Is it time that we stop debating the UFO subject and admit SOMETHING is going on?

Originally posted by nomadrush
So where do we go from here?

Now, hold your horses. Do you have some bit of evidence that conclusively proves this UFO stuff is all about "aliens?" Now, that's something I'd like to see!

Because as far as I know, we may have gotten to the point where we are pretty much in agreement that something odd is going on, and that people have experienced some weird things, but we have absolutely no idea what those things are.

Aliens? Not that I know of. Time travelers. Maybe, but who knows? Odd projections from our minds, or other realities? Sure, except there's no proof of it.

Nope, we're stuck at an interesting point. Tons of evidence. No proof of anything.

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by nomadrush
So where do we go from here?

Now, hold your horses. Do you have some bit of evidence that conclusively proves this UFO stuff is all about "aliens?" Now, that's something I'd like to see!

You said yourself there is tons of evidence. An extraordinary amount of this tons of evidence is about aliens in relation with UFO's, regardless of your opinion.

Because as far as I know, we may have gotten to the point where we are pretty much in agreement that something odd is going on, and that people have experienced some weird things, but we have absolutely no idea what those things are.

It doesn't need to be cleared with you. The premise is that this tons of evidence must be enough for us to at least move forward on some sort of platform. Denying any platform whatsoever is counter productive. Why don't you let people like nomadrush explore a line of thought that starts with the basic premise that aliens are real and you can start with a platform of we have no idea.

Aliens? Not that I know of. Time travelers. Maybe, but who knows? Odd projections from our minds, or other realities? Sure, except there's no proof of it.

Proof? We're only talking about some sort of progress but that progress ain't happening all the time there is plausible deniability.

Nope, we're stuck at an interesting point. Tons of evidence. No proof of anything.

Nope, you're stuck at an interesting point. Clearly, others feel it's time to move on, they have seen, read, heard enough to know beyond a reasonable doubt.

Tons of evidence you say. Proof is a culmination of evidence so your proof is right there, you're talking about a smoking gun and are in denial until you get it. Either way, lack of your own personal proof is no reason to try and deny others a vehicle to progress who have proof from the culmination of evidence they have been exposed to.

reply to post by Nohup


Nohup - perhaps you need to go back and read my original posting again?

Ross

reply to post by nomad rush


Ross, deep thanks for this thread! Way to go!

Personally, it will take a MAJOR MAJOR amount of time, manpower and massive amounts of data storage, equal to that of the US government ,to launch such an endeavor. Sign me up!!! It will take, a completely Independent research group to at least bring the evidence to the public and keep it there in their face sorta speak either by website or some sort of monument.

Problem is, as you said, people won't believe until they have a personal experience. 90% of the people that refuse to believe NEED either 2 things that will change their minds or turn them into believers (1) Must physically SEE a FLYING SAUCER or 'alien' and have completely NO explanation of what it could be. (2). A report from the governments of the world to get on TV and tell them it's real.

Since being a member on ATS as of March of this year, people that do not believe and viewing strange phenomena on YouTube, hear someones testimony of seeing or hearing such phenomena and can't explain it or try and come up with some explanation for it, toss it aside as most others do in saying "it's a hoax" or "now that was a nice story" or insert any other remark other than trying to earnestly help come up with some sort of explanation.

TO THOSE THAT DO TRY...THANK YOU!!

I work with 6 different engineering departments, shipping Department which includes Shipping Documentation Compliance, Product Planning & QA/ on a daily basis and when presented with certain situations/requests in trying to resolve a problem, I'm forced to ask myself questions of logic and common sense. In doing light FA(failure Analysis) work, questions become more intense.

This is where I LOVE UFO Hunters. It's science, witnesses, and logic put on a level playing field and tear it apart. It will take a group like that to present ALL the evidence but on a scale about 1000 times larger in order to have some kind of credibility on the subject, to where people can see for themselves to at least bring them to a place of acknowledgment there is something out there that is not of this galaxy based on the data presented.

As my saying goes, You'll ALWAYS be a skeptic unitl you have a personal experience. ALWAYS.

S&F for ya!

reply to post by Komodo


Thanks Komodo.

Whether one believes or not, I still think it is impossible to dismiss something that so many people have reported seeing. It's fine for people to say "but there is no PROOF" because that is true, but to say there is no "EVIDENCE" that is just plain wrong!

I guess only time will tell on this one.

Ross

reply to post by nomadrush


Never thought of it that way before. Interesting words, Evidence & Proof.

Click here for more information.

It’s indeed time to admit something IS going on.
Many people have had their own Encounters ,‘ felt’, saw, were take by or got telepathic messages from other life forms in UFO’s.

There are a few obstacles to tackle tho.

1. FACTS: difficult to get so called HARD evidence bc the non-believers will always come up with an other demand for X-tra proof.
2. Facts need a DEFINITION first but debunkers will try to include everything and even then they won’t be satisfied in the end.
3. Evidence of pix, film, documents or conversations with witnesses / people won’t be enough for everyone. Those ppl NEED to have their OWN experience.
4. The experience: people who have had an UFO experience (sighting / abduction etc) can tell others about it but it’s impossible to explain to others how to PERCEIVE it.
5. IF governments have ACTUAL info (which I do believe they have) they will try at any costs not to reveal it. Knowledge is power. Power and economics go hand in hand to control the masses. They will NOT tell humanity unless they are forced to do so or when massive UFO’s will land all over the Globe.
6. GLOBAL FOUNDATION: one idea is to start a Global Foundation for spreading UFO AWARENESS all around the world for all kinds of people. (The Disclosure Project can be a good organization to share info with, although the DP is still very USA / money orientated)
7. More publicity about this issue!!! In ALL media. Over and over again bc people learn by repetition.
8. More documentaries about people who have had an experience in relation to the UFO Phenomena.
9. Get the UFO issue out of the ‘ hippy’-robe that often hangs around this subject.
10. Organize MORE and ALL over the world HUGE UFO get-to-getters to share UFO experiences with low budget. Make it a Spiritual (NOT religious!) happening.


Oh Yes I do realize that it will attract loonies, liers, con-artists and spies from the ‘ other camp’ but that’s just how it is. That's just one more reason to promote the UFO Phenomena and be open minded.



* Anything is possible and it wud be when people start to let their fears of the unknown go.

reply to post by nomadrush


Why jump straight to the pararell universe idea? Why not just the idea that it's our own governments with some brilliant, secret technology. It would mkae far more sense considering the amount of money that goes into military research on calssified projects, and even more sense when you consider the amount of money that "goes missing" into that black budget fund.

Either way i think you're quite correct, there is to much witness testimony, frm sane people, trained obervers, people who lose a lot when they admit what they saw. On top of that we have some good photos, videos and incidents like the belgian triangle, washington flyover, rendalsham forest.


I agree, it's about time people admittd something is going on.

Have to agree that there is alot of evidence saying that something is "going on" , the problem however, as i see it, is there only one thing "going on" or are there several instances of happenings?
Interdimensional travellers?
Time travellers?
Extraterrestrials?
Technology of terrestrial origin?

I think it would be a good thing to get these things sorted out first.

An investigation of the phenomena:
Is it happening? (That one is quite obvious)
What is happening?
From where?
Why?

We know something is happening (some of us do), but we do not know why, or what it is.


[edit on 23-8-2008 by Balez]

I've spent several seconds pondering why so often the initial assumption is that "off-world aliens" are visiting us. It has to do with the frame of reference available to the witnesses. As humans, we have a wealth of cultural data in the form of films, publications, astronomy, et al, that gives us some familiarity with the concept of "life elsewhere". We've seen other planets; sent probes to their orbit, atmosphere, and surface. Astronomy has shown us the immense proportions of all of existence. We know those "other" places are there and we know there are quite probably an unlimited number of them. Popular movies and science fiction shows and describes to us "aliens"; their cultures, motives, and methods of travel.

There is far less of a reference to inter-dimensional events. Fiction has attempted to describe inter-dimensional occurrences. Yet we have no "real-world" data to back up this meme....so it is a less strong data point in our "frame of reference".

My point is....far less importance is given to the concept of these events being a result of phenomena that is and always has been sharing our "space", so to speak, and every now and then, intentionally or not, manifesting within our sphere of perception. Normal events in our own "universe" may as well leak into theirs, causing just as much consternation, argument, and discussion.

Disclosure is only the beginning. What we're really looking at is Contact (with the RIGHT nonhumans, assuming there are also the wrong kind) and, the most breathtaking prospects of all, the end of secrecy-BASED government(s) and organized religions period... Or the end of any political influence of the latter. The biggest question is: Are enough people able to forsake beliefs in favor of facts? I damn sure am.

Something is happening. But are we even capable of understanding what it is?

We are limited to 5 primitive sense organs that aren't really all that efficient. In the grand scheme of things; man is still a primitive organism.

What we experience may just be the tip of the iceberg and the overall events may be beyond our grasp cognitively.

Originally posted by whaaa
the overall events may be beyond our grasp cognitively.

Precisely....

I won't bother to re-cap my thoughts....I'll simply refer you to this post for further expansion of the idea.

[edit on 23-8-2008 by MrPenny]

reply to post by nomadrush


Too often we get caught up in the prove or disprove game. As if proving or disproving something would lead us somewhere...?

The position of skeptic and believer both start from an unscientific assumption that the answer is already owned by the person and their job is to "prove" that point.

Whether we are being visited by aliens, or there are secret propulsion systems being tested is not going to change whatever you prove or disprove. The objective reality, whatever it may be does not depend on your "ownership" of the truth. What changes is how you feel about yourself and whether you feel "right" or better than others for possessing knowledge nobody else has, in one word, EGO.

So, why don't we move past the ego and the attempts at "owning" the truth, and instead focus on what is worthwhile?

The evidence that exists, although not conclusive for everyone, is compelling enough to prompt questions. Questions that only the foolish are quick enough to jump with a "guess" that they are convinced is the answer.

Any person with just a moderate amount of curiosity would be compelled to find answers to those questions.

And we could all be united in investigating what those answers may be. We may sometimes be compelled to have a hypothesis, presented as such, but the questions are the true focus.

This is how criminal investigations are conducted. Criminal cases often deal with the same conditions: Strong circumstantial evidence, puzzling questions and scarce or non-existent physical evidence, which is desired and sought, but not always found.

We could all be united as investigators. To deny the most puzzling questions of the UFO subject is either ignorant of what the questions are, or an a-priori denial without any curiosity for what the answer may be.

Here are some interesting questions that I have not found an answer for:

What is the origin of the UFO footage over mexico city?
What was really seen in Varghina Brazil in the late 90's?
Who is responsible for the cattle mutilations, human or not? and for what purpose?
What was unsuccessfully shot at during the "battle of Los Angeles" in the early 40's?
What was seen in belgium in 1989?
what was seen over the O'hare airport in 2006?
What was seen over Stephenville?

I could go on, but the list is too long. Many people will jump at giving "answers" but in fact will just provide more hypotheses.

Finding answers to those questions is not only a matter of satisfying curiosity, it is a matter of national security, especially since some of those objects have been in close proximity to aircraft and over civilian airspace

Any efforts to distract or discourage people from investigating what this may be should be looked at with suspicion.

-rrr

I think that first we have to find out if we can trust our senses that we have. Is what we see actually what is there...everything around us is only visible because of light and how our eyes decipher that info. We may be missing the entire picture by focusing on ufos. Everything we see is just signals sent to our brain and those signals become a picture in our mind...what are we really surrounded by?

Originally posted by riotact1
I think that first we have to find out if we can trust our senses that we have. Is what we see actually what is there...everything around us is only visible because of light and how our eyes decipher that info. We may be missing the entire picture by focusing on ufos. Everything we see is just signals sent to our brain and those signals become a picture in our mind...what are we really surrounded by?

I think that no intelligent discussion can take place without some basic level of trust. Above a certain threshold of resolution I can certainly trust my eyes. Beyond it, I cannot.

While we can certainly use this as a dividing line of what we consider a case worthy of investigation, once the dividing line is drawn, there remain many cases for which the answer to your question is yes. Can people trust their own eyes when they read a collection of radar returns? yes. Can people trust their eyes when they see an object less than a quarter mile away and in broad daylight? yes. Many reports occur under those conditions. Granted you could always argue that people are lying (and who knows, there may be cases where people lie), but if you do, you have to stand by the accusation, not brush it aside as "perceptual limitation" unless you have a good reason to presume so.

If we were to choose to distrust our senses even while inside reasonable thresholds of perception then we can't trust anything at all and might as well become solipsists and think the entire "reality" is an illusion.

-rrr

When I look at a starry night, I see infinite. When a deeply hearted skeptic/realist points at that same sky and claims, without a doubt, that there is no such thing as aliens/ufos/dimensions/etc. I can't help but laugh. Really, really, really hard.

To say that our world, lush with animal and plant life along with a barbaric race called humanity, is the only source of life in an infinitely dead universe is way beyond naive. That line of thinking concludes that our world should be just as dead as everything else.

I look forward to the day where traveling to neighbouring worlds to meet new species is no different than traveling to neighbouring countries to meet new people.

reply to post by rickyrrr


An interesting post rickyrrr, but you forget one important fact - most of us ARE investigating these things. I myself have spent years investigating strange phenomena in a scientific manner and have made several TV shows/series' about it. But as humans, our very being determines that we try to work everything out and understand it, and to do this, we must investigate it.

There is much evidence in scientific circles now of multiple dimensions and universes, just look at the work of Prof Jim Al Khalilli at Surrey University in England who recently went on TV and stated that we live in multiple universes and inside a "Matrix"!

The reason I jumped to "inter-dimensionality" is not for the sake of something t say, it was because my own research points t this explanation, as I presented at Laughlin earlier this year.

It is interesting to see people's thoughts in this thread, and I think the general consensus of opinion is that we need to know what the governments know - IF INDEED they know anything more than we do!

Ross