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Originally posted by LLoyd45
I feel sorry for you Sonya if you'd truly place your dog's life over that of a small child.. A dog is just that, a dog. It's not a thinking, feeling person, nor is it even self-aware.
Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
Originally posted by burdman30ott6
I had no idea ATS was so full of transportation design engineers! Wow guys, we should all exchange numbers or something so we can talk shop together. ... I design & analyze highways for a living... I am a licensed professional civil engineer and I am good at what I do. I can say with no hesitation that there is NO highway in the united states that was designed using AASHTO guidelines for 95 MPH.
So you are responsible for the almost immediate breakdown in the highway infrastructure and the potholes that plague our highway system? Maybe you should go back to school and learn to design better roads.
Originally posted by burdman30ott6 flattened with the imprint of a size 16 Harley Davidson lug boot implanted across it's back.
So you are claiming for such a small fella to have extra-grande Clown Feet shoes that represent one of the worst bikes for maintenance ever made. That causes intentional short term deafness in everyone around it and gets lousy gas mileage for a bike and is one bike I constantly enjoy sabotaging.. Thanks for letting us know that the next time we see a Harley ridden by a little fella with big giant clown shoes on we'll know who you are.
Originally posted by LLoyd45
This guy risks his life everyday for a totally inadequate salary, and then must endure this type of lunacy as well..
Originally posted by LLoyd45 A dog is just that, a dog. It's not a thinking, feeling person, nor is it even self-aware.
You certainly have a high opinion of "people" in general don't you? Because they look like you, you feel the need to project all sorts of deep, emotional, self-aware traits in them.
I would say you are a more than a bit confused about the reality of the world. There are many horrible people in the world, they would kill you for $2, sell their children for $20, or watch their own kids starve while they fill their own bellies first.
Yet in your mind they are all "thinking, feeling, self-aware precious enlightened souls" unlike any other creature on the planet. That truly must be "faith" based because there is far too much evidence in the real world for for a rational person to come to that conclusion.
I think you are a bit out of touch with reality, and I feel sorry for you. : (
Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
Totally inadequate? I live in a neighborhood filled with cops, their average salaries are $125,000 ... is that inadequate? Cops start at $55,000 a year plus overtime, are you that horribly uneducated and out of touch?
Most animals are not self-aware, especially dogs. They're driven by instincts, not reason. Please provide a link to these studies you claim say most animals are self-aware. I've never seen any of them.
Studies have proven that most animals are self-aware, feeling and think, most likely more than you do. If they could not perform those functions then they would be unable to nuture their young, develope relationships, figure out how to open doggy doors or respond to a trainer, nor would they actually consider their environment when moving around because they would not think about their own survival.
Why are you bringing my son into this? Did I say anything about him? The dog is classified a police officer to make harming him have real consequences, not because he's self-aware or receives a paycheck for his services..
You son, should now go out there and get those laws recinded that class a police dog as an officer because "A dog is just that, a dog" and therefore not worthy of the SALARY that the cities pay the Officer Handler for their services.
Actually I don't have that high of an opinion of most people, yet I'd save a person's life over that of an animal any day of the week simply because it's the right thing to do.
Originally posted by Sonya610
You certainly have a high opinion of "people" in general don't you? Because they look like you, you feel the need to project all sorts of deep, emotional, self-aware traits in them.
I would say you are a more than a bit confused about the reality of the world. There are many horrible people in the world, they would kill you for $2, sell their children for $20, or watch their own kids starve while they fill their own bellies first.
Yet in your mind they are all "thinking, feeling, self-aware precious enlightened souls" unlike any other creature on the planet. That truly must be "faith" based because there is far too much evidence in the real world for for a rational person to come to that conclusion.
I have pets too, and I know they feel pain, experience fear and possibly even experience anger, but that's not self-awareness. Those are biological and instinctual behaviors that are hardwired into their make up. They don't dream, they have no concept of self aside from some sensory input possibly like smell, and they do not have any conception of right or wrong like people do.
Originally posted by Shinji
From the UK so an automatic animal lover here. People saying animals are not self-aware or sentient have never really had a close relationship with an animal. If you had done you would know each and everyone is unique.
They feel love, pain, fear and many other emotions. There are also many stories out there that show animals putting there own lives on the live to save an owners, I even have a similar story.
Cats like most animals are territorial and will defend their home. The one cat was obviously much more aggressive than the other, and reacted to the intrusion. I doubt he consciously thought "Hey! got to to save my master!"
A neighbour’s cat came into our garden, our cats were in there but paid no attention to it. My little sister went over to see it and it attacked her, one of out cats immediately jumped up and shot right after the neighbour’s cat and chased it out the garden (The other one sat there like an idiot). Our cat knew who its family was and was willing to protect them.
so, to answer Sonya's hypothetical scenario.. Would you save the child or your cat? would you value your cat's life above that of another human being?
When it comes down to it humans are animals too, tribal/pack animals and they will put members of there own pack above those of another and for many pets are part of there pack. So yes they will be putting the lives of those animals above those of other humans. Is that selfish/stupid/illogical? Yes but so is the whole of the human race, people are just following there own instincts (Being animals them selves) when trying to save a member of there family.
Originally posted by capgrup
I thought that I was one of the most cold hearted people around, but to say that you would save the life of a dog over that of a child actually sends a chill up my spine. Hell, I don't even like kids.
Originally posted by LLoyd45Would you save the child or your cat? would you value your cat's life above that of another human being?
Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by capgrup
If you were in the back of an ambulance I guarantee that it would not be going 95mph, even with the lights and sirens blaring and you were dying.
You can not possibly guarantee that, because it happens all the time. Ambulances, police cars, fire trucks, they all speed. Police cars like to do it with their lights out even, and blow through red-lights blacked out at high speed. I know two ambulance drivers personally, and they certainly do speed, especially if they are running code.
Originally posted by capgrup
Sonya;
I have been the victim of crime and so have millions of other people. Your arguement has absolutely nothing to do with saving an innocent child and the fact that you either cannot or will not make that distinction really scares the hell out of me. If that is what our country is coming to then we are lost.
Originally posted by Shinji
The reason people are placing less value on the life of many animals is one simple reason, they can not speak. If animals could communicate with us I bet people would have very different views on the subject.
No, you're not the problem with America, you're just a symptom. A fanatical devotion to an animal, that places it's life above that of another human being is an illness. Someone must have done a real number on you psychologically, for you to hate people so much.
Originally posted by Sonya610
Yeah I work for a living, pay my taxes, have never been arrested, and never seek to harm anyone (human or animal). Plus I openly love and care for my animals, and I value their lives above the lives of strangers.
I am the problem with America. I am what you fear most. Be afraid!
Maybe I should have stated that where I live no ambulance would be doing 85-95 mph. In Tn. emergency vehicles are only supposed to do no more than 10-15 miles over the general speed of traffic. Sure there are some that do not abide by this and go faster, but not at the speed you are suggesting.
The child will develop beyond the the three year old level, no known animal aside from man, ever will. The child may grow up to do great things, a dog or a cat will never aspire to be anything more than a pampered house pet.
Originally posted by Shinji
I would argue that many animals do have sentience (Gorilas, Dolphins, Whales, Pigs, Cats, Dogs maybe even Squid/Octopus). Dogs and Cats obviously not to the same level as human beings but defiantly above that of say a new born child.
I would say for Dogs and Cats there around the level of a 3 year old child. So does that mean we should not bother rescuing any child under the age of three? Because they are not properly sentient yet?
Maybe they have their own version of dreaming, but it doesn't make them the equivalent of a person.
I would also defiantly say Dogs do dream because I have seen by Dogs dreaming whilst there are asleep, doing things like trying to run or barking.
It might very well change how they were perceived, but unfortunately they lack the ability to do so at present.
The reason people are placing less value on the life of many animals is one simple reason, they can not speak. If animals could communicate with us I bet people would have very different views on the subject.
Maybe he was acting out of loyalty, I don't know, but he could just as well have been reacting on instinct. Maybe he saw your sister as part of his territory as well.
As for the story about my cat and little sister, well I do believe he was trying to protect a member of the family. As I said he did not react to the other cat until it attacked her. There are many other stories out there however including one where a horse got in-between its injured owner and a rattlesnake instead of running in fear from the snake.
As to the question, I do not know, I would like to say I would choose the child, however I have never been in that situation and maybe with a split second choice like that I would end up choosing my pet over the child, so I really do not know. In the end a decision like that comes down to instinct and which ones kick in first. Maybe I get locked into indecision and by the time I choose it is too late and they both die.
God represents many things to many people, and he still loves us whether we return his affection or not. Wait till you're really in a bad situation, and see who you start talking to.. Their are no atheists in foxholes.
Oh and please do not bring “God” into this argument, there are far too many belief systems in place on earth and represented on these boards to include “him/her/it” in the argument. Mankind is modelled after God and all the other animals were placed here for us? I would never be so arrogant as to believe such a thing, humans are just another animal and nothing more.