Rebels in Abkhazia Rally to sever Ties with Georgia

Rebels in Abkhazia Rally to sever Ties with Georgia

news.bbc.co.uk

A big pro-independence rally is being held in Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region and a similar rally is expected soon in war-ravaged South Ossetia.

Separatists in both regions are urging Russia and other countries to recognise them as independent from Georgia.

(visit the link for the full news article)

The caption under the photo is significant: "Russian TV showed a huge crowd at the rally in Abkhazia". This will clearly be used as evidence in Russia's campaign to justify occupation of Abkhazia.

The irony is that the inhabitants of Abkhazia, and of South Ossetia for that matter, will find that 'independence' from Georgia on the back of Russian military intervention = incorporation into the Russian Federation.



news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Originally posted by pause4thought
The irony is that the inhabitants of Abkhazia, and of South Ossetia for that matter, will find that 'independence' from Georgia on the back of Russian military intervention = incorporation into the Russian Federation.

Given that the majority of people in Abkhazia (most reports put it around 80%) have chosen to take Russian passports, the de facto currency is the ruble, and their economy is tied closer to Russia than Georgia - I'm not sure that people would find it "ironic" so much as "welcome" to be absorbed into Russia.

Better that than being forced to join - and remain with - Georgia at gunpoint.

In any case - it's their choice. Should be, anyway. Democracy, and all that.

reply to post by vox2442



I don't disagree with what you say about the reality on the ground. But there is a lot of loose talk of 'independence' that does not bear in mind what is really going on.

It is not democracy, however. For that to be true Abkhazia and South Ossetia would be separating following a referendum. As it is they are territorially part of Georgia and are in the process of breaking away through military annexation.

reply to post by pause4thought


I believe they held a referendum some years ago and voted overwhelmingly to be independant from Georgia. It is in fact Georgia that's been holding onto them by military annexation.

edit/ typo

[edit on 8/21/2008 by mythatsabigprobe]

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe


here's a link on the S. Ossetian referenda
en.wikipedia.org...

Abzhazia actually declared independence from Georgia in 1992 - which has led to a few armed conflicts. They've never - as far as I can tell - accepted that they're a part of Georgia, despite everyone telling them they are.

Reply to vox2442


The article you quoted contains this rather revealing section:

The Georgian side considers this move by de facto authorities in Tskhinvali as a provocative and unconstitutional action, and warns that this decision will further raise the tensions in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone. However, on September 12, 2006, the Chairman of the Russian State Duma, Boris Gryzlov welcomed the appointed South Ossetian referendum and announced that Russian parliamentarians will observe the voting process. On September 13, 2006, the Georgian State Minister for Conflict Resolution Issues, Merab Antadze, issued a statement, condemning Gryzlov's statement as "destructive." [14]

On September 13, 2006, the Council of Europe (CoE) Secretary General Terry Davis commented on the problem, stating that

“The secessionist authorities of the South Ossetian region of Georgia are wasting time and effort on the organisation of a "referendum on independence" in November... I do not think that anyone will recognise the result of such a referendum. If the people in power in South Ossetia are genuinely committed to the interest of the people they claim to represent, they should engage in meaningful negotiations with the Georgian government in order to find a peaceful, internationally accepted outcome.

...That is how a true democratic process proceeds. If California held a referendum on independence without the go-ahead of the federal government it would be nothing but posturing. If Mexico then implemented a military takeover of California on the basis of said illegitimate referendum it would still have no right to declare that California was now going to become part of Mexico: it would simply be an attempt at military annexation.



Reply to mythatsabigprobe


In the above-mentioned scenario you would be accusing the US Federal government of holding onto California by military annexation! Pure codswallop.

Originally posted by pause4thought
Reply to mythatsabigprobe

In the above-mentioned scenario you would be accusing the US Federal government of holding onto California by military annexation! Pure codswallop.

Only if they bombed the crap out of Tshkinvalli. Oops, I mean Los Angeles.

Reply to mythatsabigprobe


1) Tshkinvalli is not in Abkhazia. So what you meant is 'Oops, I mean Salt Lake City'.

2) It still wouldn't be a democratic process

3) I have argued elsewhere that Russian 'peacekeepers' more than likely acted as agents provocateurs on orders from Moscow in order to fulfil Russian geopolitical objectives. But that's another story...

Originally posted by pause4thought
Reply to vox2442

...That is how a true democratic process proceeds. If California held a referendum on independence without the go-ahead of the federal government it would be nothing but posturing.

But that's exactly what Kosovo did, only 6 months ago.

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Austria, Belize, Belgium, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Canada, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Marshall Islands, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Nauru, Peru, Poland, San Marino, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Slovenia, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States have all agreed on that count.

reply to post by pause4thought


I would ask you to try and reconcile your comments with situation in Kosovo. Somehow, international bodies did not made mockery of Kosovo's bid for independence and in fact spent significant diplomatic, military and financial resource to assure the success of this "non-democratic" movement (and by the way its one time leader, Taci, was a bona fide gangster).

But when it comes to Ossetia, somehow, the drive for independence from Georgia is not considered seriously.

Historical note: some years ago, I was buying fruit in a market in Russia. The seller happened to be Abkhazian. I was asked whether I was Russian, to which I answered "yes", and then he and his wife proceeded to thank Russia and its people for taking care of Abkhazia and protecting them. He actually poured me a drink which I sort of had to accept (he was much older than I and I had to show respect). After we tosted, he revealed to me that his son was killed in the conflict with Gerogia.

True story.

Reply to vox2442

I admit we are entering murky waters at this point.

One of the things clear from the first paragraph of passage I quoted above is that both the Russian and the Georgian sides have been very aggressive in their approach to this issue, effectively making S.O. & Abkhazia political footballs. I would therefore not argue that either side is whiter than white.

As to your point about Kosovo I would find the analogy more convincing if the Georgian government had implemented a policy of deliberate ethnic cleansing. Yes, some are trying to portray the Georgian government in this light, but it is false to compare the actions of a government defending its territory against violent uprising with the government of Yugoslavia, which had a more malevolent agenda in the evnts leading up to, and during the Kosovo War.

For an insight into the mindset of the Yugoslav government of the time, take a look at a post made in their favour within the last hour (by Nikolas):

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by pause4thought
As to your point about Kosovo I would find the analogy more convincing if the Georgian government had implemented a policy of deliberate ethnic cleansing.

There was NO ethnic cleansing in Kosovo to speak of. The bespoke graves were not found. On the other hand, Serbian police on patrol was regularly ambushed and killed by Albanian thugs, and that was the degree of violence.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Not everyone would agree with your assessment:

en.wikipedia.org...

...and that was before the war even began.




[edit to fix link to wikipedia article on the Racak massacre]

[edit on 21/8/08 by pause4thought]