Originally posted by LLoyd45
I feel sorry for you Sonya if you'd truly place your dog's life over that of a small child.. A dog is just that, a dog. It's not a thinking, feeling person, nor is it even self-aware.

You certainly have a high opinion of "people" in general don't you? Because they look like you, you feel the need to project all sorts of deep, emotional, self-aware traits in them.

I would say you are a more than a bit confused about the reality of the world. There are many horrible people in the world, they would kill you for $2, sell their children for $20, or watch their own kids starve while they fill their own bellies first.

Yet in your mind they are all "thinking, feeling, self-aware precious enlightened souls" unlike any other creature on the planet. That truly must be "faith" based because there is far too much evidence in the real world for for a rational person to come to that conclusion.

I think you are a bit out of touch with reality, and I feel sorry for you. : (

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
I had no idea ATS was so full of transportation design engineers! Wow guys, we should all exchange numbers or something so we can talk shop together. ... I design & analyze highways for a living... I am a licensed professional civil engineer and I am good at what I do. I can say with no hesitation that there is NO highway in the united states that was designed using AASHTO guidelines for 95 MPH.

So you are responsible for the almost immediate breakdown in the highway infrastructure and the potholes that plague our highway system? Maybe you should go back to school and learn to design better roads.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6 flattened with the imprint of a size 16 Harley Davidson lug boot implanted across it's back.

So you are claiming for such a small fella to have extra-grande Clown Feet shoes that represent one of the worst bikes for maintenance ever made. That causes intentional short term deafness in everyone around it and gets lousy gas mileage for a bike and is one bike I constantly enjoy sabotaging.. Thanks for letting us know that the next time we see a Harley ridden by a little fella with big giant clown shoes on we'll know who you are.

No. The state you live in is responsible for the state of your highways. Perhaps driving your half ton SUVs to get to wherever you want to go may exasperate the problems that plague your highways? Burdman simply pointed out that there is no highway in the U.S. that was designed to allow 95 MPH. Perhaps you should go back to school, and learn to read?

Indeed, you are a king amongst men; I bet you drive around in a smart car and handed out copies of Al Gore's Inconvenient truths to your neighbours.

Unreal. Attacking Burd because he drives a Harley, and freely admitting that you sabotage Harleys because of lowsy gas mileage? Do you have a Bizzaro complex?

Pathetic.

[edit on 24/8/08 by MacDonagh]

[edit on 24/8/08 by MacDonagh]

[edit on 24/8/08 by MacDonagh]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
This guy risks his life everyday for a totally inadequate salary, and then must endure this type of lunacy as well..

Totally inadequate? I live in a neighborhood filled with cops, their average salaries are $125,000 ... is that inadequate? Cops start at $55,000 a year plus overtime, are you that horribly uneducated and out of touch?

Originally posted by LLoyd45 A dog is just that, a dog. It's not a thinking, feeling person, nor is it even self-aware.

Oh! You just proved my question!

Studies have proven that most animals are self-aware, feeling and think, most likely more than you do. If they could not perform those functions then they would be unable to nuture their young, develope relationships, figure out how to open doggy doors or respond to a trainer, nor would they actually consider their environment when moving around because they would not think about their own survival.

You son, should now go out there and get those laws recinded that class a police dog as an officer because "A dog is just that, a dog" and therefore not worthy of the SALARY that the cities pay the Officer Handler for their services.

You certainly have a high opinion of "people" in general don't you? Because they look like you, you feel the need to project all sorts of deep, emotional, self-aware traits in them.

It's because they do have those deep emotional self aware traits in them. Do they not feel love, hate, pain, anger?

I would say you are a more than a bit confused about the reality of the world. There are many horrible people in the world, they would kill you for $2, sell their children for $20, or watch their own kids starve while they fill their own bellies first.

Or rescue their dogs before they would rescue a child and then deny that they saw the child. Am I being pedantic? People have the ability to do good and evil, but they do have differing viewpoints on what is good and evil. Deal with it.

Yet in your mind they are all "thinking, feeling, self-aware precious enlightened souls" unlike any other creature on the planet. That truly must be "faith" based because there is far too much evidence in the real world for for a rational person to come to that conclusion.

Faith in humanity isn't a fault, but it leaves you open to bitterness. And it's a well known "fact" that dogs don't go to heaven. Neither do self aware robots.

I think you are a bit out of touch with reality, and I feel sorry for you. : (

Don't say that! Pity for people like him is mildly pointless. Like tender hands on a Cyclops.

[edit on 24/8/08 by MacDonagh]

Originally posted by Sonya610
You certainly have a high opinion of "people" in general don't you? Because they look like you, you feel the need to project all sorts of deep, emotional, self-aware traits in them.

I would say you are a more than a bit confused about the reality of the world. There are many horrible people in the world, they would kill you for $2, sell their children for $20, or watch their own kids starve while they fill their own bellies first.

Actually I don't have that high of an opinion of most people, yet I'd save a person's life over that of an animal any day of the week simply because it's the right thing to do.

Animals are not created in God's image, nor are they sentient. They have no conception of right or wrong, and would eat you if they were hungry. You read about dog attacks on small children all the time. Even dog breeders will warn you of how dangerous their animals are, and that you should never leave your small child unattended with one.

Yet in your mind they are all "thinking, feeling, self-aware precious enlightened souls" unlike any other creature on the planet. That truly must be "faith" based because there is far too much evidence in the real world for for a rational person to come to that conclusion.

People think, feel, dream, love, hate, etc.. Dogs do tricks for for kibbles and bits, That's the extent of their consciousness..

From the UK so an automatic animal lover here. People saying animals are not self-aware or sentient have never really had a close relationship with an animal. If you had done you would know each and everyone is unique.

They feel love, pain, fear and many other emotions. There are also many stories out there that show animals putting there own lives on the live to save an owners, I even have a similar story.

A neighbour’s cat came into our garden, our cats were in there but paid no attention to it. My little sister went over to see it and it attacked her, one of out cats immediately jumped up and shot right after the neighbour’s cat and chased it out the garden (The other one sat there like an idiot). Our cat knew who its family was and was willing to protect them.

When it comes down to it humans are animals too, tribal/pack animals and they will put members of there own pack above those of another and for many pets are part of there pack. So yes they will be putting the lives of those animals above those of other humans. Is that selfish/stupid/illogical? Yes but so is the whole of the human race, people are just following there own instincts (Being animals them selves) when trying to save a member of there family.

Sonya;

I thought that I was one of the most cold hearted people around, but to say that you would save the life of a dog over that of a child actually sends a chill up my spine. Hell, I don't even like kids.

I spent years in the Rescue Squad here and eventually got burned out. The day I told a drunk that if he caused a wreck that injured him and anyone else I would let him die was the day I quit. I guess I was too narrow in my standards of worthy citizens. Thank You for the education.

Lesson learned.

Originally posted by Shinji
From the UK so an automatic animal lover here. People saying animals are not self-aware or sentient have never really had a close relationship with an animal. If you had done you would know each and everyone is unique.

They feel love, pain, fear and many other emotions. There are also many stories out there that show animals putting there own lives on the live to save an owners, I even have a similar story.

I have pets too, and I know they feel pain, experience fear and possibly even experience anger, but that's not self-awareness. Those are biological and instinctual behaviors that are hardwired into their make up. They don't dream, they have no concept of self aside from some sensory input possibly like smell, and they do not have any conception of right or wrong like people do.

A neighbour’s cat came into our garden, our cats were in there but paid no attention to it. My little sister went over to see it and it attacked her, one of out cats immediately jumped up and shot right after the neighbour’s cat and chased it out the garden (The other one sat there like an idiot). Our cat knew who its family was and was willing to protect them.

Cats like most animals are territorial and will defend their home. The one cat was obviously much more aggressive than the other, and reacted to the intrusion. I doubt he consciously thought "Hey! got to to save my master!"

When it comes down to it humans are animals too, tribal/pack animals and they will put members of there own pack above those of another and for many pets are part of there pack. So yes they will be putting the lives of those animals above those of other humans. Is that selfish/stupid/illogical? Yes but so is the whole of the human race, people are just following there own instincts (Being animals them selves) when trying to save a member of there family.

so, to answer Sonya's hypothetical scenario.. Would you save the child or your cat? would you value your cat's life above that of another human being?

Originally posted by capgrup
I thought that I was one of the most cold hearted people around, but to say that you would save the life of a dog over that of a child actually sends a chill up my spine. Hell, I don't even like kids.

If this is truly enlightening for you, realizing that humans can be quite cold hearted, well then you should be thanking me. Such an epiphany is not always realized in such an easy and harmless way. Be glad you are discovering this fact while you sit their in your safe home and read about it in text on a computer screen.

If it makes you feel any better, realize that those who would kill you for whats in your wallet at this moment would probably also kill a dog if it had a dollar tucked away in its collar. For them it is not a matter of choosing human over animal, you and the dog are the same.

Originally posted by LLoyd45Would you save the child or your cat? would you value your cat's life above that of another human being?

I would save MY OWN first, without hesitation. I would save my pack (human or animal) before I would save a stranger. I have a responsibility and an emotional attachment to them first and foremost, for me it would not even be a matter to ponder. I know some of my animal family would do the same, I know that it is extremely unlikely (okay probably impossible) for one of my cats to put their life on the line for mine, and does it matter? Heck no. It is about my devotion to them, first and foremost.


[edit on 24-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Sonya;

I have been the victim of crime and so have millions of other people. Your arguement has absolutely nothing to do with saving an innocent child and the fact that you either cannot or will not make that distinction really scares the hell out of me. If that is what our country is coming to then we are lost.

I would argue that many animals do have sentience (Gorilas, Dolphins, Whales, Pigs, Cats, Dogs maybe even Squid/Octopus). Dogs and Cats obviously not to the same level as human beings but defiantly above that of say a new born child.

I would say for Dogs and Cats there around the level of a 3 year old child. So does that mean we should not bother rescuing any child under the age of three? Because they are not properly sentient yet?

I would also defiantly say Dogs do dream because I have seen by Dogs dreaming whilst there are asleep, doing things like trying to run or barking.

The reason people are placing less value on the life of many animals is one simple reason, they can not speak. If animals could communicate with us I bet people would have very different views on the subject.

As for the story about my cat and little sister, well I do believe he was trying to protect a member of the family. As I said he did not react to the other cat until it attacked her. There are many other stories out there however including one where a horse got in-between its injured owner and a rattlesnake instead of running in fear from the snake.

As to the question, I do not know, I would like to say I would choose the child, however I have never been in that situation and maybe with a split second choice like that I would end up choosing my pet over the child, so I really do not know. In the end a decision like that comes down to instinct and which ones kick in first. Maybe I get locked into indecision and by the time I choose it is too late and they both die.

Oh and please do not bring “God” into this argument, there are far too many belief systems in place on earth and represented on these boards to include “him/her/it” in the argument. Mankind is modelled after God and all the other animals were placed here for us? I would never be so arrogant as to believe such a thing, humans are just another animal and nothing more.

Memysabu;

I know that emergency vehicle operators do speed. If you had read my other replies you would have seen that I conceeded that it does happen.

My brother is a paramedic, my ex-sister in law is a paramedic. I was in the rescue squad here and have taken the EVOC course numerous times. The question is not that emergency vehicles speed, but whether 95 miles an hour is a legitimate speed for a non-emergency situation.

Originally posted by capgrup
Sonya;
I have been the victim of crime and so have millions of other people. Your arguement has absolutely nothing to do with saving an innocent child and the fact that you either cannot or will not make that distinction really scares the hell out of me. If that is what our country is coming to then we are lost.

Yeah I work for a living, pay my taxes, have never been arrested, and never seek to harm anyone (human or animal). Plus I openly love and care for my animals, and I value their lives above the lives of strangers.

I am the problem with America. I am what you fear most. Be afraid!

Originally posted by Shinji
The reason people are placing less value on the life of many animals is one simple reason, they can not speak. If animals could communicate with us I bet people would have very different views on the subject.

Nahhh...it's an evolutionary thing. 2,000 years ago a Roman citizen could kill his whole family if he was displeased or disgraced by their behavior, it was his right. 500 years ago the Catholics debated whether women were really fully human and whether they had souls. 200 years ago it was perfectly acceptable to own another human, and control every aspect of their life, or end their life (and it still is acceptable in some places).

Awareness of the sentient nature of others (human or non-human) is gradual and it is relative. Times change, and people change.

Sonya;

I guess I am just a dumba$$!! So you work and pay taxes. Do you want a prize? I am not sure but I guess you realize your arguement is ridiculous and now you are just being sarcastic.

Either that or you just bang away on your keyboard hating humanity so much you never actually talk to people (the internet does not count).

[edit on 24-8-2008 by capgrup]

Originally posted by Sonya610

Yeah I work for a living, pay my taxes, have never been arrested, and never seek to harm anyone (human or animal). Plus I openly love and care for my animals, and I value their lives above the lives of strangers.

I am the problem with America. I am what you fear most. Be afraid!

No, you're not the problem with America, you're just a symptom. A fanatical devotion to an animal, that places it's life above that of another human being is an illness. Someone must have done a real number on you psychologically, for you to hate people so much.

I knew an old woman once who used to cook Supper for her dog and dressed him in clothes like a person. She treated everyone like crap, and was despised by all who knew her. She died one night, and wasn't found for a week since she had no friends to speak of. The postman happened to noticed the stench coming from her house. In the interim, Her dog had made a meal out of her face and one of her legs ..

[edit on 24-8-2008 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by Shinji
I would argue that many animals do have sentience (Gorilas, Dolphins, Whales, Pigs, Cats, Dogs maybe even Squid/Octopus). Dogs and Cats obviously not to the same level as human beings but defiantly above that of say a new born child.

I would say for Dogs and Cats there around the level of a 3 year old child. So does that mean we should not bother rescuing any child under the age of three? Because they are not properly sentient yet?

The child will develop beyond the the three year old level, no known animal aside from man, ever will. The child may grow up to do great things, a dog or a cat will never aspire to be anything more than a pampered house pet.

I would also defiantly say Dogs do dream because I have seen by Dogs dreaming whilst there are asleep, doing things like trying to run or barking.

Maybe they have their own version of dreaming, but it doesn't make them the equivalent of a person.

The reason people are placing less value on the life of many animals is one simple reason, they can not speak. If animals could communicate with us I bet people would have very different views on the subject.

It might very well change how they were perceived, but unfortunately they lack the ability to do so at present.

As for the story about my cat and little sister, well I do believe he was trying to protect a member of the family. As I said he did not react to the other cat until it attacked her. There are many other stories out there however including one where a horse got in-between its injured owner and a rattlesnake instead of running in fear from the snake.

Maybe he was acting out of loyalty, I don't know, but he could just as well have been reacting on instinct. Maybe he saw your sister as part of his territory as well.

As to the question, I do not know, I would like to say I would choose the child, however I have never been in that situation and maybe with a split second choice like that I would end up choosing my pet over the child, so I really do not know. In the end a decision like that comes down to instinct and which ones kick in first. Maybe I get locked into indecision and by the time I choose it is too late and they both die.

You seem like a decent person, so I think you'd do the right thing myself. I Love my cat too, but I'd never let a child die in his place. I'd miss him, but I'd never be able to look myself in the mirror if I saved him rather than the kid.

Oh and please do not bring “God” into this argument, there are far too many belief systems in place on earth and represented on these boards to include “him/her/it” in the argument. Mankind is modelled after God and all the other animals were placed here for us? I would never be so arrogant as to believe such a thing, humans are just another animal and nothing more.

God represents many things to many people, and he still loves us whether we return his affection or not. Wait till you're really in a bad situation, and see who you start talking to.. Their are no atheists in foxholes.

[edit on 24-8-2008 by LLoyd45]