Jackinthebox;

Maybe that is the distinction. I don't know. Where I live we have few long stretches of road that are not completely empty.

I do know that trying to work on a patient in the back of an ambulance doing 70mph is not as easy as it sounds. I made a few trips to Nashville on I-24 in the middle of the night. The slightest rise or small bump can knock you off balance sometimes. An ambulance is not the most stable platform being somwhat top heavy.

I have also been in the back when one driver went backwards on an onramp so yes, there are idiots out there.

Originally posted by LLoyd45I knew an old woman once who used to cook Supper for her dog and dressed him in clothes like a person. She treated everyone like crap, and was despised by all who knew her. She died one night, and wasn't found for a week since she had no friends to speak of. The postman happened to noticed the stench coming from her house. In the interim, Her dog had made a meal out of her face and one of her legs ..

LOL. Whats your point? Do I treat people like crap? Is that what you are saying? Do I mock the pain and suffering of others and feel righteous about it? Like a story about a couple that was grieving because they lost something they loved but they had NO RIGHT to love it because it does not fit in with YOUR personal belief system?

Does it make you feel VALID to mock the suffering and death and mourning of others since what they lost is not human? That adds to your self worth? That validates how special you are because you are from a superior species and as such you have a soul?

I suspect it does do a lot for you. The superiority. That is very sad. And the fact that I think it's laughable and pathetic, and it irritates you so much, is very amusing.

I will concede the point that if there was my dog standing next to a random child in the street and both were about to be killed, yes I would most likely save that child first...because it would be the right thing to do. Children, like dogs, are innocent and do not deserve to die. It wouldnt lessen the sting and the hurt of having lost my dog, but morally I would have to place the childs life first.

This doesnt mean that by doing so it de-values the life of the pet in any way. I will be blunt here and be the first to say that aside from my family and my friends, I would likely place the life of my dogs above that of most other adult humans. Sorry if you folks cant swallow that but it is what it is. Most people have it coming and in my opinion human life isnt as valuable to me as some would like to believe.

Are animals sentient and aware? Absolutely. Ever see the video of the herd of water buffalo who band together in order to save a baby calf who has been attacked by lions? That is not instinct, it is awareness. How about the dog who comforts elderly patients in a nursing home and actually goes and stays with the old person in their final hours, the dog knowing that the person is about to die even before they know.

Ever looked into a dogs eyes? There is awareness, they feel love, they feel pain, they even have a unique sense of humor. If you think every dog or every animal is the same, just some random empty shell devoid of feeling or understanding...then you are WRONG. A German Shepherd has the equated I.Q. to that of a school aged child. These creatures have souls, they are full of life and love and loyalty.

Human life is important, and when it comes down to a childs life versus a dogs then yes the child should live. But do not even try to claim that an animals life is worthless and that a dog owner can simply go "buy another one" as the a**hole cop said, because it doesnt work that way. A life is a life, it is unique and it deserves love and respect.

Just because you may not be in tuned enough to recognize it doesnt make it not so.

I live in Texas. As a teenager I went through a similar deal although my dog was not dying and the cop was alot more understanding. So mabye its not as similar. I guess I just want to point out that while im not crazy about cops there still are some decent cops out there.

Heres what happened. I was 14 and me and my dad had just gotten home from watching our highschool's football game. We lived out in the country and our front yard had one of those shock collar systems so my dog couldnt leave. But dogs could come in. We let him out and some stray wondered in and attacked him. My dog had an eyeball hanging out of the socket. We grabbed him up threw him in the car and I called the emergency vet on my dads cell to let them know we were coming. Heading south on I-75 my dad was going about 90. A cop pulled us over. Now usually the cops in the area we were pulled over are known for being strict as could be. But this guy walked up asked what the hurry was. I pointed to my dogs eye. He took one look and said, OH, ok. Be on your way and just slow down. So we got a warning, and honestly as soon as the cop was out of our sight we started speeding again.

Well, I guess the point of all this was just to say, that their still are some decent cops out there. I just think its too bad that the couple didnt ran into a police officer like the one we did. That didnt happen though. that 17 minutes very well could have made a HUGE difference in whether or not the dog lived.

While I dont drive up and down I-35 I do go on I-75 everyday. Most people I see are going over the speed limit. I Usually drive about 80 on I-75. People seem to drive mostly between 75-85. Its mostly a 70 , mph speed limit by the way.

While im no civil engineer/road expert I assume that driving 60-75 mph when everyone else around you is drivng 75-85 mph can be dangerous to yourself and everyone else.

anyway, this post was really me venting my frustration with situations like this. That dog could still be alive today. But its not.

17 minutes to write a ticket, 17 minutes to kill a dog.

[edit on 24-8-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

Blackops;

I agree with pretty much what you just wrote. I think alot of people are just a waste of skin. Given the choice of sacrificing myself for 100 people would not even hesitate. Given the choice of sacrificing my life for one person I would have to ask why. Given the choice of sacrificing myself for a child is not something to question.

I am a dog lover myself. When I had to put down my dog a few years ago I was actually surprised it hit me so hard.

Unfortunately some people cannot see that there is a difference.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
17 minutes to write a ticket, 17 minutes to kill a dog.

Maybe you missed the debate, killing the dog in fact somehow VALIDATED the importance of human life and is an example of how humans are a superior species. Yes it did. It says a lot about validating our species, but for some reason I am just too sub-human to get the point.

A while back I was making the 2 am dash to the emergency clinic, it did not end well. While sitting at a red light in an empty intersection I realized how "in the box" my thinking was, and I gunned it. Only now do I realize I could have killed 10 innocent children in an invisible car. I shudder at the thought.

People need to remember there forcing there own views of morality into the argument because society/religion tells them a human life is more important.

I would assume that if this were somewhere in India where the cow is sacred and the argument was about saving a Child or a Cow a lot of people would save the cow saying that is the morally correct/religious choice to make. Yet we would view that as barbaric.

In the end I ask why is 1 human life worth more than that of 1 animal life? Can you tell me that without using religion and/or the morality put upon us by society?

Shinji;

Well I am an athiest so religion plays no part in my arguements. I do not believe people have souls so that means animals don't have souls. As far as people in India starving to death because they think a cow is godly, I just do not know what to say.

I cannot explain it, but to myself; people are more important than animals. I know that is a simplistic answer but it is the only one I have.

Sonya, that's why they're called accidents.. No one intends for them to happen. Most people would never consciously decide to kill an innocent person or persons with their vehicle, but as they say, Sh-t Happens! All it takes is one second to irrevokeably change the course of someone's life. You may kill the father of a family of five, or a single mother of two without meaning to do so.

For people, these incidents tend to have a rippling effect.. Now you have a family with no way of supporting themselves, or two kids that are now orphans. Their lives have been irreparably changed by your actions.

It may be sad when your dog passes on, but it isn't a life shattering event. You'll grieve, then you'll get over it, and eventually find yourself another special friend.

Originally posted by capgrup
Shinji;I cannot explain it, but to myself; people are more important than animals. I know that is a simplistic answer but it is the only one I have.

Biology. Survival of the species. Pretty basic.

Originally posted by Shinji
In the end I ask why is 1 human life worth more than that of 1 animal life? Can you tell me that without using religion and/or the morality put upon us by society?

Because I'm human, and I place my kind above all others. I have no verifiable evidence that suggests an animal is able to think, reason, or care for anyone else aside from itself. People are able to demonstrate these qualities to me, and if for no other reason, that elevates their significance to me.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
It may be sad when your dog passes on, but it isn't a life shattering event. You'll grieve, then you'll get over it, and eventually find yourself another special friend.

Based on that criteria, nothing is life shattering. Though thank you for softening your tone, I do realize I was getting rather harsh in response. The truth is, you do not know my reality, you do not understand, and if you are lucky you never will as that will make your life much happier.

There are some losses one NEVER truly gets over. There are some losses that cut to the the bone, that leave you thinking you are “here spending days but its okay because eventually this is over”. When you yourself are told you are done for, when the oncologist delivers the bad news (turns out they were useless but that is despite the point), you think of them and you dream of them and you have something to truly look forward to after the mess is over. It’s a mix of fear and relief and the light at the end of the tunnel.

That is not faith. That is not religion. That is not morality.

That is reality.

(Sorry to get so deep all, but this touches on a core issue.)


[edit on 24-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
17 minutes to write a ticket, 17 minutes to kill a dog.

Maybe you missed the debate, killing the dog in fact somehow VALIDATED the importance of human life and is an example of how humans are a superior species. Yes it did. It says a lot about validating our species, but for some reason I am just too sub-human to get the point.

A while back I was making the 2 am dash to the emergency clinic, it did not end well. While sitting at a red light in an empty intersection I realized how "in the box" my thinking was, and I gunned it. Only now do I realize I could have killed 10 innocent children in an invisible car. I shudder at the thought.

No I didnt miss the debate. I was (like I said in my post) venting my frustration. I wasnt intending to join in the debate one way or the other. I just think its a shame that any of this happened in the first place.

I also want to point out that I NEVER speed in the city or anywhere that their are stop lights around. There is just way top much potential for something to happen. Just about 1 month ago their was a guy who caused a wreck right at the intersection by my house. He was doing 98 in a 40. Ran a red light and hit a family of five who just left church. the family died. three girls under the age of 12 and the parents. two decapitated.... not pretty.

SO yeah I agree its not good to speed through resedential areas. However a highway is not a resedential area. The cop I delt with gave us a warning. The whole thing took about 1 minute. The few cops I know I imagine ( although I cant say for sure) would do the same.

with my first post I was just trying to say that I wish it never happened in the first place. I wish the dog never choked I wish they had not sped and I wish the cop had not held them up as long as he did. Thats all I meant to say.

Once again, I had no intention of joining the debate.I just wanted to vent. thats it. I did, and now im done

Peace

Originally posted by gimme_some_truthOnce again, I had no intention of joining the debate.I just wanted to vent. thats it. I did, and now im done. Peace.

Sorry I was using your post as a launching pad for another rant. I did not mean to criticize you in any way. In fact the whole "cell phone reference" dated things and made me realize you are a lot younger than I thought; great intellect you have.

Sorry again, I know better than to be sarcastic with young pups, this discussion just got me fired up. Your thoughts on this matter are very accurate and insightful.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Because I'm human, and I place my kind above all others. I have no verifiable evidence that suggests an animal is able to think, reason, or care for anyone else aside from itself. People are able to demonstrate these qualities to me, and if for no other reason, that elevates their significance to me.

So what it boils down to is your instinct tells you to put the survival of your own species over that of another, combined with your own perception of another species which (in your opinion) shows no sign of sentience. Sentience being something which you place a great value on. So due to these factors you chose the human over the dog.

For others there instincts tell them to place a greater value on the survival of there own clan/pack/family, combined with there own perception of another species which (in their opinion) shows signs of sentience. Again sentience being something which people place great value on. This leads them to choose the dog over the human.

So what it boils down to is which instinct has a greater hold of you combined with your own perceptions of reality.


[edit on 24/8/2008 by Shinji]

If you value the life of a human over the life of a dog, you are correct. If you value the life of a dog over the life of a human, you are correct. But calling someone a sick, delusional, insane, worthless human being, stating you feel sorry for them, or wondering what the hell is wrong with people because they believe one thing over the other in this case, I think is not only useless and time-wasting but also futile.

Now I'm not stating where my loyalties lie because it immediately clouds over the point I'm trying to make with this post.

On the first page of this thread I replied to burdman that his scientific knowledge of unsafe highway speeds does not mean much, and I meant this specifically in the face of what a human being values and the way a human being reasons with things. I fully agree with burdman on this point. 95 MPH on a highway is unsafe as the chances of something being killed or injured increase exponentially. You may disagree as to either 95 MPH being a safe speed, or as to my reasons why I believe it is unsafe.

What sickened me was burdman's insensitivity towards the driver's situation. Insensitivity not in that there is a disagreement with the driver's actions, but with words like: "yet some jagoff wants to do 95 on a freeway swerving and emotionally distraught all because an 8 lb dog is choking on a hummingbird bone, and him risking human lives is hunky dorey because "Dogs are like people's family, their children." Bullcrap!", which show that the poster not only disagrees with the driver's actions, but he's worth calling names because of what he values.

Although I was replying to burdman and stating "this is an argument you cannot win", I'd like to clarify. This is an argument that NO ONE can win. Personal insults are being slung for just this reason. Both sides carry hefty weight. You can feel sorry for or be sickened by those who are on the other side of the coin on this issue, but it won't mean squat, so why not avoid the insults?

No line can be drawn in the endless expanse of Grey that this issue is, and both sides know it. I respect both because I can logically see it both ways.

I'm not belittling either side of the coin, I'm just presenting a perspective I haven't seen enough of here. If we're supposed to be denying ignorance together, on some issues we must agree to disagree.

Sonya,

Sorry for riding down so hard on you, but the comment about the child really irked me. I have a little girl, and the thought of someone letting her die to save a dog, got my blood pressure up. You know I'm not very fond of dogs anyhow from the drug-sniffing dog thread a while back, so maybe my bias is showing a bit.

I don't mean to downplay their loss, but neither do I approve of their reckless actions. Not only did they place their own lives in jeopardy, but the lives of everyone else that might have been on that road.

I hope you're doing alright, and that the oncologists are clueless as they typically are. My M-I-L lived 8 productive years after they pronounced her untreatable.

[edit on 24-8-2008 by LLoyd45]

Shinji very well stated. I get all emotional on this topic, yet you manage to use logic and explain things much better.

danj3ris your comments are very balanced and well thought out as well. Thank you for the insight.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Sorry for riding down so hard on you, but the comment about the child really irked me. I have a little girl, and the thought of someone letting her die to save a dog, got my blood pressure up.

Yeah my comment irked you? Well no worries, I have no malicious intent towards small children. You love her, you are very protective towards her, she is all that and hopefully you would risk your life, or even give your life, for her. Yeah I get it. Do you get it? She is the most important thing in your reality, and nothing else will take precedence. I understand. Completely. See…understanding…I will not denigrate how you feel, I will not tell you that you are twisted for feeling protective towards that which you love. Sheesh I would not even judge you for saving your daughter over my dog if a truck was barrelling down the road. I get it. Do you? It is all instinct and hormones. Different forms, same result.


[edit on 24-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
I hope you're doing alright, and that the oncologists are clueless as they typically are. My M-I-L lived 8 productive years after they pronounced her untreatable.

Yeah no worries. It looked low risk after the last dire diagnosis, and I will forgoe further testing (haha...perception is reality).

And to be honest one time I did feel guilty about a child on the side of the road. See...capable of guilt, possible sign of sentience. Four year old kid on a busy two lane highway (guessing age, very young human, not exactly sure), one lane stopped other lane hauling fast. Kid contemplating crossing and it would have been sudden death.

It bothered me, because I know had it been a puppy/dog I would have stopped and even held up traffic because I would have not trusted ANYONE else to protect them. But see it was a human child, and I kept thinking "surely others will intervene". I was worried about chalk marks when I drove home that day. There were mothers in the cars behind me, with their human offspring, and they saw it and they did nothing. Oh but they looked concerned, big points there. It was twisted. If it happens again I would probably stop.


[edit on 24-8-2008 by Sonya610]