Originally posted by Voxel
What the above means is that human life has far more value to all of US than other forms of life. See how it works?
Jon

Oh....NOW I see, because without PEOPLE humans couldn't survive. Well actually individual humans could survive, at least for a while.

But animals and other species are NOT needed for survival. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, assuming we could live without air and food and such. No animal or insect life would mean no pollination, no crops, no breathable air, no...well...sheesh...no human life.

Okay so maybe we should include bees on that "superior species" list, along with other pollinating insects huh? I need to write this down, make a list, so I will know how to prioritize.

[edit on 25-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by BlackOps719

Just dont pretend like human beings are such a blessing to this planet and beyond reproach because the fact of the matter is we are a parasitic menace to every living thing around us.

Given all that, I'd still choose a human life over an animal life. It's simply the right thing to do. I have pets myself, and I like to think they're intelligent and loving creatures, but a great deal of the affection we feel for them is simply the result of our projecting human-like qualities upon them.

We talk in silly voices for them, we make there paws move in human-like gestures, and we name them to give them a personality of their own. there's nothing wrong with any of that either, as long as we recognize it for what it is. They don't really talk, or make hand and arm gestures, and they only recognize the names we give them because of the sound of our voice. We don't do these things with pigs or chickens because they're not cute or cuddly, and we see them for what they are animals, and act accordingly.

I only take issue with someone who thinks an animals life is more valuable than a person's. You don't strike me as being that type of person, but I have to wonder why you'd take sides with someone who would place their dog's life above that of your own children..

Originally posted by Sonya610
Newsflash, not all humans are capable of doing that. There are plenty of humans in many part s of the world that can only claim the use of FIRE as the distinguishing factor that separates them from their fellow animals. They do not build anything beyond a rudimentary mud hut, they simply eat, sleep, breed, hunt/gather and sometimes fight.

Maybe not all humans can do these things, but no dog in all the world can do even one of them.

Now conversely there are ant and termite colonies that build very impressive little cities for themselves, and live in highly structured social orders. If it is about "building things" I guess the ants and termites would be more "self-aware" then many of the homosapiens inhabitng this planet.

Do you also have an ant colony that you're obsessed with too?


[edit on 26-8-2008 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
an officer who did his job yet failed to go above & beyond his job description and show empathy to a speeder who most likely disturbed him by bailing out of the car babbling about "she's dead" and waving his arms around.

I agree with you that the couple was driving a little too fast for everyone's safety. Although i must say that there are plenty of times that drivers are going well over the speed limit 70-80 miles an hour on the expressway during times when there is much heavier traffic, than was present when these people were driving.


If my dog were choking on something and i couldn't dislodge it i would frantically be trying to get him to the vet too, however i seriously doubt that i would be doing 95. I will admit though that i would be panicked, and i think that's what thier problem was they were panicked.


The officer was doing his job, that i'm not debating. However i believe he could have had a little more understanding for their situation. They were watching a member of their family choking to death, couldn't save him, and were trying desperately to get him some help. Most people in a situation like that just can not think rationally.


Where i do disagree with you is the fact that i don't believe that it would have been going "above & beyond" his job description to show a little empathy to these people. Even if he didn't feel the need to show empathy, he was WAY out of line in what he said about it being just a dog and easily replaced. Although he may not have felt the need to show compassion, he was wrong to make such a callous, cold hearted statement to people that were traumatized over their dog choking to death in front of them.


However i won't give the award for coldheartedness to the officer, that goes to you. It takes a REAL BIG man to be able to stomp a tiny 10 lb dog you must be one heck of a human being.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
And it's a well known "fact" that dogs don't go to heaven.

Just where exactly is the proof of that "fact" ?

Did God come down from heaven and announce to the world that dogs don't get in?

Have you personally taken a round trip to heaven and seen this "fact" for yourself ?

Or are you just basing this on your own assumptions ?

So, just to clarify, if you were driving along minding your own business and somebody plowed into a vehicle carrying you and/or members of your family, speeding because they were trying to get their choking dog to the vet, what would your reaction be? It seems that more than a few of you have the reading comprehension skills of an autistic. I never said I'd just walk up to a speeding motorist with a poodle for no reason and slaughter their dog. I said IF THOSE MORONS HAD HIT ME AND TRIED TO USE A CHOKING DOG AS AN EXCUSE FOR THEM ENDANGERING ME & MY FAMILY, I'd have killed the dog. If I was some cold blooded monster some here seem to think I am or the derainged psychopath I've been accused of, dontcha think maybe, just maybe I'd have said I would have pulled the CC pistol I have on me most of the time and dropped a couple rounds into the dog's owners as well as the dog?

My effing God, people, I've seen some of you same ones that are flapping like old wet hens at me defending Saddam Hussein in other threads. Saddam Hussein you know, the Butcher of Bahgdad? Dude killed thousands of his own people and you've defended him? Recall? Ringing a bell? I advocate kicking a dog vs endangering human lives and suddenly I'm the Devil incarnate?

Originally posted by LLoyd45
or perpetrate horrible atrocities against their fellow man.

LOL you said that as if it were an admirable trait


I think that is one of the things that makes the animals above us, the fact that they DON"T perpetrate horrible atrocities against each other.


And yes dogs are thinking, feeling beings, they have emotions just like we do. They feel love, fear, sadness, happiness, they mourn the loss of a loved one. They ARE self aware, and yes they DO dream, my dogs dream all the time.


I think dogs carry out acts of kindness all the time. There are plenty of cases of dogs keeping lost children alive by providing body heat, etc.

As far as what people were taught in church, i remember being taught that when God flooded the earth he made sure that Noah saved the animals, must've been a reason for that. Maybe he thought that they were more worthy than we were.

Its just a dog that were talking about.
But if humanity would die out, the world would still exist.
If all animals would die out, the worlds ecosystem would collapse, meaning we all would die.
So in that case id have to say that animals are more important than humans.
If you dont care about live in general, you only care about yourself.

I believe that both were in the right and both were in the wrong. The policeman was right to pull over the car, but wrong for detaining them when he should have provided escort. The owner was wrong to speed but right in thinking he had to to save a life be it human or animal.

Whatever happened to extenuating circumstances? Is there no such thing any more? If that was me I would damn well go as fast as I felt safe driving to get my dog to the vet. I would have accepted any ticket given to me graciously AT THE DESTINATION and commend the officer for doing his job. I would NOT however, allow the officer to detain me to write a ticket while I'm listening to my dog gargle and writhe in the struggle to breathe.

How can people be so emotionless and devoid of heart that they would allow an animal to die when they have the power to stop it. The owner did the right thing by pulling over when he was flashed, why could not the policeman have shown compassion and provided escort to a vet? Absolutely disgusting.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
They don't really talk, or make hand and arm gestures, and they only recognize the names we give them because of the sound of our voice.

Ahhh…so you are capable of judging whether they are self-aware, whether they have a heart and soul based on how they ACT. Wow. What a gift. And because they act different than YOU, because they communicate differently than YOU do, because you have no clue how to read them and no understanding of the many many ways in which they DO communicate, you assume they they are empty shells.

You would have made a great early explorer, you and your high and mighty judgements regarding what “looks and communicates in a sentient way”. Yeah I am sure when you came across “savages” you would have been the first to point out “obviously they cannot be compared to, or considered equal to civilized man.” You could have justified your viewpoints in so many ways; “They don’t wear clothes, their primitive mindset does not recognize God or even have a concept of true marriage, their language is some gibberish that doesn’t even resemble a decent spoken language, they practice blood rituals that would horrify decent men, they are incapable of writing, they are easily frightened by firearms and other weapons like a scared animal might be. They completely lack morals and any semblance of reason or humanity. They are obviously less developed as such we can do as we like with them”.

Another poster on here suggested you “get a dog”. NO! Do not ever get a dog. You remind me of so many around here. They get dogs, and when things turn bad, like their home is foreclosed on they leave the dog chained up in the basement to starve to death and they simply pick up their things and move.

And why? Well those people have their priorities straight. They have their precious kids to worry about, they have a lot of other far more important things to focus on. They would probably say it would be “stupid” to waste their time dropping Fido off at a shelter, why waste the gas? Its just a dog so just leave it. Who cares if it starves for weeks before it is found. Its just a dog.

Like many of the people in New Orleans when Katrina hit. They fled and didn’t give a damn about their dogs. Worse yet weeks later when some went BACK to their ruined homes they would find the dog that had been starved for weeks and was near death. Some simply put the weak and dying animals, still breathing, out on the curb with the rest of the trash. They had bigger things to worry about, they had their kids to think about, and dogs were certainly the LEAST of their concerns.

Tell me again how humans are so special. How they are so divine by nature and as such above every other form of life.

Originally posted by chise61 If you wanna stomp something with your big ol Harley lugs, then stomp the guy that was driving, not the poor dog.

Ahhh...but stomping the poor little dog is easier. Stomping the driver would carry risk, even if the driver was at fault. The driver might fight back, or the driver might press charges. Best to choose the weakest and most helpless when a fit of anger strikes and something needs to be stomped to death.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
Nah brother Im not on anyones side here, I just have a profound love for animals. It isnt that I would value an animals life over a human child's, not at all. I just wanted to make clear the point that dogs and other beloved companions are very aware, they feel and think and experience joy and pain just as a human does.

My cat's like a member of my family too, and I'd do everything I possibly could to save him if he were injured, but I'd draw the line at placing his well-being over that of another person whether I knew them or not.

I don't think animals are senseless, unfeeling creatures, but they lack the intellectual ability to form truly meaningful relationships. They may experience a sense of loss at an owners passing, but it's not the same feeling of grief that humans experience. It's s the lack of an external stimuli that they've grown accustomed to that they feel. There's nothing metaphysical involved in the process.

To write that off as unimportant is human arrogance.

Arrogance is an entirely human attribute that animals are also incapable of experiencing, just like the knowledge of good and evil,cruelty, or altruistic love for one's offspring.

Also, please remember that for some folks out here that pet is all they may have. What may appear to be a plain old ordinary maingy dog to you could very well mean the world to someone else.

I realize that for some people, their pets are all they have in the World, and that's sad. I worked as a mental health therapist in the past, and saw this phenomenon quite frequently.

the majority of these individuals had poor social skills, and were incapable of forming normal, healthy relationships with other people. They compensated for their deficiencies by investing all their time and energy bonding with animals. They perceived them as being less judgmental, and therefore an acceptable source of companionship.

In the long run, it proves to be very unhealthy state. Eventually the lines become blurred as to what constitutes an appropriate or inappropriate relationship with an animal, and they start relating to them in very inappropriate ways emotionally, physically, etc.

[edit on 26-8-2008 by LLoyd45]

Retarded, weak and just plain stupid and ignorant human (and of course he's a cop too) says:

"It's just a dog. You can buy another one. Relax."

If I'd actually believed in some of those made up gods out there, I'd pray for someone to take this weak POS out and then of course his family cos, well, with his retardedness and rather dumb mentality one shouldn't take the chance of one of his offspring to continue his ignorance...

I really hope it just doesn't stay with empty threats...

Neversin.

Originally posted by Sonya610
Ahhh…so you are capable of judging whether they are self-aware, whether they have a heart and soul based on how they ACT. Wow. What a gift. And because they act different than YOU, because they communicate differently than YOU do, because you have no clue how to read them and no understanding of the many many ways in which they DO communicate, you assume they they are empty shells.

No Sonya, I see them for what they are animals. No matter how much you'd like to think of them as sentient creatures like humans, they're not. They have no sense of right or wrong, they feel no compassion for their fellow animals, and they're driven by millions of years of instinct, not reason.

You would have made a great early explorer, you and your high and mighty judgements regarding what “looks and communicates in a sentient way”. Yeah I am sure when you came across “savages” you would have been the first to point out “obviously they cannot be compared to, or considered equal to civilized man.” You could have justified your viewpoints in so many ways; “They don’t wear clothes, their primitive mindset does not recognize God or even have a concept of true marriage, their language is some gibberish that doesn’t even resemble a decent spoken language, they practice blood rituals that would horrify decent men, they are incapable of writing, they are easily frightened by firearms and other weapons like a scared animal might be. They completely lack morals and any semblance of reason or humanity. They are obviously less developed as such we can do as we like with them”.

I'd treat them as human beings, and respond in kind to their actions. If they were peaceful, and presented no danger to me or others, I'd allow them their right to their existence just as I would anyone else. After all, they're humans and made in the likeness of God. They experience love, hate, joy, sadness, guilt, fear, and a connection to a higher power like all sentient beings do. They're concept of religion may be different from mine, but it's not really my place to judge it's rightness or wrongness.

Animals have no sense of a higher power, only the will to survive. Their whole existence revolves around eating, sleeping, and the excretion of bodily waste.

Another poster on here suggested you “get a dog”. NO! Do not ever get a dog. You remind me of so many around here. They get dogs, and when things turn bad, like their home is foreclosed on they leave the dog chained up in the basement to starve to death and they simply pick up their things and move.

I have no desire to own a dog, so don't worry yourself in that regard. Though I'd never harm one unless they posed a threat to me, I have no love for them either. I've had too many bad experiences with them to feel any great affection for their kind.

I don't know what type of neighbors you have, but they sound rather heartless. No animal deserves that kind of treatment, even a dog. I'd hazard a guess from your postings, that you'd have about the same regard for homeless people in your area though, as these individuals did for their pets.

And why? Well those people have their priorities straight. They have their precious kids to worry about, they have a lot of other far more important things to focus on. They would probably say it would be “stupid” to waste their time dropping Fido off at a shelter, why waste the gas? Its just a dog so just leave it. Who cares if it starves for weeks before it is found. Its just a dog.

I think you generalize too much about other people. Some individuals might do as you say, but most people I know would have the animal euthanized or find it another home if they couldn't take it with them. You sing the praises of shelters, but for the most part they're worse than turning the animal lose to fend for itself. I'm always reading something about the abuses that occur in these places.

Like many of the people in New Orleans when Katrina hit. They fled and didn’t give a damn about their dogs. Worse yet weeks later when some went BACK to their ruined homes they would find the dog that had been starved for weeks and was near death.

In an emergency, even the authorities recommend leaving your pets behind with adequate food and water. Shelters won't accept them, you couldn't carry enough food for them, and they'd make travel difficult for you and your family. Animals can fend for themselves, and most people will not risk their lives or that of their children for a pet. Only a disturbed person would do so.

Some simply put the weak and dying animals, still breathing, out on the curb with the rest of the trash. They had bigger things to worry about, they had their kids to think about, and dogs were certainly the LEAST of their concerns.

I think your exaggerating again. That would be totally stupid placing a live dog out at the curb with your garbage..

Tell me again how humans are so special. How they are so divine by nature and as such above every other form of life.

I've already told you, and I don't think it bears repeating again as you obviously aren't listening.


[edit on 26-8-2008 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by LLoyd45 I like to think they're intelligent and loving creatures, but a great deal of the affection we feel for them is simply the result of our projecting human-like qualities upon them.

They perceived them as being less judgmental, and therefore an acceptable source of companionship.

I do not project human qualities on my pets, I also don't project them on other people! My impressions are based on the individual actions of each. You do not know what you are talking about. It strikes me as a bit creepy when animal lovers speak of their companions as their “kids”, or refer to themselves as the Mom or Dad to their animals. They are not kids, they are adults, they are fully functioning members of another species. They may see us as caretakers, servants, pack leaders, or great companions, but the only ones that would view a human as a “parental” figure would be those that were raised and bottle fed by surrogate human parents from birth.

Over the years I have had many animals, virtually ALL rescues. Some I was very close to, some obviously did not even like me that much. I have had a cat for 5 years, a kitten found starving in a park, and it was QUITE obvious that the cat didn’t have any use for me. The cat loved the dogs, greeted them and showered affection on them, but despite the fact I fed him it took him 3 years before he could be bothered to greet me with the same happy meows that he lavished on the canines. He has been with me for five years now, I would not dump him for any reason, he has actually become much nicer to me over the years.

I have also had dogs that were obviously far more attached to another dog rather than to me, I have no doubt given the choice they would have chosen their canine buddy over me in a heartbeat. So you don’t have any clue about the social or emotional dynamics that go on between humans and companion animals, and when you say people like animals because it is “unconditional” love you prove you know nothing.

Oh and btw...small children probably show a greater amount of "unconditional love". Small children are even more blindly devoted than many animals, they will seek to stay with their parents no matter what is done to them. It is instinct, plain and simple. So when you bathe yourself in your offsprings love and devotion realize that is far more basic and instinctual and biological than a devotion between humans and their pets.

Originally posted by LLoyd45the majority of these individuals had poor social skills, and were incapable of forming normal, healthy relationships with other people. They compensated for their deficiencies by investing all their time and energy bonding with animals. They perceived them as being less judgmental, and therefore an acceptable source of companionship.

Okay so animal lovers not only have a wide range of mental problems, but now they also have poor social skills? Wow. I happen to make my living in large part via social skills, I am in sales. Sheesh thanks for pointing out my lack of social skills Dr. Lloyd, I will look into it.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Eventually the lines become blurred as to what constitutes an appropriate or inappropriate relationship with an animal, and they start relating to them in very inappropriate ways emotionally, physically, etc.

Inappropriate PHYSICAL relations? What are you implying???? If you are implying what I think that went WAY WAY TOO FAR! Or perhaps all close attachments can lead to “inappropriate physical relationships” is that what you are saying? Because if that is what you are saying that extremely ugly implication can be turned right around on you.



[edit on 26-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by chise61

Originally posted by LLoyd45
or perpetrate horrible atrocities against their fellow man.

LOL you said that as if it were an admirable trait


I think that is one of the things that makes the animals above us, the fact that they DON"T perpetrate horrible atrocities against each other.

Actually that is patently not true. Real animals (pets are not real animals) will often do things that we, as humans, would consider pretty horrible.

• Young eaglets will bite to death their siblings in times of less than adequate food.
  
• Most birds will kick defective offspring out of the nest to die of exposure.
  
• Fish will kill each other for territorial reasons and will often kill weaker fish for little or no reason.
  
• Male lions will sometimes kill all the cubs of a pride he has taken over.
  
• Ect..

None of these are the exception; rather, they are the rule. This is how animals live and die. From what I have seen of the natural world, it is immensely more violent than the human world.

Now ask yourself:

• How often does a human get remarried after a divorce and have their children killed by their new lover?
  
• How many times have the bullies at school killed a weaker kid?
  
• How many parents just let their sick/deformed/retarded children die?
  
• Even in countries where starvation is a problem, when was the last time a sibling killed another over food?

All of these actions, on the rare occasion that they occur, are rightly seen as wrong and evil by humans and we band together to necessarily punish the perpetrators. Animals on the other hand are never punished for being too violent. Instead, they are rewarded as survivors and pack leaders who can reproduce to create more violent offspring.

The truth is that nature is not the touchy-feelly happy world that overzealous animals lovers pretend it to be. Animals do tons of cruelty, some necessary and some not, in the name of survival. So do humans. Almost every horrible act in human history was sold by the planners to the perpetrators as a matter of survival (usually their children's survival).

Humans and animals are wired remarkable similarly but humans can and do temper the instinct to kill with reason. Humans have the power to effect destruction on a level animals can not even come close to comprehending and, as a species, the numbers to do horrible things on such a scale that it would make WW2 look like a bad soccer riot. Yet we don't. Our human culture has given us a remarkable amount of constraint compared to even our closest relatives.

Jon