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Karl Marx was a Practising Satanist
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reply to post by pause4thought
of course i understand that you are coming from a christ-centric point of view. i just feel that even that is dangerous, especially when posting an entire thread about history in a forum about facts and the truth. you know that christianity has not been proven a fact. you just know that you wholeheartedly believe it. i completely understand where you are coming from. but i see where other people here are coming from too. it just seems that in a place like this, you should not be using christ-eyes to explain history. i mean, you seem reasonable about that when you say this
but then i read back up to this
those two sentences seem contradictory since the second one obviously states that ALL occult is related directly to satan. and i just cannot help but wonder who decides what is occult, what might be meditation. the danger is that your next thread could be that hitler was a practicing satanist. he completely fits either one of your standards as such. and i am sure if i were to give it just a little thought, i could come up with a grand list of names of people in history that would qualify to you as a worthy headline "SO and SO was a practicing satanist." so where does that end? considering most of these people will actually share very little in their 'devil worshipping' pracitices.
i was mildly on the fence before but, given that you openly admit that your view is strongly skewed by your christian beliefs, and this is ATS. i have to agree that karl marx was not a satanist. not now. not today. not by anyone i know that is not born again, or baptist, or fundamentalist, or whatever else christians divide themselves into over this holy truth they all disagree on? see, if you are talking about UFOs here, people want pics and vids and will disect them to no end. they will be beaten into the ground until debunked. you tell a crazy ghost story here and have no evidence, no-one will buy it. if you have evidence, it will be picked clean too. on ats, everyone is expected to back up whatever they say with facts and evidence. you and i both know that you cannot reply to this post with any proof of god or christianities validity...so it does seem unfair to then use your christian
of course i understand that you are coming from a christ-centric point of view. i just feel that even that is dangerous, especially when posting an entire thread about history in a forum about facts and the truth. you know that christianity has not been proven a fact. you just know that you wholeheartedly believe it. i completely understand where you are coming from. but i see where other people here are coming from too. it just seems that in a place like this, you should not be using christ-eyes to explain history. i mean, you seem reasonable about that when you say this
To sum up: as a Christian I am not prepared to pretend that I don't think pagan practices in general have their dangers, or that occult practices such as tarot reading or holding seances are not asking for trouble. But with satanism we enter another level of danger altogether: the worshipper is in effect begging for contact with demons.
but then i read back up to this
As a Christian I believe all occult powers are the result of demonic influence, and that Satan stands at the head.
those two sentences seem contradictory since the second one obviously states that ALL occult is related directly to satan. and i just cannot help but wonder who decides what is occult, what might be meditation. the danger is that your next thread could be that hitler was a practicing satanist. he completely fits either one of your standards as such. and i am sure if i were to give it just a little thought, i could come up with a grand list of names of people in history that would qualify to you as a worthy headline "SO and SO was a practicing satanist." so where does that end? considering most of these people will actually share very little in their 'devil worshipping' pracitices.
i was mildly on the fence before but, given that you openly admit that your view is strongly skewed by your christian beliefs, and this is ATS. i have to agree that karl marx was not a satanist. not now. not today. not by anyone i know that is not born again, or baptist, or fundamentalist, or whatever else christians divide themselves into over this holy truth they all disagree on? see, if you are talking about UFOs here, people want pics and vids and will disect them to no end. they will be beaten into the ground until debunked. you tell a crazy ghost story here and have no evidence, no-one will buy it. if you have evidence, it will be picked clean too. on ats, everyone is expected to back up whatever they say with facts and evidence. you and i both know that you cannot reply to this post with any proof of god or christianities validity...so it does seem unfair to then use your christian
view in which to decide how to explain the past. do you see what i am saying? i am not knocking you or your faith, just within this particular arena.
As a Christian I believe all occult powers are the result of demonic influence, and that Satan stands at the head.
reply to post by Azrael75
It was not me, but mattguy who raised the issue 'Is this occult-related or Satan-worship?' I responded in a friendly manner: 'I don't see the difference, but feel free to lay out the difference as you see it'. You then asked me to explain my understanding, and that's what I've done. Any fair-minded reader will look back and see that I have not used this to push any agenda - I've just answered questions, admitting freely that my answers reflect a Christian understanding. I see nothing wrong with such an approach on ATS, or anywhere else for that matter. The mods are free to comment.
As to whether other historical figures, such as Hitler, were satanists, I would only make that claim if I came across evidence to that effect. So your suggestion I am the type of person who just throws such accusations around is baseless. This thread began with the presentation of evidence. The problem is not that there is no evidence, but that much of what has been written in response has focussed on anything but the evidence: definitions and accusations of bias.
Whether I am a Christian or in fact a paid-up member of the Communist Party actually has no bearing on the issue at the heart of this thread: there is evidence that Marx had first-hand knowledge of a satanist initiation ceremony, and that he wrote of his hatred for God. There is then the follow-up issue of whether this may help explain the hatred of many Communist governments for people of faith. I keep trying to get back to these two themes.
As I have said, I am in the process of gathering additional evidence, and invite others to do the same. I was just hoping for an informed discussion. I'm a little taken aback that my Christian perspective is being made such an issue of in what I assume to be a liberal forum where difference is accepted.
Incidentally I have studied communist ideology and the history of the movement as subsidiary subjects at degree level. Contrary to your assumption that someone examining history necessarily skews the facts because they have their own personal beliefs, I was specifically taught that even openly biased sources of evidence should not necessarily be discounted as unreliable, as no witness or historian is ever a tabla rasa. It is more a question of whether the source of evidence has integrity.
If your assertion that I am using my Christian view to explain the past is referring to the question of whether Marx was a satanist - it is simply baseless. If it is referring to the question of the extent to which this would explain Communist hatred for believers - yes, I suppose that is possibly of more interest to people of faith, some of whom are Christian. But seeing as this is the 'Conspiracies in Religion' forum I see no grounds for you to criticise me on that basis!
I have simply come across some evidence I believe deserves examination and discussion. Surely that's what ATS is for.
It was not me, but mattguy who raised the issue 'Is this occult-related or Satan-worship?' I responded in a friendly manner: 'I don't see the difference, but feel free to lay out the difference as you see it'. You then asked me to explain my understanding, and that's what I've done. Any fair-minded reader will look back and see that I have not used this to push any agenda - I've just answered questions, admitting freely that my answers reflect a Christian understanding. I see nothing wrong with such an approach on ATS, or anywhere else for that matter. The mods are free to comment.
As to whether other historical figures, such as Hitler, were satanists, I would only make that claim if I came across evidence to that effect. So your suggestion I am the type of person who just throws such accusations around is baseless. This thread began with the presentation of evidence. The problem is not that there is no evidence, but that much of what has been written in response has focussed on anything but the evidence: definitions and accusations of bias.
Whether I am a Christian or in fact a paid-up member of the Communist Party actually has no bearing on the issue at the heart of this thread: there is evidence that Marx had first-hand knowledge of a satanist initiation ceremony, and that he wrote of his hatred for God. There is then the follow-up issue of whether this may help explain the hatred of many Communist governments for people of faith. I keep trying to get back to these two themes.
As I have said, I am in the process of gathering additional evidence, and invite others to do the same. I was just hoping for an informed discussion. I'm a little taken aback that my Christian perspective is being made such an issue of in what I assume to be a liberal forum where difference is accepted.
Incidentally I have studied communist ideology and the history of the movement as subsidiary subjects at degree level. Contrary to your assumption that someone examining history necessarily skews the facts because they have their own personal beliefs, I was specifically taught that even openly biased sources of evidence should not necessarily be discounted as unreliable, as no witness or historian is ever a tabla rasa. It is more a question of whether the source of evidence has integrity.
If your assertion that I am using my Christian view to explain the past is referring to the question of whether Marx was a satanist - it is simply baseless. If it is referring to the question of the extent to which this would explain Communist hatred for believers - yes, I suppose that is possibly of more interest to people of faith, some of whom are Christian. But seeing as this is the 'Conspiracies in Religion' forum I see no grounds for you to criticise me on that basis!
I have simply come across some evidence I believe deserves examination and discussion. Surely that's what ATS is for.
reply to post by pause4thought
i dont know who mattguy is, you told me that it is all the same, i already quoted you doing so once. it all ends with satan at the head you stated. i never said you had an agenda. clearly you are putting words in my mouth. how can you not see anything wrong with the idea of entering an arena that prides itself on being about facts and proof with nothing but your faith to throw around as real answers to anything?
i never said you are the type of person to throw accusations around. where did i say or suggest that? i simply listed people that were heavily involved in the occult. you already made it clear that in your eyes that makes them the same as a devil worshipper. maybe instead of trying to prove that karl marx worshipped satan for no reason, you could read the vast plethora of info on hitler and his occult obsessions.
now it all becomese clear. there is evidence that he had first hand knowledge of a stanist initiation ceremony.
really? intiation by whom? into what church, religion, cult? what group held this initiation? can you please elaborate on this evidence.
you go on to explain that this makes sense next to communisms disdain for faith? i am sorry can you explain how atheists with no faith could worship the devil that they refuse to believe in?
here, let me take that martyr from you. your christian perspective as you call it is not the matter. it could be any faith. the point is, that you are in a place about facts and proof and hard evidence, weaving a tale that is made up of "facts" that come from nothing but pure faith. faith and proof are antithetical are they not? so you are welcome to be christian all you want. it just seems that if you plan to base you 'facts', 'evidence', 'history', and everything else on nothng more than something that you believe only due to faith, then it seems more fitting to do so in a place more in tune with faith and spiritualaty that relies on absolutely no proof.
It was not me, but mattguy who raised the issue 'Is this occult-related or Satan-worship?' I responded in a friendly manner: 'I don't see the difference, but feel free to lay out the difference as you see it'. You then asked me to explain my understanding, and that's what I've done. Any fair-minded reader will look back and see that I have not used this to push any agenda - I've just answered questions, admitting freely that my answers reflect a Christian understanding. I see nothing wrong with such an approach on ATS, or anywhere else for that matter. The mods are free to comment.
i dont know who mattguy is, you told me that it is all the same, i already quoted you doing so once. it all ends with satan at the head you stated. i never said you had an agenda. clearly you are putting words in my mouth. how can you not see anything wrong with the idea of entering an arena that prides itself on being about facts and proof with nothing but your faith to throw around as real answers to anything?
As to whether other historical figures, such as Hitler, were satanists, I would only make that claim if I came across evidence to that effect. So your suggestion I am the type of person who just throws such accusations around is baseless.
i never said you are the type of person to throw accusations around. where did i say or suggest that? i simply listed people that were heavily involved in the occult. you already made it clear that in your eyes that makes them the same as a devil worshipper. maybe instead of trying to prove that karl marx worshipped satan for no reason, you could read the vast plethora of info on hitler and his occult obsessions.
Whether I am a Christian or in fact a paid-up member of the Communist Party actually has no bearing on the issue at the heart of this thread: there is evidence that Marx had first-hand knowledge of a satanist initiation ceremony, and that he wrote of his hatred for God. There is then the follow-up issue of whether this may help explain the hatred of many Communist governments for people of faith. I keep trying to get back to these two themes.
now it all becomese clear. there is evidence that he had first hand knowledge of a stanist initiation ceremony.
really? intiation by whom? into what church, religion, cult? what group held this initiation? can you please elaborate on this evidence.
you go on to explain that this makes sense next to communisms disdain for faith? i am sorry can you explain how atheists with no faith could worship the devil that they refuse to believe in?
As I have said, I am in the process of gathering additional evidence, and invite others to do the same. I was just hoping for an informed discussion. I'm a little taken aback that my Christian perspective is being made such an issue of in what I assume to be a liberal forum where difference is accepted.
here, let me take that martyr from you. your christian perspective as you call it is not the matter. it could be any faith. the point is, that you are in a place about facts and proof and hard evidence, weaving a tale that is made up of "facts" that come from nothing but pure faith. faith and proof are antithetical are they not? so you are welcome to be christian all you want. it just seems that if you plan to base you 'facts', 'evidence', 'history', and everything else on nothng more than something that you believe only due to faith, then it seems more fitting to do so in a place more in tune with faith and spiritualaty that relies on absolutely no proof.
reply to post by pause4thought
really? how many of your classes entailed books that were written with greek gods as true entities and reference points and therefore perspective with which to see through. in fact, find me any historian the will tell you that a religiously biased book of history is no more skews than one biased simply by man. please tell me you can find one historian that will tell me that since all history is biased by the author, ones that also use an imaginary man that noone ever proved to relate their stories, ie karl marx worship another imaginary being we have no proof of. it is one thing to change the outcome of a battle on paper, or change the hero of the story, but to add imaginary deities and then also their rules, stories, and perspecitives, is something else. if you have half the education you claim, you know better than to even try arguing that biased authors have the same level of BS as someone who claims anyone worshipped a deity that is ad of yet, unproven history.
any of that evidence prove this devil he worshipped? what about the organized satanic religion he was initiated into? what was it? who were they?
and i know i already asked once but can you please explain to me how marx worshipping the christian devil explains why communists are atheist? either they hate god or do not believe in him.
this is why faith and history do not mix. atheist do not worship satan. sorry. it just does not work that way.
dont take this as knocking your faith or your expressions of it, but just for the sake of ATS style arguments. ok first prove this devil he worshipped. he cannot worship something that does not exsist can he? you believe he exsists, in fact your entire thread relies on the exsistance of the devil. so start there.
Incidentally I have studied communist ideology and the history of the movement as subsidiary subjects at degree level. Contrary to your assumption that someone examining history necessarily skews the facts because they have their own personal beliefs, I was specifically taught that even openly biased sources of evidence should not necessarily be discounted as unreliable, as no witness or historian is ever a tabla rasa. It is more a question of whether the source of evidence has integrity.
really? how many of your classes entailed books that were written with greek gods as true entities and reference points and therefore perspective with which to see through. in fact, find me any historian the will tell you that a religiously biased book of history is no more skews than one biased simply by man. please tell me you can find one historian that will tell me that since all history is biased by the author, ones that also use an imaginary man that noone ever proved to relate their stories, ie karl marx worship another imaginary being we have no proof of. it is one thing to change the outcome of a battle on paper, or change the hero of the story, but to add imaginary deities and then also their rules, stories, and perspecitives, is something else. if you have half the education you claim, you know better than to even try arguing that biased authors have the same level of BS as someone who claims anyone worshipped a deity that is ad of yet, unproven history.
If your assertion that I am using my Christian view to explain the past is referring to the question of whether Marx was a satanist - it is simply baseless. If it is referring to the question of the extent to which this would explain Communist hatred for believers - yes, I suppose that is possibly of more interest to people of faith, some of whom are Christian. But seeing as this is the 'Conspiracies in Religion' forum I see no grounds for you to criticise me on that basis!
I have simply come across some evidence I believe deserves examination and discussion. Surely that's what ATS is for.
any of that evidence prove this devil he worshipped? what about the organized satanic religion he was initiated into? what was it? who were they?
and i know i already asked once but can you please explain to me how marx worshipping the christian devil explains why communists are atheist? either they hate god or do not believe in him.
this is why faith and history do not mix. atheist do not worship satan. sorry. it just does not work that way.
dont take this as knocking your faith or your expressions of it, but just for the sake of ATS style arguments. ok first prove this devil he worshipped. he cannot worship something that does not exsist can he? you believe he exsists, in fact your entire thread relies on the exsistance of the devil. so start there.
Those who are aware of these things are not in the least surprised that Communist governments have proved to be vehemetly anti-God, resulting in the imprisonment, exile and even execution of untold masses of people who held to their faith in God.
[edit on 22/8/08 by pause4thought]
Show me one true communist government and we can continue this conversation.
maybe i should have said...
in a place about hard evidence and proving facts, perhaps making christian-centric claims about aything requires first proving the validity of christianity.
i mean if i were eplaining something via quarananal theory and stating this is the way things are, would i not have to first prove that theory is any good before i can begin to claim anything based on it is any good?
in a place about hard evidence and proving facts, perhaps making christian-centric claims about aything requires first proving the validity of christianity.
i mean if i were eplaining something via quarananal theory and stating this is the way things are, would i not have to first prove that theory is any good before i can begin to claim anything based on it is any good?
reply to post by Azrael75
this is assuming that an atheist is an athiest. a person worshipping satan/lucifer could quite easily claim there is no God.
david
atheist do not worship satan
this is assuming that an atheist is an athiest. a person worshipping satan/lucifer could quite easily claim there is no God.
david
Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by Azrael75
atheist do not worship satan
this is assuming that an atheist is an athiest. a person worshipping satan/lucifer could quite easily claim there is no God.
david
that is just stupid. then he would NOT be an atheist would he???????? just killing that argument. noone was talking about lying devil worshippers.
Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by Azrael75
atheist do not worship satan
this is assuming that an atheist is an athiest. a person worshipping satan/lucifer could quite easily claim there is no God.
david
As Satan is God's foil, he'd pretty much have to believe in God.
Personally, I think Satan gets a bum rap. All he's saying is that God is a bit of a tyrannical dictator. Which he is.
I've been mulling over creating a topic about "the real Satan" but I know it'll turn into an evangelical quagmire that the Christians just won't shut up about.
In reading this thread, it occurred to me that many posts are lumping people together i.e. Christian, satanist, atheist, communist, etc. I think that
the point of it all is this:
Just because you sit in a garage doesn't make you a car. lol
Seriously folks...It is better to look at the fruit(actions) of a person to find out what they truly believe. Labels are just that...Labels! Words are meaningless if corresponding actions don't follow. Just because a Catholic priest is a leader in a "church" per se doesn't make him a follower of Christ. If he is a molester of children, then he is not a true believer.
In fact Jesus Himself said:
www.biblegateway.com...:15-29;&version=65;
Matthew 7:15-29 (The Message)
15-20"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.
21-23"Knowing the correct password—saying 'Master, Master,' for instance— isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience—doing what my Father wills. I can see it now—at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, 'Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'
24-25"These words I speak to you are not incidental additions to your life, homeowner improvements to your standard of living. They are foundational words, words to build a life on. If you work these words into your life, you are like a smart carpenter who built his house on solid rock. Rain poured down, the river flooded, a tornado hit—but nothing moved that house. It was fixed to the rock.
26-27"But if you just use my words in Bible studies and don't work them into your life, you are like a stupid carpenter who built his house on the sandy beach. When a storm rolled in and the waves came up, it collapsed like a house of cards."
28-29When Jesus concluded his address, the crowd burst into applause. They had never heard teaching like this. It was apparent that he was living everything he was saying—quite a contrast to their religion teachers! This was the best teaching they had ever heard.
Apparently Karl Marx was a charismatic leader. I am not sure why it is important to know if he was an avowed Satanist or not.
btw Communism itself is not an evil thing, but IMO atheistic communism is.
Just because you sit in a garage doesn't make you a car. lol
Seriously folks...It is better to look at the fruit(actions) of a person to find out what they truly believe. Labels are just that...Labels! Words are meaningless if corresponding actions don't follow. Just because a Catholic priest is a leader in a "church" per se doesn't make him a follower of Christ. If he is a molester of children, then he is not a true believer.
In fact Jesus Himself said:
www.biblegateway.com...:15-29;&version=65;
Matthew 7:15-29 (The Message)
15-20"Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don't be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.
21-23"Knowing the correct password—saying 'Master, Master,' for instance— isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience—doing what my Father wills. I can see it now—at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, 'Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.' And do you know what I am going to say? 'You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don't impress me one bit. You're out of here.'
24-25"These words I speak to you are not incidental additions to your life, homeowner improvements to your standard of living. They are foundational words, words to build a life on. If you work these words into your life, you are like a smart carpenter who built his house on solid rock. Rain poured down, the river flooded, a tornado hit—but nothing moved that house. It was fixed to the rock.
26-27"But if you just use my words in Bible studies and don't work them into your life, you are like a stupid carpenter who built his house on the sandy beach. When a storm rolled in and the waves came up, it collapsed like a house of cards."
28-29When Jesus concluded his address, the crowd burst into applause. They had never heard teaching like this. It was apparent that he was living everything he was saying—quite a contrast to their religion teachers! This was the best teaching they had ever heard.
Apparently Karl Marx was a charismatic leader. I am not sure why it is important to know if he was an avowed Satanist or not.
btw Communism itself is not an evil thing, but IMO atheistic communism is.
reply to post by drevill
The unimpeachable evidence of Marx's satanism is in his own official portraiture that he sat for very late in life as a very old man. It proves unequivocally that he was not an atheist and was a satanist.
He uses the paramount Illiminati-Masonic hand signal: The Claw. It is where one palm placed on the breast is occulted under the lapel of his coat jacket. There can be no coincidence or mistake. There is only one meaning to this gesture, and it is in the world famous icon photo of Marx. Check Wikipedia or any where. For those able to identify- it is clear as the sun.
The unimpeachable evidence of Marx's satanism is in his own official portraiture that he sat for very late in life as a very old man. It proves unequivocally that he was not an atheist and was a satanist.
He uses the paramount Illiminati-Masonic hand signal: The Claw. It is where one palm placed on the breast is occulted under the lapel of his coat jacket. There can be no coincidence or mistake. There is only one meaning to this gesture, and it is in the world famous icon photo of Marx. Check Wikipedia or any where. For those able to identify- it is clear as the sun.
Yeah, labels. Like Republican and Democrat. Liberal or Conservative. Tha'ts precisely why Christ said you will know someone by his/her fruit. Actions
speak louder than words. It is also noted that Marx had a strong relationship with Giuseppe Mazzini, and Italian Illuminist Freemason. It's not a
Christian-anit-Christian battle. Or a Chrisitan-Satanist battle. It's a battle between those who believe in a good will Creator, and those who
oppose. The Satanists in power(Illuminati, etc.) acknowledge The Most High, but they are at odds with him. All the while, they are continuously trying
to get the masses to not believe in anything spiritual or supernatural(atheism). This is part of the reason for the creation of Communism. The twofold
reason for this I believe, is that they are trying to prevent mankind from reaching its destiny, divinity and total union with our Maker, and to leave
the masses supremely susceptible, to the antichrists' display of spiritual power when it happens. In my opinion, the elite believe it is easier for
someone who has no belief in any spiritual/supernatural existence to be swayed at the site of spiritual feats of power from a demonic origin, than
say, someone who believes in a Creator. Whether, you be Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, etc.
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