from outside.
Jesus only served one year and was replaced by another of the Caiaphas clan. He then went incognito to gather enough followers to retake the High Priesthood.
After Jesus was killed, he was no longer eligible to serve because he had been hung from a tree, making him cursed. James took over as High Priest and supported the Christian rule of the Temple.
James was eventually murdered and not long later the Temple was destroyed, after Jesus tryed to suppress the rebellion against the Romans.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I think he wanted to overthrow the Jews who ran the Temple.
Look at how Jesus was treated by Pilot, the first time he saw him.
Pilot did not think Jesus was a threat to him.
Why did Pilot ultimately give him up for execution?
Because the Jews saw Jesus as a threat to their power, and turned it around to make it look like Pilot would be disloyal if he let Jesus go.
My theory was there were three people who were in line to be High priest, according to the legitimate system of priestly succession: John, the cousin of Jesus. Jesus. And James the brother of Jesus.

Hmmmmm....you sound a bit anti-jewish there. Jesus was a Jew, and like many at that time he wanted to overthrow Roman rule. The jews would NOT have needed Roman permission to execute Jesus as a blasphemer, and if they wanted to get rid of him they would have done it via stoning, not crucifixion. Crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment, and it was used for the most horrific criminals and those that plotted against the Roman government.

www.trinicenter.com...

The reader must always keep in mind that when the Gospels were being written - much of which was during and after the Jewish revolt of 68-74 CE - the Hebrews had effectively ceased to exist as an organised social, political and military entity. The four canonical Gospels [as opposed to the other Jewish and Essene texts that were hidden or suppressed] were written and edited with the intention of shifting attention and blame from the colonising Romans to the Hebrews. All references to Roman atrocities had to be played down, glossed over and their weekly crucifixions of hundreds of revolutionaries had to be presented as sympathetically as possible.

According to the gospels, Jesus is initially condemned by the Sanhedrin who then bring him before Pilate and request that he pronounce against Jesus. Historically this makes no sense at all. In the three Synoptic Gospels [Mark, Matthew and Luke] Jesus is arrested and condemned on the night of the Passover, but by Judaic law the Sanhedrin was forbidden to meet over the Passover. Neither were they permitted to convene at night, in private houses or anywhere outside the precincts of the Temple. The Gospels give the impression that by hauling Jesus before Pilate, they were not authorised to pass death sentences. In fact, they were so empowered - by stoning, not crucifixion, in the case of blasphemy - with no need to go before Pilate at all. The very accounts of Jesus' arrest and execution gives some indications about the revolutionary - rather than the benign, spiritual character blissfully aloof from the events around him - person to whom the Jewish people pegged their hopes for deliverance from Roman domination.

www.trinicenter.com...

This simple fact speaks volumes. Jesus, for example, came not to change the Jewish Law, but to fulfill it. And as a Jew, Jesus believed in one God -- the idea of a divine Messiah would have been utterly unthinkable. To him and the Jews of his age, a "Messiah" meant nothing more nor less than "the anointed one", i.e. the duly consecrated and divinely endorsed king. Every king of Israel was regarded as a Messiah! But at the time of Jesus, there was no duly consecrated and divinely endorsed king, and thus no Messiah. The Jews were in fact looking for a Messiah in order to lead them to overthrow the Romans. But there was nothing intrinsically divine about such a figure. Rommel and a Panzer Division would have been quite adequate from the point of view of the Jews (although they would have preferred some spiritual, Jewish background of their commanders as well).

Paul, on the other hand, intent as he was on creating a cult, had to compete with a wide variety of established religions. In Paul's cult, Jesus had to assume the status of godhead comparable to other deities. Tammuz, for example, the god of ancient Sumerian and Phoenician mystery teachings, had been born of a virgin, died with a wound in his side and, after three days, rose from his tomb, leaving it vacant with the rock at the entrance rolled aside. Much of the Gospels also include specific elements of traditions surrounding Tammuz, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, Dionysus, and Zoroaster. Mithraism, in particular, postulated an apocalypse, a day of judgment, a resurrection of the flesh and a second coming of Mithras himself. Mithras was also said to have been born in a cave where shepherds attended him and regaled him with gifts. Finally, there is a passage in the Mithraic communion which states: "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

reply to post by Sonya610

Hmmmmm....you sound a bit anti-jewish there. Jesus was a Jew, and like many at that time he wanted to overthrow Roman rule. The jews would NOT have needed Roman permission to execute Jesus as a blasphemer, and if they wanted to get rid of him they would have done it via stoning, not crucifixion. Crucifixion was a Roman form of punishment, and it was used for the most horrific criminals and those that plotted against the Roman government.

When I say "Jews" I mean it in the way that it is used in the Gospels. On one hand were the Pharisees and then there were the priests of the Temple cult. They do not name them as such except for the ones that are singled out for blame. The High Priest and his group were the instigators against Jesus. The pharisees were very interested in Jesus and he took the time to talk with them and point out how they were wrong about certain things. Jesus wasted no time with the rulers of the Temple and had no good regard for them.
The Gospels say that the Sanhedrin had not the power to execute Jesus. They had to get permission from the Romans. They cryed out "We have no king but Caesar!" when Pilot tryed to let Jesus go. They presented Jesus as a traitor and that Pilot would be disloyal to let him go. So Jesus ended up being executed as a traitor.

reply to post by Sonya610


You said: " He was in fact one of several who thought he was the Messiah and believed it was his destiny to free Israel. When he ended up dead, it became pretty apparent to all of his Jewish followers that he was not the Messiah. He joined the ranks of many other Jewish revolutionaries that tried and failed around that time. End of story."

Not quite. He clearly stated that all who came before him were thieves and robbers. If you can't take him at his word for even that one simple line, how can you ever see the deeper things, he meant for you to see?

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Not quite. He clearly stated that all who came before him were thieves and robbers. If you can't take him at his word for even that one simple line, how can you ever see the deeper things, he meant for you to see?

Honestly I thought this thread would start more of a ruckus, then I realized I posted on BTS while others post inflammatory religious topics on ATS. Sigh.

But regardless, 2,000 years ago is really not that long ago. There is a lot of documented history and text regarding laws and forms of execution. And some things seriously do not add up.

But hey it does make sense as far as spin goes. At the time it was very common for humans to be made into Gods. It was in fact, quite common; Augustus, Tiberious, even Caligula...all made Gods. One could almost say it was a fad.

And if lots of people buy into the idea then it MUST be true. Rumor has it there are one billion Muslims. Any thoughts on that? Does popular equate to real? Or maybe you would like to inject your own "facts" regarding legitimacy of Islam? Please share. How does YOUR belief assure you? How exactly do you define reality from falsehood?


[edit on 24-8-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610

The main thing you're overlooking, (among others), is that the Torah predicted the Messiahs death BEFORE his return and subsequent reign.
He came to live a humble life, be despised by most and DIE for the ussurance of gentiles into the faith.

Many of His followers even thought he was about to destroy the enemies of Israel.
John became quite disillusioned, when he was thrown in jail and about to be beheaded.
He sent some of his adherents to go and ask Jesus "Are you the one, or shall we look for another?"
Peter, after Jesus was arrested, began to declare that he didn't know Jesus.
When Jesus was entering Jerusalem on the back of a donkey, Hebrews would cast palms in His way, thinking He was about to overthrow Rome and create a Millennium of peace!

Jesus WAS a Rabbi, in fact most of His followers called Him 'Rabbi'.

reply to post by Sonya610


Hey there!

you said: "But hey it does make sense as far as spin goes. At the time it was very common for humans to be made into Gods. It was in fact, quite common; Augustus, Tiberious, even Caligula...all made Gods. One could almost say it was a fad. "

Lol - you are right. It was the "in thing to do" to be a god or even god-like. The lady my screen name is named for, instilled in her child at a very early age, that his real father was a God. And it seemed for awhile, he was god-like because he became a mighty man and accomplished a whole heck of a lot in a short amount of time. But he died and his kingdom was split up. His mother did everything possible to try and protect her grandchild and the seed of his bloodline - but to no avail. They were all murdered by their own. You may be more familiar with her given name of "Olympius". Her little boy would become Megos Alexandros. He was great and he was a king - but not a god.

you said "And if lots of people buy into the idea then it MUST be true. Rumor has it there are one billion Muslims. Any thoughts on that? Does popular equate to real? Or maybe you would like to inject your own "facts" regarding legitimacy of Islam? Please share. How does YOUR belief assure you? How exactly do you define reality from falsehood?"

You know what Sonya? I honestly have never studied Islam. I don't even give it the time of day. I have no idea what makes them tick. I have no idea what they could quote to me - that proves how the living spirit works through Islam - or if it even does.

So that's where the line is drawn in the sand. The living Spirit of God is proof. And the proof is in the pudding.

reply to post by Sonya610

But hey it does make sense as far as spin goes. At the time it was very common for humans to be made into Gods. It was in fact, quite common; Augustus, Tiberious, even Caligula...all made Gods. One could almost say it was a fad.

As soon as the story went out from the Jewish lands and into the Empire people were trying to turn Jesus into a god. They missed the point of the use of the title Son of God. I think that is covered in the quote in your previous post.
I think it is a compelling story and I think about it all the time. A lot of fiction has been written about people who all of a sudden realize they are rightful heir to one thing or another. Like King Arthur being raised by Merlin and not knowing his father was Pendragon. So, what if you realized that you were rightfully king and high priest? After Judas Maccabeus and the Hasmonean dynasty, the two offices were combined. The last person who actually held that full position had miraculous powers. What would you do with these abilities and potential for supreme power? What he did in that situation seems illogical to a lot of people but he was looking to something higher than an earthly kingdom. That actually follows the example of his predecessor, who I mentioned.



[edit on 24-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by Sonya610
...he would most likely say “What are you talking about? I am a Rabbi.”

He was a rabbi. His followers even refer to him as such. What is your point?

I completely buy into the theory that Jesus was an insurrectionist who thought he was the messiah destined to start a revolution among the Jewish masses and free Jerusalem from Roman rule.

In your theory, then why are early Christians persecuted by the Jews if they were a revolutionary movement? For example, Josephus documents the High Priest and the Sanhedrin taking advantage of the death of Festus the Governor and having James the "brother" of Jesus killed by stoning.

So, what is the motive there? This is only one example of the tensions between Jews and Christians, which came to a head when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and Masada. What you are saying makes no sense historically, i.e. it is BS.

Originally posted by ScienceDadaIn your theory, then why are early Christians persecuted by the Jews if they were a revolutionary movement?

I said JESUS was a revolutionary. That has NOTHING to do with Christians. Jesus was Jewish, very Jewish, a Rabbi. I don't think he meant to start any type of new religion. He didn't plan to end up dead, he planned to free Jerusalem. It is no surprise that other Jews rejected the new cult that developed AFTER Jesus died.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
You know what Sonya? I honestly have never studied Islam. I don't even give it the time of day. I have no idea what makes them tick. I have no idea what they could quote to me - that proves how the living spirit works through Islam - or if it even does.

So that's where the line is drawn in the sand. The living Spirit of God is proof. And the proof is in the pudding.

Exactly, proof is in the pudding. You felt a spiritual buzz, and since you got hat buzz while practicing this faith, then you KNOW only YOUR version of God can give that buzz right and only YOUR God can be real, right? All others MUST be false.

Sort of like a 15 year old girl that falls in love with her first boyfriend. She has never dated any other boys, NO other boy has made her feel so smitten and happy, therefore she knows for a FACT this is her one true and only love, and she can't possibly ever fall in love with another guy as long as she lives.

Yup, she knows that for a fact, and no one can convince her otherwise. Well until they break up and she falls in love with boyfriend number two. lol

Originally posted by Sonya610
I said JESUS was a revolutionary. That has NOTHING to do with Christians. Jesus was Jewish, very Jewish, a Rabbi...

Wow, what a way to dodge the bulk of my argument. It sounds like you have convinced yourself of this, so great *have fun*. It quickly becomes obvious that you concocted a mediocre conspiracy theory suffering from confirmation bias, lacking falsifiability, and with a pathological need to single out and combat Christians.

I really wish the moderators would put a "waste of time" flag on some of these threads. After all, isn't the slogan for BTS "deny boredom"? It would make it easier to have constructive discussions for those of us who have something to actually contribute. :bnghd:

Originally posted by ScienceDada
Wow, what a way to dodge the bulk of my argument. It sounds like you have convinced yourself of this, so great *have fun*. It quickly becomes obvious that you concocted a mediocre conspiracy theory suffering from confirmation bias, lacking falsifiability, and with a pathological need to single out and combat Christians.

I answered your question directly, don't see how I dodged anything. Also I did NOT come up with this theory, I did not mean to imply it was my own. There are quite a different sources that discuss various aspect sof this.