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Many think God's intervention can revive the dying

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posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by C.C.Benjamin
 





How about this for a strange concept to follow, if you want to talk history: for 160,000 years of modern man's existence, for 158,000 years, he did not have a concept of Heaven or Hell! Yes, that's right, every generation before the birth of Jesus is currently in Hell, festering away because God was too busy to tell them about the afterlife and what you must do to get there! God even forgot to tell Moses! Doesn't seem right to me, what about to you?


Uh, do some research. Christianity aside, every major religion is based on the concept of an afterlife of some sort, including a Heaven for those who are good people and a hell for the bad seeds.

For example,
Egyptians: Heaven- Fields of Yalu, Hell - Den of Ammit 4,000 BC
Zoarosterians: Heaven & hell 1,000 BC

We don't know anything about religion prior to that as far as Heaven is concerned, as the earliest writing discovered dates from around that time in ancient Mesopotamia.

As for the idea that the Old Testament doesn't talk about Heaven, how untrue. Elijah, Enoch, Eliazar, Jabaz all were assumed into Heaven, not even knowing death while on Earth. As for the idea of dying and then going to Heaven along with the concept of purgatory, limbo, etc... it was pretty much prophesied throughout the Old Testament that there would come a Messiah to be sacrificed and resurrected who would the take the worthy dead to Heaven with Him. They knew they would go to heaven if they had lived a life of Faith and recieved God's Grace, they merely didn't know the day or the hour when it would happen. The signifigance of the assumptions of the living into Heaven in the Old Testament and no mention being made of the dead ascending in the Old Testament is that Jesus was the first and was the link between God & Earth. Fully man & fully God, his resurrection was the way into Heaven (which is why He is called "the way", FYI).

I'm not trying to prosylethise here, although I'm starting to feel like that's the way anything I put here will be taken. The fact is, whether this makes me a "good" Christian or a "bad" Christian is debateable, I could care less what happens to your soul. If you want to spend your life disbelieving in God, it's your call and none of my business... what is my business, however, is that most atheists take it upon themselves to do exactly what they bitch and moan about Christians doing; trying to convert everyone around them and berating those who don't believe as they do. That's what this video was trying to do and it's what you seem to be trying to do.

If someone wants to believe that God will heal them after medical science has failed, how is that hurting you? Are you that afraid that it might happen and suddenly you'll be forced to realize that maybe there is a direct consequence to your lack of faith? Is your belief in your position so weak that you require the safety and comfort of more like minded converts surrounding you as if the idea of Heaven, Hell, and God's existance is a majority rules concept in which the majority decides the reality of His being?

You want an end to religious involvement in public life, correct? Did you realize that you are a liar? You don't want an end to religion... you want an end to any religion other than your own, the religion of atheisim. By definition and by practice, atheism has become a religion unto itself. You have developed tenets, you have developed your own faiths, you have even developed rituals designed to prosylethise and convert people over to your beliefs.

I called the guy who did that video a "douchebag" not because of his beliefs, but because of the condescending manner in which he attempted to dismiss my beliefs. The difference there is that I'm calling someone out over their attitude and their personal actions, whereby I'm getting called out for my beliefs. I'm "not intelligent" because I believe in God according to him. Do you see what I'm getting at here? He challenges Christians to "use logical thinking" and then proceeds to do exactly the opposite himself.




posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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Funny you should bring this up.
I live in an area that’s heavy into tourists this time of year - and that means the ambulance zips by at least 3 times a day.
I say a prayer each and every time.
Why not?
It doesn't hurt me - makes me feel better - and it sure as heck doesn’t hurt the person in the ambulance.
Any positive energy - is just that - positive energy - whether you choose to believe God hears you (as I do ) or not.
As for those people who like to scoff and growl and ridicule - I’d love to be a fly on the wall when THEY are *caught in the trenches* - or it’s their baby girl that’s been hit by a car, or their friend dying right in front of their eyes.
Oh, and by the way, to those same people who are SO sure there is no divine intervention thanks to prayer?
Name me one person who came back from the dead to tell you they got back on their own?



And if you pray for rain don't forget your umbrella...



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 03:45 PM
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Why do these discussions always turn into a debate as to whether or not there is a God? There is no proof scientifically there is a God at the same time there is no proof there is not a God.
Guess what we will all find out when we die.


This was about the number of people who believe in the power of prayer/positive thought. This story does though seem to make it out like those who pray never go to the doctor when in fact I don’t know any who substitute one for the other. I even posted an article in this thread about 55% of doctors who believe in God.

I don’t care what they believe as long as they know what they are doing. As for pray bring it on. If I am in serious need of help I’ll take all the prayer I can get. Again I think that prayer does increase positive thoughts and does indeed help for a quicker recovery. If it does not help what harm has come of it really?

Raist


[edit on 8/20/08 by Raist]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by Sonya610
If Christians believe prayer can heal loved ones, then we should be glad they don't believe prayer can also make people sick, though many apparently do believe their god will help them slay their enemies in times of war (fine line if you ask me).

Anyways, we should be glad they are not consistent because if they were we would have witch burnings left and right just as they do in some primative cultures. Those people believe if someone got sick it's because someone else was praying or otherwise seeking divine intervention to cause harm to their family member.

[edit on 20-8-2008 by Sonya610]


Good point. People who believe in witchcraft (excluding Wiccans) often do pray and cast spells for the destruction of their enemies.

The easy answer is God doesn't hear such prayers. But that's an easy answer.

I asked a Christian Scientist that question once and the answer was God rejects such prayers and a person who indulges in them brings suffering upon themselves.

But the question remains: if prayer can cause health why couldn't it, inversely, cause sickness?


[edit on 20-8-2008 by Sestias]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by burdman30ott6
Uh, do some research. Christianity aside, every major religion is based on the concept of an afterlife of some sort, including a Heaven for those who are good people and a hell for the bad seeds.


My prophecy comes true, you avoided every other point I contradicted. Behold! I am the new messiah. Prove I'm not.

And you're wrong. Judaism does not have an afterlife. Sheol is the grave, and the heavens are the sky. Nothing happens after you die, in Judaism, just ask Moses.


Originally posted by burdman30ott6For example,
Egyptians: Heaven- Fields of Yalu, Hell - Den of Ammit 4,000 BC
Zoarosterians: Heaven & hell 1,000 BC


Egyptians: never heard of those two, you'll need to provide some evidence.

Zoroastrianism: erm vaguely alluded to in the Gathas, but not specified, and no-one knows just how old Zoroastrainism is. 1000BC is the earliest possible, and is more likely much younger.

Either way this isn't relevant, as the bible specifies, as every other holy book does, that THIS religion is the ONLY religion and every single other one is WRONG.

This means that 158,000 years of generations before Christ even existed (apparently) were farked (that's still not a swear word, mods!) from the get-go, by the very creator god who was supposed to love them so!



Originally posted by burdman30ott6We don't know anything about religion prior to that as far as Heaven is concerned, as the earliest writing discovered dates from around that time in ancient Mesopotamia.


Which leads me onto this:


Originally posted by burdman30ott6As for the idea that the Old Testament doesn't talk about Heaven, how untrue. Elijah, Enoch, Eliazar, Jabaz all were assumed into Heaven....", FYI).


And when they mention the heavens, they are talking about the sky. This is all they are ever talking about. He went up into the heavens, not into some mythical afterlife. I'd be more convinced he was taken by ancient aliens than by God.



Originally posted by burdman30ott6I'm not trying to prosylethise here, although I'm starting to feel like that's the way anything I put here will be taken.


I'd be amazed if you gained any converts with the assertions you've made here. You've done what every religious type does, and that's make a bunch of statements regarding your favourite tome of fairy tales with absolutely nothing within lifes entire scope of offered experiences to back it up. At all, ever.


Originally posted by burdman30ott6The fact is, whether this makes me a "good" Christian or a "bad" Christian is debateable, I could care less what happens to your soul.


Thats...so incredibly un-Christian. Aren't you supposed to love your fellow man, and what-not? Aren't you supposed to care for others? Why wouldn't you be concerned for my soul?

This is made redundant by my next request: show me a soul or any evidence thereof. It's a rhetorical request, because there is no proof to be had.


Originally posted by burdman30ott6If you want to spend your life disbelieving in God, it's your call and none of my business...


That's not what I want at all. This is a typical line from "religious types" because they've come to the end of their argument, presented nothing in the way of convincing arguments or evidence, and are now simply defending their exit.

I don't want anything, other than to know the truth. If the universe presents the big bang theory, followed by abiogenesis and then evolution, then that's what the universe presents to us. I'm only interested in fact, I'm not interested in making this stuff up.


Originally posted by burdman30ott6what is my business, howeve... That's what this video was trying to do and it's what you seem to be trying to do.


I'm not even suggesting you shouldn't believe in a God. There might be one, or many. All I know is that he shows absolutely no sign of any interest in what happens to humanity.

What I am suggesting is that you DO NOT KNOW. You don't know, your pastor doesn't know. The Pope doesn't know, and some desert-blasted, dessicated madman of ancient times who comes stumbling off the desert claiming that God spoke to him CERTAINLY doesn't know.

If I told you God spoke to me, would you believe me? Of course not. Even if I had a watertight story, you'd think me mad, so why believe some ancient loon with a psychological disorder?

Epilepsy used to be known as the prophet's disease, because people thought the God(s) would touch a person and that's how it manifested itself. Now we know they simply had a brain disorder. Isn't science great?


Originally posted by burdman30ott6If someone wants to believe that God will heal them after medical science has failed, how is that hurting you?


Because it is wilfully propagating ignorance. All I want is for you to think for yourself, and look around you and weigh up the evidence.


Originally posted by burdman30ott6Are you that afraid that... Is your belief in your position so weak that you require the safety and comfort of more like minded converts surrounding you as if the idea of Heaven, Hell, and God's existance is a majority rules concept in which the majority decides the reality of His being?


You're joking, right? Religion has always been about majority rules. The first Christians learned about that the hard way, when the pagan Romans threw them to the lions or cruicified them.

Science is about evidence, and evidence alone.



You want an end to religious involvement in public life, correct? unto itself. You have developed tenets, you have developed your own faiths, you have even developed rituals designed to prosylethise and convert people over to your beliefs.


This is the worst argument I've ever heard. Athieism is not, and cannot be a religion. This is another fundamental falsehood that religious types take.

You wish it was a religion, because then you'd have some grounds to say "hey, my position is just as valid!" when you know it isnt. There are no tenets, no rituals and no beliefs, science does not permit faith in any way. There are no laws to follow, no requirements and no absolutes without proof.

You can lie to yourself, but don't accuse me of lying simply because I'm poking holes in your world view.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 05:06 PM
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Hey, if the religious want to refuse the information a doctor has, and pray for some kind of miracle, fine. Let them weed themselves out of the human race.

I'm all for freedom... it should only take a couple of generations of these people dying before this nonsense stops and they start listening to reality and science again.

[edit on 20-8-2008 by johnsky]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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What for one is truth can be myth for another. " Atheist" and religious fanatics make me cry. Consider this if you believe that you will reincarnate after you're death you most certainly will. Atheist who believe they cease to exist will cease to exist, it's all your choice. It's the same for miracles . So I ask me this question. Why would you willingly want to live in a world without divine intervention? All you have to do to get a miracle is to believe in it. Do you people always need to be right in even if you face death? Atheism is most definitely not the way of the future the same goes for religious fanaticism.
One last question what is all matter made of?



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by C.C.Benjamin
 


I didn't "avoid" anything whatsoever. If there were comments you made that I didn't directly address in my latest reply it's because I had already addressed them in my earlier one and I tend to not enjoy repeating myself.

I am incapable of "proving to you" that God exists just as you are incapable of proving to me that he does not. That is the nature of God and of Faith. You already knew that, however. Prove to me that aliens exist. Hell, prove to me that YOU exist. You think you exist, you believe you exist... does that mean that if someone comes along and says you do not exist that it's true? Of course it doesn't.

If you told me God spoke to you, I'd ask what He said. After you told me what He said, I'd compare it to what we know about God and his message to determine if it passes the test. If that proved to be a true test, then I would hjave no right to doubt your statement that God spoke to you.

Do not presume that I have "absolutely nothing within lifes entire scope of offered experiences to back it up" either. Just because I don't tend to make threads about my personal relationship with God does not mean that I don't have a testimony or that I haven't witness the Lord's hand in my life. Quite the contrary. The fact is, I don't run around prosyletising about it because Jesus instructed his people to offer the Good Word once and, if rejected, kick the dirt from their feet and not offer it again to the rejecters.

Also, because you clearly do not "get it", using the early Christians and their struggle against the Romans as a concept of religion being about majority rule was laughable when compared to what I said about atheists today. The early Christians actually never met in large groups because of persecution. Services were usually 3 or 4 believers gathered in a believer's home, quietly praising God and sharing the Word. The fact that Christianity survived as time passed demonstrates exactly why "majority rules" is a concept that has no place when discussing Christianity. In fact, the majority of the world isn't Christian and, as is evidenced in this very thread, those of us who are generally are persecuted far more stringently than atheists or non traditional religious people are. How many times in your life have armed guards come and taken a fellow atheist to torture or to be thrown to lions? What? Never? Oh... I see. Christians are still being killed for their beliefs in places like China and the Middle East.

Also, enough with trying to discredit what I say by making a blanket statement about how I'm "just like all other Christians." No, I am just like me. I think for myself and I say what I feel. If I had questions of my faith, I'd happily state them and I have done so in the past. Like all children, I went through my "God doesn't exist or care about me" phase in my late teens/early 20's. It was quaint and very sheeplike of me as all of my friends were doing the same. When I got out on my own and found myself living in a strange city and not knowing anyone it was then that I discovered that I still had God with me, watching over my life. I glanced down and saw that single set of footprints in the sand, if you will.

Until the day thats science actually proves God doesn't exist, I will believe in Him. That day, however, will never occur because science can't prove He doesn't exist. The same cannot be said in reverse, because there will come a day in the not too distant future when each and every man, woman, and child stands before the throne and hears their name called. I figure it's best to err on the side of caution lest I not recognize the voice calling my name when it happens.

Now, if you want to continue this, feel free to start a thread about it. I figure we've tried the mods' patience on topic jacking about enough for this thread.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by johnsky
Hey, if the religious want to refuse the information a doctor has, and pray for some kind of miracle, fine. Let them weed themselves out of the human race.

I'm all for freedom... it should only take a couple of generations of these people dying before this nonsense stops and they start listening to reality and science again.


The article doesn't say that people refuse the doctor's information or expertise, only that many continue to believe in the possibility of God's intervention in the face of death. This includes many doctors and health care professionals. In other words, if the doctor says a patient will probably die the family might still hope and pray.

There is no evidence that people who pray for the dying in addition to seeking medical help have any shorter life spans than those who don't.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:47 PM
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Reply to burdman and C.C. Benjamin:

I have been following your discussion with interest. Both of you are informed and articulate.

The only thing I can add is that burdman does not strike me as fanatical, and I'd like to remind CC that science is not infallible.

With that said, continue the discussion. You might, however, refer to the posted article from time to time.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by rjmelter
 


We grant our own wishes? We answer our own prayers? Praying makes people selfish? This is definately different for me.. I'll say that first..

Then why do Christian's pray? Is it because all Christian's are ignorant?
You are apparently a devout believer in the reality of a god, not the god as it is portrayed in the bible. That makes it easier for you to answer these 10 questions. God may be real, god may not, But it doesn't take away from the point of the video.

You seem to be an intelligent design believer but I fail to understand why you see it necessary to connect the dots between reality and God if nothing we do in reality ever matters to god (this includes praying obviously). If god really is omnipotent then all our fates and everything that will ever be has already been decided. IMO, The human belief in god, in the form of organised religion, is a man-made fallacy. Religion is the delusional core of modern culture. Men kill other men, they always will, therefore men will also always kill for religion/god also. Religion will always result in death and suffering. Is it really that logical to believe in any one religion while the majority of people in the planet do not?

Why would an all-loving god make people suffer for all eternity? Don't we already have a hard enough time trying to simply survive day to day without getting shot or hit by a tractor trailor? Yet, at the end of life we recieve death and eternal suffering if we refuse to accept christ? I'm pretty sure God would have more important things to worry about..

-ChriS



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 12:53 AM
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reply to post by burdman30ott6
 


Well I'm pretty impressed you actually watched it. I would think most Christians would not bother watching the first minute or so. And I'm glad it made you think and make a valid argument. I'm sorry if you think this was some kind of personal attack on my part, but I did not make the video.

I really do believe in a "god", whatever you want to call it. There are many reasons why.. but I am not one who subscribes to the religious side of spirituality. I don't think any less of someone because they have a different spiritual belief than I, as I am not so arrogant as to think I have everything all figured out. I do not subscribe to "new age" spiritual values either, nor do I believe crystal children are even real. But when you see all these different religious and spiritual beliefs that all conflict with each other and the bickering and wars it causes between people, it just seems completely arrogant to somehow believe in one religious faith and believe everyone else is wrong. Especially if those same devout beliefs are really based on faith... Its different for me looking from the outside in, but although I am anti-religion these days, I wasn't always like that.

I grew up in a household that was largely non-religious, though when I lived with my grandparents they were devout Southern Baptists. But I realized that in sermons the preacher would say things that really made my skin crawl.. He would denounce every other religion and the believers in those religions as evil. But that didn't make any sense at all to me. Ever since then I've strayed from a religious lifestyle because I choose to. I do have some very strong spiritual beliefs but they come with no religious strings attached and, no , I am not a devil worshipper.

Pre-judging other human beings based on faith is completely different than judging people for their character and what they honestly believe. And that is very true for this preacher I was just talking about. Religious followers have always clung to their faith as being real while all others are false or heretical. That kind of ignorance drives me nuts.. IMO, Its the same for people who literally believe scripture as being real verbatim. The bible, as I see it, is more or less a few general guidelines that one can follow to make a better life for themselves. That's it. The fear of eternal torment in the burning pits of hell has always been an effective tool for convincing people they need to change their ways. Religion in the middle ages is a great example of this.

-ChriS

[edit on 21-8-2008 by BlasteR]

[edit on 21-8-2008 by BlasteR]



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by HEroX
 


Um... what?

You claim whatever you believe and pray for will come true?
Wow... imagine if that were true, just about every ugly guy on the planet would have their very own playboy bunny. Every ugly girl would have David Hasselhoff. War would never start, ever, and pretty much everyone would be rich.

Give me a break.

It has nothing to do with how much you pray, or what you believe in, it has everything to do with what you do to MAKE it happen.

Counting on a figment of your imagination to swoop in and make your dreams come true is only going to leave you dead and or heartbroken.



As for the other responder, I see where you're coming from, but the article does also cover the right to refuse a doctors opinion and continue praying for an alternative.

Praying, along with a doctors assistance has never been banned, hence, would never have to be re-permitted again. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

This is about choosing religious prayer over expertise.



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 04:58 AM
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Prayer has been known to have a positive effect on the sick, its through belief that something will intervene that people find the strength to carry on. A lot of hopeless people who are sick tend to die, sure god may not save you but belief in him may give you that positive edge you need to survive.

I find it funny how many times Ive read on here that religion is the root of all evil and people who believe are morons or some other negative nonsense. I personally am not a religious person although there have been more positive people that have come out of religion than anything else. I dont recall Mother Theresa helping all those people for a photo op. Religion can be used to for immoral reasons but so can a happy meal.

Religion isnt the problem its the inability to leave people alone that's the problem, if they believe let em. Personally Id find it quite amusing to find that there is a god and everyone had it wrong and looks on people's faces when he passes judgement. Ive always felt let people do and think what they want unless they come and personally effect your ability to be alive.



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by Kahis
Prayer has been known to have a positive effect on the sick, its through belief that something will intervene that people find the strength to carry on. A lot of hopeless people who are sick tend to die, sure god may not save you but belief in him may give you that positive edge you need to survive.

Religion isnt the problem its the inability to leave people alone that's the problem, if they believe let em.


Studies have been done, some more scientifically than others, to determine whether prayer has any positive effect on the sick. For instance, one study compared a group of seriously ill patients who were regularly prayed for with a control group that did not use prayer. The results have been varied. Some studies concluded that there were beneficial effects, for example a more rapid period of recovery. Others could find no correlation. I am not informed as to exactly how the research was done on each one so I can only guess about their methodology.

My own experience has been varied. Some prayers have been answered, some haven't. I am never certain if the answered prayers would have had the same conclusion had I not prayed.



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by Kahis
Prayer has been known to have a positive effect on the sick, its through belief that something will intervene that people find the strength to carry on. A lot of hopeless people who are sick tend to die, sure god may not save you but belief in him may give you that positive edge you need to survive.


It's not the belief of intervention that gives you the strength to get better... it's the desire to fight it that does. The prayer part is just a natural reaction for religious people who have that desire to fight it, the rest of us merely hope and fight.

I know what you mean about believing you'll get better, but it's not a religious thing. It's mind over matter.

I myself just tell myself I have a deadline to be well by, and trick myself into believing if I'm not well by then, too bad, I'll continue working regardless... you'd be surprised how well your immune system listens to you, when you don't give it an option.

If you want to be sick, you'll be sick. If you don't want to be sick, you'll get better quicker. It has nothing to do with prayer, and everything to do with desire.


When you give up on your body, your body gives up on you.




[edit on 21-8-2008 by johnsky]



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by C.C.Benjamin
 





Also, because you clearly do not "get it", using the early Christians and their struggle against the Romans as a concept of religion being about majority rule was laughable when compared to what I said about atheists today. The early Christians actually never met in large groups because of persecution. Services were usually 3 or 4 believers gathered in a believer's home, quietly praising God and sharing the Word. The fact that Christianity survived as time passed demonstrates exactly why "majority rules" is a concept that has no place when discussing Christianity. In fact, the majority of the world isn't Christian and, as is evidenced in this very thread, those of us who are generally are persecuted far more stringently than atheists or non traditional religious people are. How many times in your life have armed guards come and taken a fellow atheist to torture or to be thrown to lions? What? Never? Oh... I see. Christians are still being killed for their beliefs in places like China and the Middle East.



i'd just like to point out that it can be argued that the only reason christianity survives today is because of a roman emperor by(i believe) the name constantine. Who for whatever reason, political or otherwise, decided it would from then on be the state religion. he then went on, as countless others in europe up untill quite recently in historical perspectives, to spread "the faith" by the sword. quite literally, convert or die. if not for that and the observable fact that most,not all, people only claim their respective religion because it's how they were brought up, it may well have dropped off the face of the earth, or remained within a small group of people as in the beginning.

dont get me wrong, i'm not saying you or others can't believe as they wish. personally i'm "pagan" and it irritates me as well when people basically say i'm stupid for believing as i do. but let's all be honest, at one point or another most faiths are only maintained through force.

as for the OP, really...who cares...it's their constitutional right to believe how they wish. i dont find the numbers suprising at all. it's not like they're going to infect me with "jesus cooties"



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by optimus primal

as for the OP, really...who cares...it's their constitutional right to believe how they wish. i dont find the numbers suprising at all. it's not like they're going to infect me with "jesus cooties"


Ah, we're back to the original topic, though I've enjoyed the digressions.

I originally asked what people's experiences have been. Some chose to respond with a judgment.

Much of the srticle was focused on how the medical community should respond when the families of the dying believe in divine intervention.

You've given your opinion concisely. Thank you.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by johnsky
 


I agree entirely with what you're saying, I just think that for some people mind over matter takes the form of religious thinking. If you just pray cause you're sick it probably wont help, if you truly believe god will help you Im sure it becomes a mind over matter event.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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By reading moust off these replys . I can see that moust off you dont know what God and religion is all about.

If you pray to God to get something, do you realy think God is going to give it to you. No!!! God and religion is not about human needs. God is not here to satesfy us and ouer needs. You are here on earth to satesfy God.




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