Why can't we require drug tests in order to draw welfare?

"I've heard your spiel on how much taxes you pay compared to the rest of us."

On that note, I like showing folks just how much tax "average" US citizens pay. These are "working stiff" taxes, not those that own a small business, etc.

Feds - 25% (no exemptions claimed).
State - 0-8% roughly, depending on the State.
Social Security - 7.5% (unless working for education, etc.).
Medicare - 1.45%

OK. For the average working stiff in the US, living in a State with the highest tax rate, they pay 41.95% in tax from each paycheck. Let's examine this further. This does not include local taxes, sales tax for purchases, property tax, excise tax (gas, etc.), etc. As well, it does not include insurance premiums, etc.

Whew. Damn. The average working US citizen sure the hell is paying a lot of taxes, aren't they?

Basically, my point is that the average citizen pays close to the same, or more in taxes than a lot of other countries, all things considered.

I do know that Denmark has the highest tax rate at a maximum of 90%. However, everything is provided to their citizens. Basically nothing is provided to US citizens in comparison to Denmark.

You could pay rent, or mortgage on a super cheap house or a mobile home. You could even buy a ratty little rv. It would be better than being on the street.

I know you are about to say they would loose their house or apt in one month.
That may be so, but having a shower, and a toilet, and a refridgerator would really help someone that is down get back up and find a job.

Think about it.
Who is going to hire someone with no access to a shower?

While a lot of the people would squander the oppertunity, and think that if it happened once, it would happen again, and probably even expect it. I believe that most would not.

but I am probably wrong. and people are just lazy.

I have to ask what exactly is the objection to this?

(it really depends on the type of drug I suppose) if it was something truely harmful like Meth or heroin you have every right to want her to stop if she is doing something that actually ruins the community

My guess is she sold Herb on the side, like alot of moms do.

But for all intents and purpose lets say she slung some herb to friends and people she knows...

what problem is there with a person getting over a little bit?

She came up with a way for her kids to get new bikes, k, so what... it's not like we are talking about scar face here

(frankly imho, there are alot of options less likely to cause problems social and legal then slinging a little)

But with that said, what do you care if someone else (who obviously doesn't have #te, herb doesn't make anyone rich unless they move bushels of the stuff a week) makes an extra 500.00 a month

America has always been us against them, the country was set up this way, why rat her out or resent her?

When it comes to money, real money escape velocity she isn't even close, obviously niether are you.

The whole point of a capitalist society is to Capitalize...

I think anyone on welfare shoudl do Something under the table and get there life in order!!! No one can live on that or repair their life with that alone.

anyone with have a head should do something off the books if they are poor for extra money, And legality isn't the issue, too bad, You only live once and if your in a pickle get out a can opener and open the jar...

Again, nat agreeing that slinging is the best option, but people use what they can use

It sounds like your miffed because you had to topil to get by, didn't get the welfare and then didn't get the new bike for your kids either...

For 7.00 an hr you couldn't find a job off the books and recieve some welfare?

I'm sorry (technically) that's illegal...

But you know what, when your boosted out of the conditions your in, you end up paying alot more in Taxes once you have a life.

The system by far, by far makes back ++ the few hundred bucks you skimped them when you were Ghetto

I never slung, but I did all sorts of crud, 2 years ago when divorced to get back in business I painted houses and did yard work and it was all cash for months... to get a new computer, to stabalize myself and because it paid me triple 7.00 an hr and I have Children!!!!

To me if your spending it on kids or your poor this is the equivalent of a "white lie"

Trust me when your making big bucks the IRS opens your door every couple of years and you pay them what you owe...

I'm sorry but, you had parents and got some help... so you were able to do it the way you did, but don't knock another poor persons head for taking a minor short cut, life isn't fair if your playing fair and your at the bottom you have a hell of a journey in front of you

When my son was born, I cut mistletoe off trees and sold it on the street before christmas and my kid got a his radio flyer Trike like I wanted

For all the web design clients I had in the last 10 years 80% were work at home moms and until this year paypal did nto report to the IRS, I don't know but I doubt most of them claimed their income those first years... I bet some collected food stamps etc, etc

and now those Moms have businesses that are thriving and surely now that paypal reports will be getting taxed out the rear and that tax will be much. much higher over a few years than a lifetime at 7.00 an hr

Your just not talking about drug cartels and professional criminals, your talking about normal shmos trying to get ahead in the world

When your making 30,40,50, 60 a year then the IRS is worried about you then your getting into territory where your really cheating the people around you

But some lady, making a few hundred extra bucks a month while on welfare isn't hurting anybody

and if she was doing something beyond slinging some M, she will get what she deserves

You know the war on drugs is already crazy... But, if it was something more than herb and this is her lifestyle...

How long is this going to go on? a few years before she dies, ends up in jail or rehab... no one plays with hard dope very long and gets away with it...

jail rehab? if she is screwing around with real poison... she will end up with Cancer or a failed liver or dead...

So, if she is into serious stuff, it's a self correcting problem Heroin or Meth will lose her her kids in 2 years tops, she wont be on Welfare, she will be lucky if she is alive, she wont have her kids very long

and if ... it's anything like some herb or working under the table... then shes maybe on her way to somewhere better, i don't resent this, i say... good luck, be safe, try not to let your kids see

We all break the law, don't hold a moral high ground like you never have

Have you ever sped, that can kill someone, ever made an illegal turn, jay walked, drank and then drove home? Ever had a fight that you didn't get caught for? What?

You'd single out people on welfare for slinging a bit like it affects your life other than "fair" which translates into..."hey I didn't have it so easy why should you" which is petty...

But you know whats 100x worse than dui and small time dope dealing

perscription offenses...

and every one is out there, no one tests people in car accidents for meds, no one tests people in Domestic violence for meds, or child abuse, or accidental injuries...

and how about this... drinking is illegal to drive, mild dope is such a huge crime...

How about Working 40 hrs a week and taking care of the kids and not getting enough sleep for days or weeks on end and then driving your car?

No way to test or prevent that huh? But what exactly is impaired? and forget the law, Moral vs immoral... how many senior citizens drive 20 years after theirlast test and can't see past their nose and also have blackouts lol, how many people are on scrips and mixing them... how many people are "impaired" without the dope? Just damn exhausted and not thinking clearly when they take a life...



and you know what, the whole lecture aside, that''s just my mercy on "everyman" vs the system.

Your better off, your behavior will reward you, she bought some bikes with some sling money, you, learned how to work...

Punishing people who... don't realize they are punishing themselves is fruitless, you were nobody with a kid and maybe it sucked but everything sucks in the beggining... your on a legit road up, she will be doing this in 10 years, let her "get over" in peace, she will use it and do something and thats good! Or she will not use it and destroy her life. And there is no punishment you can invent worse than that

reply to post by asmeone2

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asmeone2, again, you have a false premise. Do illegal mind-altering drugs have a net negative effect on people. Maybe a typical welfare recipient can have a happy "trip" every weekend and then go back to work Monday and function normally. Please present your evidence otherwise.

Maybe you have the opposite idea of what we should be doing. I propose a mind-altering drug stamp program in addition to the food stamps. You just put the stamp in your mouth to receive your benefit But again, I'm sure you must have the facts to back your position, so please point them out. Maybe you should be toking from a government-issued bong as you read this message.

reply to post by president

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I have more than once been homeless, at 17 when my parents kicked me out and just 2 years ago after my divorce.

My method was the same both time, a Gym membership to shower and stay (the 24 hr variety) it's healthy, you meet people and your clean... and a 40.00 prepaid cell phone (didn't have that when I was 17 used a friends phione #)

With those two things under 150.00 total you can get a job, the rest is just bareing the few weeks until you can answer a roomate ad for a few hundred bucks...

telemarketing will hire anyone and if you rent a room for a few hundred you will be well in excess of your expenses and going shopping agian in 30 days

and yeah 1,.00 in top ramen will feed you daily...

also, many bars give happy hr, free nachos and stuff...

Like I said, i was at 0 2 times in my life, the second by choice to prove I didn't need anyone and I never, ever took welfare

The thing is though if you ever hit rock bottom, you just...change, you either die, figuratively or literally

or you kind of find g-d, not in the religous sense, just... when you hit zero and realize you can still be happy, even on the street if your healthy... nothing much phases you after that

I'll never mind welfare, I have been lower than that and... so waht a few dollars from my taxes I work she doesn't... it's so small, it's so petty...

most people would die going through what I have been through, on the street and I came back and got rich... can't resent anyone doing what they need to or being part of helping out to see them avoid it...

I had fun, some people are just survivors...

But I met alot of homeless both times and saw alot of homeless Drop dead and some of them were nice guys, genuinely nice guys...

I honestly didn't suffer much at all...maybe I'm just really smart ... I bummed up at 17 enough for the gym membership on the street in a day, 2 days later I was on a phone selling newspapers, not long after that I was in an apartment...maybe a month tops...

and in that time, I brought more than one street friend to the emergency room and watched them die...

who cares about welfare after that?

Could you also not make the same argument for gun owners. Should they not be tested for drugs too. Of course not, because we do not want to be stepping on people's rights. Someone wants to use drugs with thier cheque, too bad for us.

You know, it's very interesting...

what is it in my attitude that I can get on my feet from homeless to up and running in a month or so everytime, why don't I ever get depressed or run for help, or never took welfare... or sold dope?

I can honestly say that... Choice of poison matters.

I think that psychadelics when young as opposed to opiates or narcotics or booze creates a certain mind set, in studies they say it has an effect on the reigous aspects of thinking and

I was always a hopeful guy, never got down

Drugs are all very different

I mean if it has to come right down to it...

Drug testing should never be done because those who do pyschadelics will get busted and the vast majority of them do very nove things with their lives eventually, more than most i would dare say... they tend to be, late bloomers like maturity onset is slower...

but, people who do everything else, die, beat people, fall apart, daze out become addicts

Our system treats all dope the same...and J.K was a head and she went on to Write ridiculous books about wizards..on welfare and became a Billionare....

Alchohol which is legal will get the kids of the parent your giving the welfare to killed sometimes

There just is no fairness to the way drugs are clssified

and yeah scrips, some of them are friggin sick, pecs and valiums and the rest... go get Johnny after school on 2-3 of those...

drug testing would reak because like every other aspect of our society, tweakers and pill popers and drunks will get away with it... mostly

and decent, positive minded people, the ones who will actually get off welfare one day will be the only ones busted for it...

reply to post by riggs2099

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Thats pretty funny.

Who would you rather own a gun an illegal MJ user or a Drunk?

Right there is your walfare and drug testing debate

Someone said it earlier in the thread, Booze is legal, alot of illegal things really don't come close to booze gone wrong in terms of damage, harm to human life, harm to yopur own life...

and it's legal... and i'd bet as that person earlier said, most of the welfare abuse is at the hands of drunks not drug addicts per say

reply to post by asmeone2

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I personally feel that any kind of drug testing before allowing employment is a total invasion of privacy, I feel like that is accusing the public of drug involvment and then weeding out the ones who PROVE they do not do drugs. Drug testing for jobs is WRONG. However, I do feel that in the welfare system many might actually benefit from such a program, as long as it does not leave mothers and fathers with small children going hungry because they smoked some weed. Such a program would have to include drug rehab, job rehab, educational benefits, ect. if the real purpose is to help the individuals asking for help.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by space cadet]

reply to post by asmeone2

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Same question then, except where I say alcohol, use the word marijuana or cocaine.
The same basic principle applies, why would anyone want to punish a person on welfare in this way? Aside from addiction problems, the moderate use would still be the same. Not everyone who has smoked marijuana, drank alcohol, or used cocaine is a junkie.

Isn’t the intoxicant being used merely a cultural difference? You do realize that the illegal drugs have only been illegal since the Nixon administration and the controlled substance act which was passed in the 1970’s. Prior to that, with some exceptions, white people drank, Mexicans smoked, and blacks used cocaine.

If you examine your history, you may find a few more surprises on this topic, but that is fuel for another post and thread altogether.

As far as drug testing for pre-employment goes, some jobs may always need to have this in place, most do not. Business owners, at least in my state, comply with this only to get a much lower workers comp tax rate, otherwise wouldn’t bother as it has proven to be completely useless and expensive. It is considered a political tool.

Or did I miss something?

reply to post by DingleberrySmurf

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Btw... lol who stared this?
I guess thats in response to my statement on lowest taxes.

Bro, who is your horrible accountant?

25% is where you start at over 31 K if your single and have no dpendents, under 8.5 K you don't even actually have to report to the Irs (and that's from the irs website)

if your head of houshold you don't hit 25% until over 40 K

which means your not starving, then your factoring in Social Security which is... Money you get back

25% as you put before deductions and exemptions and everything else you can hack off... I make alot, alot more than that and i'm still not that close to 25% and it goes above 25% for me (in theory) above 75K and I'm well above that most of my life and I still don't actually approach 25% ever



I mean okay, on paper in theory above 30 K if your single 40 K if your not (and btw the 25% marker holds for married couples until like 150 K before deductions and exemptions lol)

your comment holds at that point as you put before exemptions and deductions

and with that said, most of the people complaining about welfare tax costs are not above the 30 K lol and for every G above that you will care 1% less what the heck anyone is doing with welfare


There is nothing about this comment or any other anti welfare that leads me to believe anything other than: people who seriously think welfare is affecting them are all financially retarded

If your throwing these numbers out 25% that means ...lol, this is what your paying and I'd be pissed too! But you have to be pissed at yourself because it's mental

Even if you have a job, for the love of g-d, do your own taxes declare yourself exempt and use that Money all year to make YOU money not the fed...

deduct lots of stuff and open a business and buy a bunch of stuff you want to play with, use your tax money for that... if you make nothing all year, you still got a bunch of stuff for a new hobby that can potentially make some money in the future maybe... and your not paying all those taxes because it's a loss...write off your rent for the room you keep your new crap in too! and the power that supplies it...

Did you follow that?

you should never come close to paying 25% at 30 or 40 G a year and dang nothing practically if your below that But that's who whines about welfare the "almost" equally financially ignorant

YOU can write any number of exemptions you like on your tax form at any job... it's legal

when those taxes are owed, have your reciepts and use that money to Improve your life and it's all a deduction, you get several years to make that business your building with that money work... if it fails, you fold and go a new business because obviously the one you started sucks and try it again and again you get to take between 3-5 years of deductions per business you open, and you'll still have all the crap you bought for your old business... to help the new one,

and that's not factoring in all the exemptions like kids and the rest that you already may have

Start a business, declare fully exempt at your Job, fill out the papers and that's it, bring home your full paycheck use the money to buy useful things that can make you money... go buy a car to get you to your "meetings" write off the gas for work...

it's legal

Our tax system is very fair if you bother to understand it, no one, no one has the loopholes and exemptions we do

People say, "you don't want to be Audited"

WTF Not?

save your reciepts in a 10.00 file cabinet and let them knock themselves out, your not doing anything wrong...

Every American Job or Not if you live in a Capitalist society should be using your money to start businesses and learn, if your not... your not a capitalist, your in the wrong country, go to Sweeden

You can take a loss learning for 2-5 years depending on the type of business and write it off your taxes on any new business you start, you can start as many businesses as you like for the entirety of your life

You shouldn't be paying jack squat intaxes until such a point as you have a successful business that makes so much you have to

and seriously, is that a bad system? No! because at that point you will pay more in one year than you would have in the prevous 10 amyway, except when you finally do pay 43% it will be 43% of 2 Million and, you will never miss a red cent of it



Seriously get a real accountant man, seriously Read Rich Dad poor Dad by Kiyosaki, seriously do something to understand money other than cry...because no one is going to bring me a single valid point of why they are paying high taxes and have no money that I can not utterly bash into ignorance

Welfare if it affects you or your taxes affect you is your own issue, it's no different than the issues of people on welfare

from where I sit I do not see the difference between the welfare bashers and the people on welfare from a financial viewpoint, it's like an Ant and a Flea compared to the Garden they are both living in... So you work and they dont so what, your dependent on "the man" "the man" controls and takes your money and distributes it

You go in to work accept what your GIVEN for being there and sign the form letting them keep your money

Do you get it? YOU sign the Form that lets them take your money, you could declare exempt and invest it all year long and make money on that money until tax day

Get that? Business or not WTF are you paying taxes on the form each week and letting the fed make moeny on your money? Instead of you?

Calculate your taxes find a decent fast investment... I do double my money...Double, monthly on pay per click ads, find your own thing it's out there, keep that Money until april 15th and make money off it all year

You LET them hold it and they make money on your money all year long instead of you...

Taxes are due april 15th and if it takes longer and your earning enough to compensate the penalty hold it longer...

and start a business and take a loss people... NOT on purpose, just don't think your going to make money round one while working a job... but keep your money build it over the few years Your allowed to and don't sweat it... if it fails it fails, you won't owe any money and you'll keep the stuff you bought


Somebody made the point earlier about how the self employed shell out so much at the end of the year and that's who it really hurts

NO

they are bad Entreprenuers, they should take that 30% each week and (for example a landscaper) should take out ads... for more business it's a write off, or buy a lawn mower it's an expense or start a business for his wife it will take a loss that year

and pay next to nothing if these things fail to produce more money

and that's the joy, it won't fail most of the time to produce more money so you wont care if you do owe... you will be experiencing Growth

Gads!

25% I'd be pissed too at...lol everybody

Freakin learn how to handle your money and stop blaming bums and unfortunate people

Oh, I agree with all of the above. As long as it harms none, do what you will in your pursuit of happiness.

My point was that there are many here that, on the mere fact that some drugs are deemed "illegal" (and at least one major one very misguidedly so), this is an issue with them.

My point was that given the right to pursue happiness (within the limitation of any harm to others) it should not make a difference if an individual finds their happiness in drugs over food over the opposite. Because that is often the choice that is being made.

[shrug]

I, for one, don't believe we should institute any more drug testing in this country than we already have. We should do away with what we already have. I don't want to take on that topic though, as it would detract from the one at hand.

If we drug tested everyone on welfare then the government doing the testing would be obligated to do something about it. Such as jail the offenders, or put them into rehab programs. I would imagine both of those would cost more than welfare.

So I guess my question to you is: What do you propose doing with those that failed the drug testing?

Also, asmeone2 and 911fnord, I'm from Dallas too

Oh, I can see you don't understand much. I will only address the aspect of "our tax dollars" relative to M. (I could go much deeper, but anything else would slide completely off topic.)

To deal with M's illegality, the TAX PAYER pays for:

The Hunt - looking for dealers and users, creating sting operations, etc.

The Arrest

The Paperwork - clerks and office staff, etc.

The Attorney for the Prosecution

The Attorney for the Defense (often)

The Judge

The Courtroom - the space, the bailiffs, the guards, etc.

The Jail - food, clothing, etc.

How much do we taxpayers pay for all this FOR M ONLY per year?

Over 40 BILLION.

How much welfare can 40 billion provide?



I can't see how anybody can justify the expenditure of our tax dollars for a War on (some people who use some) Drugs.



And do what with them...?



I think it was pointed out that only a VERY small fraction stay on welfare over 4 years, and most are off by the two-year mark... Where is the F...RIGGIN' problem? We should punish EVERYONE in the system because a small percentage abuse?

I roll my eyes.

EDIT to add: Also, it would cost more to keep on top of these people than to just give 'em welfare.

[edit on 8/22/2008 by Amaterasu]

This topic discussion has nothing to do with Nuclear Weapons.

To answer your 1st question, a single mom can do 40 hrs of community service if she is not working in the 1st place. And if she is working, I doubt she's on welfare or eligible for it.

Who will take care of her kids ? Another welfare mom assigned to babysitting as her community service project.

Maybe we should show those kids videos of the history and discovery channels to get a good start on Constitutional and historical education.

So tell me: who gets to decide which "drugs" should be legal?

Why does ANYONE have a right to tell me what I can put into MY body?

Remember: bad diets cause more death and problems than all the illegal drugs combined, so should we outlaw the Big Mac?

Troos,

Whatever you want to put into your body on your own dime, is (in principle) fine.

However the issue I have is when someone else (the taxpayer) is paying it, and that person is allowed to use it on frivolous items, which someone who isn't on welfare might not be able to afford.

Welfare is not there to give the drawer every last convenience in life. It is for basic sustinence. Healthy food, shelter, ect.

Drugs classify as a perk, not a basic necesity. This cash should NOT be turned around to pay for drugs, especially not when they fuel an addiction.

As I've said several times already, what I'm not objecting to is the occasional use of "m" but people who use welfare to perpetuate their addiction.

I excluded alcohol testing from this since it is currently legal.

reply to post by asmeone2

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The simple answer here is that drug testing does not indicate who bought what, whether a substance was purchased with welfare money or if a boyfriend came over to visit, and brought a six pack of beer (feel free to substitute an alternate toxin here). Being a welfare recipient does not mean that a person can no longer be socially active, accept guests, sit down with friends and watch TV together, etc.

While it’s ok to bounce these ideas around, at the end of the day we have to come to the reality of the bureaucracy involved in managing the welfare system. By adding a routine drug test as a requirement to qualify and to continue receiving welfare assistance, you are adding a monumental expense.

Some would suggest that the tests do not cost that much and they base this on the home drug testing kits available at their local pharmacy. This is an unrealistic means to assess the actual cost of a legitimate and official test that potentially affects a person’s access to assistance. The type of test that would need to be used would be the same type used in court cases and involve a certified chain of possession of the sample tested and the results. That cost can range from a couple hundred dollars to well over a thousand.

We need to identify how often a test is to be administered and to which members of the family are required to take it. Once a week, once a month and to the adult member of the family should cover it in most cases. No doubt a contract will be awarded to a pharmaceutical company and another healthcare provider to handle the actual testing and testing supplies. History has taught us that a contract between a pharmaceutical company, a health care provider and the government will be very expensive

A family that is getting $687.49 a month in welfare assistance, now need to take a drug test that will double, triple or even quadruple the cost managing the bureaucracy which is in addition to the actual welfare assistance check.

I just don’t see it as a good idea from any angle.