Round 1: nine-eyed-eel v ragster: The Philadelphia Experiment

The topic for this debate is “The Philadelphia Experiment, in which a U.S. Navy Ship Was Made Invisible And Teleported, Actually Occurred."

nine-eyed-eel will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
ragster will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There are no limits on the length of posts, but you may only use 1 post per turn.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.


Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

This Is The Time Limit Policy
Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by MemoryShock]

reply to post by MemoryShock

Oooh, I love this, best topic ever - but I must slightly unpack some hidden presuppositions contained in my proposition. Because, while I agree wholeheartedly that what is called the Philadelphia Experiment actually occurred (with both unverifiable legend and generally accepted evidence conforming, given the limits of resolution from my point-of-view, pretty closely to the Wikipedia account) and that a visual description given by observers as something like " a U.S. Navy ship becoming invisible and teleporting", while not incorrect exactly, was made fundamentally incomplete by their old-timey lack of understanding (hey, I don't know the math either) of the esoteric physics involved in what actually occurred, namely, temporal dissonance, the last tail-flip of the tornado as two divergent many-worlds timelines back off of their future differences...leaving behind just what we do find in this case...stupidly incongruous stories (dismissible by even a silly child) which are yet maintained by oddly wistful humans with the devotion of a dog waiting for his beloved master's return..."I was on the ship" vs. "The microfilmed log says the ship was not there where you say it was" - both true..." I am Carlos Allende" vs. " I am mental patient Carl Meredith Allen" - both, and neither, cause they don't belong in the same place, the two streams dried up into one and you're left with a left bank and a right bank that don't match, pieces that don't fit..."The ship was briefly seen off of Virginia, it teleported" - not so much, the Virginia observers saw briefly into the other timeline, in which the ship was off of Virginia, but then they snapped back into their own...(and it ain't just the two timelines either, the Philadelphia Experiment point is the moment of the singularity where - and it's a rare event involving massive expenditure of energy on the part of UFO aliens who are actually post-relic-humans from different future versions fighting to make the future they are from remain manifested by sopping up the precursors of the timelines that produce their future rivals (a la Dan Burisch "Timeline 1 version 83 - can't tell the actors apart without a program - Vanna can I buy a vowel??"- but more on his work later) - two timelines get pulled back into the new one, ours, leaving this radiant odd eloquent evidence from that entire now-proscribed light-cone of futures...but then our branch immediately begins other divergent branches, all new different and infinite but without recapitulating the material from the timelines that the P.E. singularity undid, which is after all why the post-human-UFO-alien-clades took all this trouble in the first place ( " They are cheap, but relentless," our cadre of naval (future/human/alien
handler) officers whisper to each other, about their charges, at the barbecues " and they will hold their breath, and scuff their shoes So the best thing to do is just to let them have their way"

Greetings all and hello to my opponent nine.
Round 1 of the debate tournament.
May the best argument win.
Peace



Opening Statement.


The Philadelphia experiment or Project Rainbow has been a small topic of interest over the past century because it was actually nothing special. But it is one of the most misunderstood and humorous legends of mans ability to pass on stories. Many conspiracy theorists sit back in their chairs and believe the possibilities of this. Of what exactly? The ability either render a mass object invisible or teleport it; If this was in fact a science fiction movie yes that would be possible.


The ability to be “invisible” was used with the use of Magnets to render a ship invisible to Torpedoes and Mines. It truly is a misinterpreted and twisted through the century’s tale that the ship was actually invisible.
As in defense of the alleged Philadelphia Experiment, I am not going to debate whether this is possible or debate about multiple realities and alternate timelines. I am rather going to explain the current science and technologies of today and why the possibility of teleported nothing more than a beam of light is possible.

It is a long way from Star Trek, but teleportation - the disembodiment of an object in one location and its reconstruction in another - has been successfully carried out in a physics lab in Australia…

…The achievement confirms that in theory teleportation is possible, at least for sub-atomic particles…

Sources:
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
news.bbc.co.uk...

First of all I must speak apologetically because I somehow lost half of my first post, making my half of our joint endeavor here look more stupid than was necessary...
However I'm getting scared that we may have fallen out of debate and into agreement. I am quite willing to stipulate that under the technology and understanding of today it is impossible (till that Japanese guy does it) to teleport anything of the size of, say, an apple (and then we get into philosophical issues of identity i.e. did you teleport it or just scan it destroy it and then replicate something similar as far as you can tell to the limits of your instrumentation),since a literature review will show no one is doing it, and they would if they could...
But your con position is somewhat of a non sequitur, not merely to my pro opening statement, but to the set topic. Nobody ever said that the Philadelphia Experiment was the product of today's technology or theoretical understandings...
So if you prove the P.E./teleport bit impossible under today's technology/theoretical understandings, you have still not done your job of proving that the event did not occur.
Thus, two questions-
Just because we don't know how to do something now, does that make it impossible for someone else to have known how to do it sixty years ago? or to have done it by accident? or to have had advanced alien-style technological advice from advisors who lack nostrils and don't publish in peer-reviewed etc.?
And-
Merely because you and I cannot conceive of any of the details of a mechanism that would permit anomalous transfer of future technological knowhow to leave its (Philadelphia experiment telltale spoor) traces on an event in our past, does that automatically prevent such a mechanism/transfer from being ultimately the least strange explanation for some possible set of facts (Philadelphia experiment, for example) that we may encounter?
I don't know how the birthday magician did it, but I don't have to wait till I find the dead dove to admit that the party occurred.

The fact of the issue is, is that the PE never happened, the ship was never near the area where said occurred. My position is to defend and state that the experiment did not happen and show proof of how it is impossible.


Reply to Question 1

Just because we don't know how to do something now, does that make it impossible for someone else to have known how to do it sixty years ago? or to have done it by accident?

The chance of accidentally making something invisible or even teleport would have been quite known throughout the US Government, usually the unplanned and chance inventions are never hidden because it is never planned as top secret.


Reply to Question 2

The fact that the possibility of any device being made is proven wrong by the mere reality that today, there has been only sub atomic particles in this field of teleport. If no one can move a penny now, no one could have moved a 1200 ton ship in 1940’s.

As for the aliens and other helpful advanced races, the fact that an advanced would have interviewed is unlikely. For the simple fact it would logically and inconsistently not make sense in the time line of events.



Rebuttal

As stated before the Philadelphia Experiment if anything was a huge misunderstanding. Jumbled words of a machine to make a ship somewhat undetectable by sonar and the use of magnetic torpedoes would render useless.

For further proof that so called Philadelphia Project did not contain the USS eldridge, which is the only ship said to be part of it, here is a detailed log sheet of where the eldridge was in the fall and winter of 1943.

you have still not done your job of proving that the event did not occur.

From Navy Archives.

The ship involved in the experiment was supposedly the USS Eldridge. Operational Archives has reviewed the deck log and war diary from Eldridge's commissioning on 27 August 1943 at the New York Navy Yard through December 1943. The following description of Eldridge's activities are summarized from the ship's war diary. After commissioning, Eldridge remained in New York and in the Long Island Sound until 16 September when it sailed to Bermuda. From 18 September, the ship was in the vicinity of Bermuda undergoing training and sea trials until 15 October when Eldridge left in a convoy for New York where the convoy entered on 18 October. Eldridge remained in New York harbor until 1 November when it was part of the escort for Convoy UGS-23 (New York Section). On 2 November the convoy entered Naval Operating Base, Norfolk. On 3 November, Eldridge and Convoy UGS-23 left for Casablanca where it arrived on 22 November. On 29 November, Eldridge left as one of escorts for Convoy GUS-22 and arrived with the convoy on 17 December at New York harbor. Eldridge remained in New York on availability training and in Block Island Sound until 31 December when it steamed to Norfolk with four other ships. During this time frame, Eldridge was never in Philadelphia.

As you see (above) the dates the ship was at port, this frankly contradicts the alleged dates and places (below) of the time the ship was to of said, teleport, or become invisible.

at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, sometime around October 28, 1943

Just in case if the Unified Field theory comes about.

The Office of Naval Research (ONR) has stated that the use of force fields to make a ship and her crew invisible does not conform to known physical laws. ONR also claims that Dr. Albert Einstein's Unified Field Theory was never completed.

More on literal invisibility due to electromagnetic fields, also known as “degaussing”

Degaussing equipment was installed in the hull of Navy ships and could be turned on whenever the ship was in waters that might contain magnetic mines, usually shallow waters in combat areas. It could be said that degaussing, correctly done, makes a ship "invisible" to the sensors of magnetic mines, but the ship remains visible to the human eye, radar, and underwater listening devices.

More over.

After many years of searching, the staff of the Operational Archives and independent researchers have not located any official documents that support the assertion that an invisibility or teleportation experiment involving a Navy ship occurred at Philadelphia or any other location.

Questions

Question 1
What evidence do you have that shows or proves that the Philadelphia Experiment ever occurred?

Question 2
Do you have any other proof, as personal diaries, or logs, any type of persons that have came forward to say that the Philadelphia experiment ever actually happened?


Sources:
www.history.navy.mil...
www.history.navy.mil...
en.wikipedia.org...

As it seems my opponent possibly has fallen into a predicament to where he has not been able to continue this debate. In this event I state my closing facts as in the post before.

The USS Elderidge was never involved in any Philadelphia Experiment and therefor my argument is now and in all means proven true by factual evidence.

thank you all

ragster will advance to the second round.