Russia 'distributing passports in the Crimea' , page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 4 times
Topic started on 19-8-2008 @ 12:03 AM by Justice11

Russia 'distributing passports in the Crimea'


www.telegraph.co.uk
Ukraine is investigating claims that Russia has been distributing passports in the port of Sevastopol, raising fears that the Kremlin could be stoking separatist sentiment in the Crimea as a prelude to possible military intervention.
(visit the link for the full news article)


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 12:09 AM by Turiddu
reply to post by Now_Then


Yes, several years before this current conflict. I believe they also handed some out in Abhakzia as well.


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 12:18 AM by Turiddu
reply to post by WyrdeOne


It isn't really an act of aggression but the concern is that Russia will use the excuse of protecting "passport holders" as a guise to take control of the Crimea (home of a very important port for the Russian Black Sea Fleet, Sevastopol). When Russia occupied the two breakaway regions of Georgia it did so under the pretense of protecting "Russian passport holders".

The Crimea and other parts of the eastern Ukraine have many Pro-Russian allegiances so this scenario is not total fantasy I guess.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Turiddu]


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 12:18 AM by vox2442
reply to post by WyrdeOne


By giving out a passport to anyone who wants to be a citizen of your country, it's encouraging people who want to make the choice to separate to ... er... separate.

It's like Kosovo, only bad, because it's the Russians.


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 12:22 AM by jefwane
reply to post by WyrdeOne


When you have recent evidence that passports in the hands of a population in a particular region being used as a pretext for involvement and eventual invasion and occupation. It would be the moral equivalent of the US giving passports to a particular region of Cuba.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by jefwane]


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 12:35 AM by Justice11
Originally posted by jefwane
reply to post by WyrdeOne


When you have recent evidence that passports in the hands of a population in a particular region being used as a pretext for involvement and eventual invasion and occupation. It would be the moral equivalent of the US giving passports to a particular region of Cuba.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by jefwane]


Indeed.Its a crude form of false flag operations.Russia has now violated the ceasefire by not withdrawing from Georgia.As a matter of fact they moved closer to Georgia's capital.
Russia must be stopped at all costs,and Putin removed as he is now a threat to the world by threatening us with nuclear annihilation.


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 12:36 AM by WyrdeOne
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Thank you all for your reasonable answers. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm always appreciative of reasonable arguments.

*jefwane*
Well, the region in question has always identified with Russia more than Georgia, to the tune of 80-90% of the population I think. If they want to be Russians, and Russia will accept them, I don't see what's wrong with it. Does Georgia have some sort of right to lock people up and prevent them from giving their allegiance to another country? Seems like slavery.

Certainly they could legally kick out Russian citizens if it came to that?

I think the pretext for involvement is unnecessary, but maybe I'm wrong. The context for involvement in this case was the deaths of Russian citizens acting in the capacity of peace-keepers on S.O. soil.

*vox*
It was 'good' when Georgia wanted to separate from Russia, but it's 'bad' when S.O. wants to separate from Georgia. Why?

*Turiddu*
I think you sort of made my argument for me - these regions have a majority pro-Russian stance. They WANT to be affiliated with Russia. The breakaway republics obviously have governments that were installed by the West (except in maybe one case, I'm not sure about that one). Some citizens don't appreciate that turn of events.

Seems to me that in the spirit of freedom that ostensibly drove the color revolutions, places like Georgia and Ukraine should respect the rights of these regions that identify more with Russia. Their territorial integrity is, apparently, more important to them than the freedom of their citizens.

Where have I heard that before? Wasn't that the criticism that came from the West when Russia tried to intervene in Ukraine?

I dunno - but this all smells like hypocrisy to me. Politicians are standing up in these breakaway republics and saying "We deserve freedom from Russia, but you there, you don't deserve freedom from us!"

*justice*

Russia must be stopped at all costs,and Putin removed as he is now a threat to the world by threatening us with nuclear annihilation.


I must have missed that speech where Putin threatened to nuke America...

If you're talking about the Poland issue, you (and the MSM media) are blowing the comments made way out of proportion. I think you both know this...



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 19-8-2008 by WyrdeOne]


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 01:07 AM by WyrdeOne
reply to post by Justice11


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


My argument is so weak that you won't address it directly, but you have to pull out a straw man?

You think Russians are so stupid they don't know whether or not they like Putin? Have you actually seen the press coverage of the man in his home country? It's not all glowing.

If you just think Americans are genetically superior or something, there's no arguing with you - you will never see reason.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 01:09 AM by Justice11
Originally posted by WyrdeOne
reply to post by Justice11



My argument is so weak that you won't address it directly, but you have to pull out a straw man?

You think Russians are so stupid they don't know whether or not they like Putin? Have you actually seen the press coverage of the man in his home country? It's not all glowing.

If you just think Americans are genetically superior or something, there's no arguing with you - you will never see reason.

Ok np believe what you want have fun!


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 01:12 AM by jefwane
reply to post by WyrdeOne


I'm less concerned about the Georgai/SO passport/ethnic identification issue than I am about such activities if they turn up in parts of the Ukraine and Baltics. The Georgia/SO issue seems to have been let fester by all parties for whatever motives. If the issuing of passports to other regions comences it is no longer an isolated dispute and becomes a pattern of aggression.

Certainly Putin expected some type of reaction from the West over this. The question is, was he expecting some type of Chamberlainesque response or something closer to what we are seeing.

As one who grew up at the end of the Cold War, I had high hopes for the people of Russia's future. If there is any people that deserve the chance to live in peace and freedom for a little while it's them. They've suffered all the worst excesses of both pre-industial monarchy and industrial Communism. Putin at first seemed like the type of guy who could restrain the worst excesses of a more Capitalist system, but ended up turning into an Oligarch himself by impoverishing/imprisoning his enemies and enriching himself and his allies. Russia is blessed to be so mineraly rich, but when you see the lack of respect for private property and rule of law, one has to wonder if its worth it to do business with them.


reply posted on 19-8-2008 @ 01:15 AM by WyrdeOne
reply to post by Justice11


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


F.Y.I. - Your mascot, the laughing smiley emoticon, is not an acceptable substitute for intelligent discourse.

You haven't got a response to the comparison I made between the actions of Russia in regards to S.O. and the actions of America in regards to Georgia/Ukraine/etc., have you?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

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