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Why won’t god heal amputees?

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posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Revelation 7:9

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"


NoturTypical, I'm not going to play the "I just don't understand" game that we both have seen on BTS!

OK?

I DO AGREE that Rev 7:9 has a multitude, which no man could number.
I DON'T agree that this means (necessarily) "millions".

The largest number we have of "Saints" (combined...Old and New Testament), is in Jude 14:
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,



And PreTribGuy, I'm not going to play the "Let's also rely on apocryphal scriptures" to prove our points. Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch, which, early Christians deemed wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Also a good point to note, Koine Greek had no word for "millions". Other versions state "ten thousands upon ten thousands", just like "great multitude" and a"multitude which no man could number". all describe a vast number of people.

Believe me, I could number 10,000 people in less than 2 hours.

You're twisting scriptures to suit your argument, what Jude, and Enoch were simply saying is that these saints were so great in number that it was unfathomable to them. Enoch didn't use a Hebrew equivalent for modern day "millions" in the OT Time. They said "tens of thousands" or "thousands upon thousands" back then.



[edit on 31-8-2008 by NOTurTypical]




posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Becasue, there may be a few that gifted today to actually be speaking in tongues today, but no one heals people today, no one raises the dead today, etc..


...and you KNOW this because?



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Few" what percentage would you consider to be "few" 3%? 1%? .5%?

What percentage would you consider to be "few"?


I don't know that there was any given number of people (given in the Bible) alive before the flood?

Well, anyway, only Noah and his immediate family were saved from the flood. And Lot had (most of) his family saved in the end.

Were their others saved in THOSE DAYS?

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

and...

Luke 17:28-30 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by PreTribGuy]



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Becasue, there may be a few that gifted today to actually be speaking in tongues today, but no one heals people today, no one raises the dead today, etc..


...and you KNOW this because?
Come on, maybe it would be easier if you showed me proof of this.

And "IF" it happens today, it's becasue a believer prayed to God for it to happen according to His will. That person didn't have the "gift" to do it himself to whomever he chose to.

That happened during the first century, it will happen before our Lord returns again. But during our time right now the work of the Holy Spirit is different.



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



And PreTribGuy, I'm not going to play the "Let's also rely on apocryphal scriptures" to prove our points. Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch, which, early Christians deemed wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit.


The verse I quoted is in our (apparently?) common agreed upon Scripture.

ARE you are TRYING to say that Jude 14 quotes a NON-Canonical book, and thus is irrelevant to the discussion?



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Few" what percentage would you consider to be "few" 3%? 1%? .5%?

What percentage would you consider to be "few"?


I don't know that there was any given number of people (given in the Bible) alive before the flood?

Well, anyway, only Noah and his immediate family were saved from the flood. And Lot had (most of) his family saved in the end.

Were their others saved in THOSE DAYS?

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

and...

Luke 17:28-30 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

[edit on 31-8-2008 by PreTribGuy]


Hey, stay on topic. We were discussing those saved during the tribulation, not how life would be here on Earth before the rapture.

We're discussing the "multitude" that would emerge from the Great Tribulation. And I do agree that "few" will be saved, but based on the vast number of humans that have ever walked the globe during it's 6,000 year history that number could be in the billions if only 1% are saved. And it definitely could be in the millions that come out of the tribulation considering almost 7 billion are alive right now.

The point is this, the number saved is too great a number for any man to count. And it's for God alone to know.



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



And PreTribGuy, I'm not going to play the "Let's also rely on apocryphal scriptures" to prove our points. Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch, which, early Christians deemed wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit.


The verse I quoted is in our (apparently?) common agreed upon Scripture.

ARE you are TRYING to say that Jude 14 quotes a NON-Canonical book, and thus is irrelevant to the discussion?


That is EXACTLY what I'm saying, that Jude 14 is from the "Book of Enoch". Paul also quotes a pagan poet, are we to assume that pagan poet's words are divinely inspired as well?

Why did you delete the OTHER part of my post that also states that when Enoch wrote about his vision there was no Hebrew word for "millions"? That they commonly said "tens of thousands" or "thousands upon thousands".

You are twisting scripture, what Enoch said, and what Jude quotes simply states this: 'A vast number greater than I can count'



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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Ahem, a pertinent point you deleted when you replied:


"Enoch didn't use a Hebrew equivalent for modern day "millions" in the OT Time. They said "tens of thousands" or "thousands upon thousands" back then."

[edit on 1-9-2008 by NOTurTypical]



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:13 AM
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PreTribGuy,

Book of Enoch, Chapter 2:

"Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal 1 for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him. 2"

The Book of Enoch



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Come on, maybe it would be easier if you showed me proof of this.


I cannot, NOTurTypical, I really cannot.
I cannot "prove", over the Internet, NOR IN PERSON(!) that the gifts of the Spirit are REAL!

I can't.


And "IF" it happens today, it's becasue a believer prayed to God for it to happen according to His will. That person didn't have the "gift" to do it himself to whomever he chose to.


Again,
I cannot "prove" to you or anyone else on BTS that the gifts of the Spirit aren't in effect...even now...today...in 2008.

I just can't.

I can only testify that I WAS a champion for those who say, "They have CEASED!".

And I lost.

You said:

And "IF" it happens today, it's becasue a believer prayed to God for it to happen according to His will.


Yep.

I agree.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by PreTribGuy
 


And we go right back to me pointing out that exceptions to the rule being used to define the rule is a logical fallacy.

I can't find ANY instance with a Google search of a man being raised from the dead.

The Bible does however say that prior to the Lord's 2nd coming these gifts will be greatly poured out on the world like they were during the first century.

"Early and latter rains".

I do not deny that somewhere in this Earth a man might have the gift of healing. I'm stating that the vast majority of those claiming it now are charlatans and false prophets. Also somewhere in the world there might exist a man who can raise the dead just by his words, ther might be one.

But one here, and one there do NOT define the rule, which will come at the time appointed by God just before Christ returns.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:28 AM
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And I lost.


And you lost what? A debate? People lose debates all the time, perhaps you were not prepared well?

At the time you "lost" were you fully aware of the teaching of the "early and latter rains" in scripture?

Perhaps you are basing your reasoning you "lost" because the other person in the debate quoted Paul, which was written during the first century/early rains timeline?

Explain this "lost" statement you have made a couple times plz.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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PreTrib,

Argument aside, watch these 2 short videos from YouTube. They are by Perry Stone, a fantastic prophecy preacher.

He is one of my favorites because of his unique understanding of the Jewish culture, history, et cetra. It's imparative to know about the Jewish culture to understand some aspects of the Bible, too often we look at translated Hebrew into English describing an ancient culture we are not familiar to:

Well, let me know your thoughts after you watch these 2 videos.

Video 1

Video 2



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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PreTrib,

Here is another great video set by Parry also:

Video 1

Video 2



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:54 AM
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alot of people who want to believe that the gifts of the holy spirit are still active forget too that satan and his kin perform signs also

matt 24:[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

mark 13:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

2 thess 2.[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

the OP of the thread makes a good point, if jesus could heal amputees, why cant christians today??



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Why did you delete the OTHER part of my post that also states that when Enoch wrote about his vision there was no Hebrew word for "millions"?


I didn't notice this prior to this post. If you are appealing to "higher criticism", I yield and offer no rebuttal. I am here to write about the given text we have in the Bible.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



I do not deny that somewhere in this Earth a man might have the gift of healing. I'm stating that the vast majority of those claiming it now are charlatans and false prophets.


I AGREE with you on this!

HOWEVER, just because "you or me or some news agency" doesn't REPORT IT or PROVE IT...doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

EVEN IF all the "reports" you and I hear aren't able to be substantiated...does that mean that the gifts of the Spirit aren't "for today"?


(Perhaps?) from a later post(?)

I can't find ANY instance with a Google search of a man being raised from the dead.


Try a search for Jesus? God raised Jesus from the dead, didn't He?


But one here, and one there do NOT define the rule,


You (NOTurTypical) keep talking about "rules". As though they are some sort of "incantation" that nominal Christians can speak and get no answer for...except for some.

THIS idea, that you bring to the debate, that somehow the SCARCITY of MIRACLES, that you (or I!) can bring to the discussion is somehow...PROOF?

As in,
"I've never been able to prove, myself, a REAL MIRACLE, thus they MUST have ended in the past...probably around Paul's time, or earlier"

I said It earlier, I LOST that debate!



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 01:40 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Explain this "lost" statement you have made a couple times plz.


I can't (I don't THINK I can) to your satisfaction.

I just "lost the debate".

I was ZEALOUS and I lost. Scripture won. God won. GOD was vindicated.

Put plainly:
"A GIFT was bestowed upon me" and I could NEVER AGAIN say it wasn't so.

I was (somewhat) put into the same "position" as Paul was in Acts 9:4-6.

I cannot deny what happened to me any more than Paul could deny what happened to him...

Paul lost.
I lost, also.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 01:48 AM
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Originally posted by PreTribGuy
THIS idea, that you bring to the debate, that somehow the SCARCITY of MIRACLES, that you (or I!) can bring to the discussion is somehow...PROOF?

As in,
"I've never been able to prove, myself, a REAL MIRACLE, thus they MUST have ended in the past...probably around Paul's time, or earlier"

I said It earlier, I LOST that debate!


but in this case it is..

jesus was well known for healing and so were the apostles. it wasnt a secretive thing that happened every once and awhile. again, getting back to why, if it was to show that jesus was who he claimed to be, then wouldnt it help christians today the same way?

if god was extremely selective and secretive about healing today, wouldnt it show favoritism on his part?

i just dont think it adds up.



posted on Sep, 1 2008 @ 03:43 AM
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when we find miricles we deny them, do we not?


shine.yahoo.com...


read this its great and in accordance with the bibles where when asked we pray and no dancing a yelling etc.

www.broadcaster.org.uk...



“Professor Morse, when you were making your experiments at the university, did you ever come to a standstill, not knowing what to do next?”

“Oh, yes, more than once.”

“Then what did you do?”

“I’ve never discussed this with anyone, so the public knows nothing about it. But now that you ask me, I’ll tell you frankly - prayed for more light.”

“And did God give you the wisdom and knowledge you needed?”

“Yes He did," said Morse. “That’s why I never felt I deserved the honours that came to me from America and Europe because of the invention associated with my name. I had made a valuable application of the use of electric power, but it was all through God’s help


www.wacral.org...

how many lives has dot dot dot dash dash dash dot dot dot saved?


One day a farmer was walking home and heard screams.cries for help.

he shot off and found a boy struggling to free himslef from a bog and rescued him. later that day the boys father went to the farmers house to give him a reward as he was a nobleman.

The farmer refused the money saying he didn't want paying for helping. during the conversation the farmers son came to the door also.

the noble man asked if this was the father son and the farmer confirmed it was. The noble man offered as a reward to pay for education to the same level as his own son.

the farmers son went on to graduate from st marys hospital medical school.

years later the noble mans son was stricken with pneumonia but was saved by penicillin.

the farmers son was Alexander Fleming and the nobleman's son was Winston Churchill.

miracle in my eyes.



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