Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians

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posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by tezzajw
 



I feel absolutely no sympathy for any troops who are deployed overseas. There's nothing heroic in it.

I'll remember you said that in the event America ever comes under enemy fire.
I'll come to your home and see which hole you're hiding in.

Firstly, I don't live in America. If anyone comes rolling down my street, then before I die, all I plan to do is to snipe at least two of them. That way, I've got a 2 to 1 kill ratio. Maybe I'll try and take out a few more, seeing that my kids are too young to fire a gun. I'm not going to be invaded. I'll be dead first, taking out as many invaders as I could.

Secondly, if America's borders were under fire, then I would expect America to fight back and repel the invaders. Just as the Iraqi 'insurgents' are doing against the American invaders and just as the Taliban are doing against the Invaders in Afghanistan.

Anyway, I won't drag the thread off topic. McCain, bombing civvies - yeah right, pin a medal to his chest. He was a tool for the war-pigs and now he wants to be the chief war-pig.

These people don't grow any more mature than children squabbling in a school yard. Watch school age children fight amongst themselves, over nothing and realise that the entire planet's politicians do exactly the same thing. At least the weapons manufacturers and the bankers still make their profits...




posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


:shk:

Okay my apologies, i didn't see you from Australia mate- ill remember that if Australia ever comes under attack and begs the united states for help.

I don't agree with pointless wars, but i also don't blame the soldiers for them.

Do you know WHY no other countries have tried to attack the Unites States since the 1940's? (pearl harbor?) Because of the fierce determination and lethal force of our soldiers.

Because of the military.
It scares the # out of anyone who opposes it.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Okay my apologies, i didn't see you from Australia mate- ill remember that if Australia ever comes under attack and begs the united states for help.

Patriotism will be the death of this world. Until people recognise that national borders are designed to segregate and control us, we'll always be caught up in skirmishes.

If Australia is ever invaded, then I'm screwed. So like I typed in my previous reply, I'll happily fill as many invaders full of bullet-holes before they take me and my family out. If the rest of the probably 10,000,000 other able-bodied Aussie citizens did the same thing, then you would think that we would have some fighting chance.

Unfortunately, some people would prefer to live as slaves, than die for freedom.

I'm done with this thread - I've got nothing more to add to the topic, so I won't derail it.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 08:17 AM
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The reason many people can not digest Michael Moore is because when he brings and issue he hit that inner core of many Americans that is called Patriotism specially those patriots that are misguided to begin with.

The ones that as long as American has the stamp on it see no evil hear no evil.

Even if the issue that Michael Moore is bringing is true and realistic.

The Question posed on the OP is realistic and one that bring a moral issue.

But while our nation politicians claims to have moral duties, more often than not the moral duties are riddle with corruption, private agendas and a lot of campaign and lobbyist money.

God figure what the patriots in this nation think they are supporting anymore.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Johnmike
Why are we debating the moral issues surrounding the Vietnam War? Why are we trying to smear McCain for his participation in it?


And for those of us who are ignorant, ex. Moore and whatever fool is posting a thread based on his words,


John McCain was bombing a thermal power station when he was shot down.




Collateral damage, maybe. But hundreds or thousands??
The OP should be ashamed.


Surely you can back that up with facts?

Oh wait - you can't. You're making things up.

/sarcasm - What was the collateral damage? How many weere killed? If you want others to be specific be prepared to do so yourself.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by Night Watchman
What Michael Moore should be asking is, "why does anyone even care what I think?"

I'm not surprised that this fat blob doesn't consider anyone heroic who isn't serving him pork chops.


And why should I care what you think if the above quote is the sum total of your rationale as to why we should ignore him.

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons surrounding Michael Moore, but at least he puts his opinions out there and is prepared to defend them. If he were to attack McCain by your rules of engagement, he'd simply say he's old and he'll listen to anybody who slides him a shot glass of geritol.

So...who has the higher standards?



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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Budski thanks for raising a very interesting point, presidential race or not.

I do understand this issue to have many sides. I appreciate the service of the men and women who choose to enter into the armed forces because they are choosing to make an incredible sacrifice.

I also, on the other hand, do not understand why being a soldier, in any capacity, it such an 'honorable' job.

Sacrifice aside, the job of the soldier is by and large to KILL. Now I can not think of many people anywhere who raise killing up on a pedestal.Making the choice to become a KILLER for the government and in the name of ones country is, as I already mentioned, a huge sacrifice, but does this negate the fact that these men and women are killers?

Especially when you factor in 'collateral damage' unintentional or intentional.

Why is it that McCain's having been a bomber pilot and being shot down, captured, and tortured makes him a more VIABLE candidate? Could someone please explain that to me in very clear and realistic terms?



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by budski
 




What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians?

there is no heroics in that per se...


he's brave for joing the military and flying around getting shot at

but killing humans is the dumbest thing on planet earth..



stand back and look at war...honestly



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by Animal
 


It' honorable because they volunteer. They volunteer so you do not have to be drafted. They volunteer to do the job no one else wants; a job not everyone can do.

You guys can stay in your beds like the person from ausfailia. He has a military of rough men protecting him and his countries interests.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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Read no response so don't know what others wrote.

I have no problems with Micheal Moore or his politics. He has first amendment rights. He does have learn impairments as he repeats things that have been proven wrong, time and again.

This time he raise a legitimate question about McCain. While the mission may or may not have been heroic, it's his actions after being captured, that stand out. This is where McCain's moral fiber stands. He was tortured and abused by our enemies. He could have been released but chose to stay to protect those around him. This is the action of a hero. His deeds speaks volumes for service people everywhere and should be used as an example of what is right with our military facing very adverse actions.

Micheal Moore doesn't understand this as he has never put his life on the line in any manner. He has no interest in others unless there is personal gain for himself. He has taken stands to promote his own self interest, but any fool can do this.

More importantly, I'll defend his right to ask any question, but I seriously question his desire to defend my rights in anything.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 12:56 PM
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I always questioned that as well.

Good for Michael.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:19 PM
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What McCain did in Vietnam doesn't change my mind. McCain served his country and did what he was ordered to do, so now it's his turn to order some people around.
In my opinion, serving or not serving your country is not a qualification for President. But serving your country while being President makes a big difference. I wish there was another candidate for the position because I really don't want either one of them as President. For once I would like to see a presidential candidate that has little or no money but has worked hard all his life. I want to see a candidate that can actually say he knows what us blue collar workers need and are talking about.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by budski
John McCain was shot down whilst bombing a heavily populated part of Hanoi (his own description) - so can anyone tell me what IS heroic about that?


It's not like he was doing it intentionally, he was following orders...what is so heroic about the bombers in World War 2? They had more collateral damage than that of Vietnam? So are they too deprived of being deemed heroic? Do you take medals away from anyone who ever unintentionally killed a civilian? This is pretty stupid logic if you ask me. War should be avoided, how about we start there, instead of saying those who have been in war are not heroic if they were around civilians.
Michael Moore is a joke, the only thing I've seen him do is being grossly overweight while criticizing our healthcare system, and making films that take things out of context. I don't like John McCain's politics, but let's not act like his service was nothing at all...especially when Michael Moore is saying it as he eats his next Big Mac in the comfort of his mansion.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by yellowcard]



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


Michael Moore the King of Spin and Lies


Using a person as disgusting as Moore to try and smear anyone else, whether true or false, requires one to learn how it feels to be a snake in the grass. Nothing personal against you budski, I just can't stomach that guy for some reason and some of his lies and spin are sooooo obvious it makes one wonder how he has even a single fan on this planet?

Attacking McCain on this topic is as low as it gets. How incredibly desperate some people must be to resort to this. McCain is a Man; Moore is a sissy little pile of vomit with a fat head who lies for a living. Moore could not get elected raw sewage manager and he is a valid source for anything?

My response has nothing to do with who he attacked but everything to do with what a slime bucket Moore is. Even when he is right he is so disgusting I'd believe the opposite just to spite him. When I see him being interviewed I have to avert my eyes just keep from vomiting and even then a little bile finds its way into my mouth. Ooooooooooooh! I just tried to imagine touching his putrid flesh and I had to run to the bathroom just in case.

Laying Moore aside
attacking McCain in this way on this issue will backfire immediately and the net result will be more votes for McCain not against. It has zero relevance to the election and does not speak to any real issue so it is just a spiteful attack. Its a new low for Moore and I smell the slimiest operatives the Democrats have in their ranks behind it. This is no Swift Boat and it won't work.

Did I mention that I don't care for Moore



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by stikkinikki
Surely you can back that up with facts?

Oh wait - you can't. You're making things up.

/sarcasm - What was the collateral damage? How many weere killed? If you want others to be specific be prepared to do so yourself.


And what's Moore backing his statement up with? Nothing, but all hail Lord Moore, keeper of the truth, right?


www.azcentral.com...



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Frankly, War is War. Nothing good comes out of it. McCain was doing a job that was assigned to him. Is he a hero? Depends on who you ask.

I will say this. In my opinion, Moore has had his "fifteen minutes". His first several films were worthy, but lately he just wants to recapture the press he once had.

Let me ask you though. If it weren't for the thousands of innocent civilians killed on 9/11, would Moore be as popular as he is today?

Hmmmmmm



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by Night Watchman


Look, I happen to believe those who are willing to defend one's country are heroic. They didn't make the policy. They don't get to choose the actions they take. They are simply doing their jobs and because they do, the citizens of their country can feel safe (except the paranoids who hide under the bed because they see govt conspiracies at every turn.



I'm a little late in this thread but I have to address this quote from you. I DO NOT and WILL NOT ever consider someone heroic for doing THEIR JOB! The job they signed up for and are being PAID, YES PAID to do. You want a hero, think about the guy who jumped on the subway tracks to save a child a couple of years back in NY. He wasn't PAID to do that. Think about the people that risk their lives everyday to do something nice for someone else even though it's NOT THEIR JOB! That is a hero. Doing what you are getting paid to do is not heroic.

Merriam webster defines it as this:

Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: \ˈhir-(ˌ)ō\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hērōs
Date: 14th century
1 a: a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b: an illustrious warrior c: a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d: one that shows great courage
2 a: the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b: the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3plural usually heros : submarine 2
4: an object of extreme admiration and devotion : idol

That to me DOES NOT define McCain.

My own definition of hero is "to go above and beyond the call of duty"

Enough said.

to Michael Moore for saying what I would say if my small voice could be heard!



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
My response has nothing to do with who he attacked but everything to do with what a slime bucket Moore is. Even when he is right he is so disgusting I'd believe the opposite just to spite him.


...so, I'd guess the phrase "Deny Ignorance" isn't exactly up there on your family crest, then.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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What I like about Moore is that he gets the issues out there. He admits that his comments are biased. The media is so biased towards the right and as he says, he has no reason to represent that side in any of his arguments as it's so well represented already.

As for war, I think they've all been huge humanitarian disasters. Despite the agreements after WWI at the Hague that countries should not puposely attack civilian populations, that seems to be precisely what happened in WWII and later wars. Germany bombed London. England wiped out Dresden. The U.S. fire bombed Tokyo and nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Relatives of mine died in WWII on both sides of the conflict. I fault the political and military leaders on both sides for the unnecessary civilian deaths. They argue that since civilians help the war effort by working in military industries, that they can be considered legitimate military targets.

I was once considering joining the air force but the thought of having to obey stupid orders that would result in civilian deaths would not appeal to me. I think you have to have a very cold attitude towards people to be a military bomber or fighter pilot. I've been to several classic jet conventions at U.S. air force bases and have seen videos where enemies are bombed by F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, etc. Laughter and happiness prevail during these videos. It's not like they even consider it a necessary evil, they take enjoyment out of seeing a group of people getting killed by a cluster bomb. It all just makes me ill.


[edit on 22-8-2008 by ghofer]



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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This thread makes me feel like defending McCain.

I realize that the man is a very poor choice for Presidency, yet look at the choices we have laid before our table.

If you cannot vote for the candidate, then vote against the one you would least like to see take the throne of democracy.





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