Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

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posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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Prophet;

Starting young is what happened in this case. We grew up in Germany and alcohol was easy to get back then. I knew he was drinking but never told anyone, so I guess that is what I have to deal with. Maybe guilt on my lack of action.

As far as I know he never took any of my fathers whiskey, but then again you never know. I stole some of cigarettes once and that was not pretty. Maybe that fear of my father kept me from telling him about my brother.




posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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cap I feel for you and your situation. After reading a few of the posts, I think I may have a different opinion on this one.

I grew up in an extremely abusive home with alcoholics and substance abusers. Even after my parents divorced, my mom continued to bring home and eventually marry other alcoholics, so there was never a time I can remember there not being parties and drugs and alcohol and abuse.

My brothers and I all moved out as early as possible. I was 16 at the time and after getting my feet on the ground and making life as stable as possible I was finally able to go back and at least visit with my mom. Even after everything she'd done, deep down I still loved and needed her. But 9 out of 10 times she'd become emotionally and/or physically abusive to both myself and my husband. We got into a vicious cycle or re-establishing a relationship, only to have her crap all over it a few months in, and we'd retreat again for a few months.

Finally after 22 years of taking her abuses over and over again, I HAD to call it quits. I was emotionally drained from her constant belittling, financially drained from her constant borrowing to pay utilities that were about to be shut off, and physically exhausted from fighting her off. My husband and I were on the verge of divorce ourselves and our son was completely confused as to what was wrong with grandma.

For my family's and my own sanity I did finally break all ties. We changed our phone number and as soon as possible moved to a new home. We begged everyone to never give her any information about us, and everyone honored our request. I haven't seen her now in almost 13 years, and honestly a HUGE weight lifted off of my shoulders the day I made the decision. There are still family members that are involved with her that always call to tell me her latest tirade of abuse towards them and I'm so glad I "got out".

I know this was a very extreme decision and not one to take lightly. You do have the advantage of it being a sibling rather than a parent, so you could even just take a step back and take a break for a while.

I also have an idea of how difficult it is for alcoholics to change. I myself, probably due to environment was already heavily into drinking by the time I was 14. I finally enrolled myself into counselling at 17, after a really bad situation happened, and by the time I was 19, was able to maturely handle alcohol, or turn it down if I so felt. I know it's not the same as my parents who have now drank for so so so many years, but I can't help but feel when they knew their relationship with their children was in jeopardy they would've tried something if they truly cared. The fact that my mom didn't shows me what her priorities were.

Good luck with whatever decision you make....it's a horrible burden to carry around...

Michelle



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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I know its hard but try not to despise him, there is obviously a reason he feels the need to turn to drink and until he addresses this himself he cannot begin to treat his alcoholism.
My father was an alcoholic virtually all his adult life and I grew up with this as the norm. He was never a violent drunk just mentally abusive, and it affected me a lot, especially as a teenager.
I can totally understand why you feel this way, there were times when I felt I truly hated him, and when I left home at 18 barely spoke to him for years.
ironically enough we had just started to re-build our relationship when he was rushed in for an operation to fix a burst ulcer (a direct result of a bottle of vodka a day)
His last co-herant (sp) words to my mother were 'I can never drink again can I?' before he went delirious then into multi organ failure. I believe to this day that was why he gave up on life, because he valued the drink above everything else.
but I cannot hate him now. If I did then it would ruin my life and make me bitter. I am at peace with him now. I actually understand some of it as I have inherited his addictive gene and had drink and drug problems myself. Again, another reason I cannot let myself hate him now, I cannot let the cycle repeat itself, I have children of my own now and will never let the same happen to them.
I hope your situation improves. try not to abandon him completly as if he has no support at all he will lean even further on the drink. As long as he knows you will be there for him when he is strong enough in himself to deal with his issues. He must want to help himself if he has been through rehab, that is something.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 05:21 PM
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My father was an alcoholic for nearly two decades, but he has now been sober for over 11 years and we have a great relationship today.
(I didn't really have much contact with him while he was an alcoholic)
He told me that he had to hit rock bottom before he could quit it. He had to wake up in the hospital after a two week bender and realize that he would either stop drinking or die.
He also told me that the only correct thing to do if someone close to you is an alcoholic is to cut contact with them until they straighten up. Simply tell them: "I cannot deal with you if keep drinking" and stick to it!
Abusive people can be great liars and promise they'll quit soon etc. to get another chance, but this is part of the abusive cycle.

If you find it exhaustive and damaging to deal with him, and you are unable to get him into treatment, then I believe that you have every right to cut contact. In fact it would most likely be the best thing for your brother in the long run as well.

Now you can take this advice or leave it but I thought I'd give it my two cents. Best of luck to you and your brother regardless!



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by capgrup
 


Don't blame yourself for the lack of action when you where young, it was not your responsibility to look out after your brother, in any case it would have been your dad's, one problem of modern family groups is that most of the time, the parents are to busy working to really look out for the kids behavior, thus children turn into teens, and turn into adults with other children in the same situations, children educating children, neither school nor media give out any kind of real advice or education...

As has been posted before, you can make the conscious choice of letting go, after you have offered the help and this has been denied, some people have to experiment the wide range of emotions in order to learn and mature the onthological self
Some have to hit rock bottom, others learn by example.






posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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I have often contemplated this very question that you have asked having dealt with alcoholics for most of my life.

My father was an alcoholic and it ran deeply in his side of the family. He lost two brothers to alcoholism, each literally drank themsleves to death. It is never easy for someone who has never experienced the addiction to understand how someone could consciously choose to destroy themselves and eveyone around them.

My ex girlfriend of six years was a beautiful, intelligent woman. She was educated, had a great sense of humor and she was very special to me. We were engaged for almost four years before I ended it and left town on a rail. She was the sweetest and most loving person I had ever met when sober. But when she got that evil vodka in her system she turned into a violent, raging, suicidal maniac. She made my life a living hell.

I went with her to AA meetings for two years, three nights a week like clock work, even though I hardly drank at all I wanted to be there and support her. The same thing would always happen, she would stay sober long enough to get a 30 day or even a 60 day chip, things would be good for a while and then one day just out of the blue she would show up at home drunk and in a violent fit. Life could be going great and our relationship could be doing so well and then BLAM...like hitting a brick wall. It all made me so furious and so frustrated, and it really took a severe mental toll on me psychologically.

It is never easy to try and help someone who doesnt seem to want to be helped. Anyone here who has ever tried to care for an alcoholic knows how nerve wracking and how endless of a chore it can be, they are like giant angry unreasonable children and you have to watch them constantly to make sure they dont hurt themselves or anyone else.

The final straw for me was when she had an argument with her father which propelled her into an alcoholic bender. She called me up on her cell phone blubbering drunk and screaming that she was about to exit the wrong off ramp and drive the wrong direction down the 405 freeway because she wanted to die. I had to listen on the other end of the phone, not knowing if she had died or had killed someone else.

A week later and in spite of her begging for me to forgive her (again) I packed my s*** and left and never looked back. Sometimes for your own mental benefit you have to admit when you can't help someone and just move on. The position you are in with your brother is a sad one and I do not envy you at all. I wish I had some advice for you, maybe a forced rehab or a prison is in order for him...may be the only way to save him.

I think to hate the person really does no good because I really honestly dont believe that some people can help what they do. Just be careful not to lose yourself in the process of trying to help another.

I wish you luck and believe me when I say I have been where you are.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by BlackOps719
 


The thing is man that sobriety is not the answer. See the term "dry drunk". My father is one. They stop drinking and still don't deal with the problems that lead them to drink. They still have the same problems. Only sober. Gotta deal with the personal issues first.

Seriously folks, even if you didn't have a family history with alcoholism, read that book I referenced on the last page.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 




I agree with the dry drunk analysis completely.


The issues that my ex had stemmed from her being abused by a neighbor when she was younger. She had never fully addressed the pain she felt as a result, and lord knows I was no expert on those types of things. I just tried to be there for her as much as I could.



[edit on 8/19/08 by BlackOps719]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 07:35 PM
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Something to remember:

Alcoholics all literally have the same personality. When it becomes a problem they all adopt the same little tactics to weasel around society, family and friends. There's money scheming, sticky fingers and lots of hiding behind the guise of being busy in its various forms. LIES are just about the only thing out of them and they talk talk talk talk talk about seemingly nothing important in order to prevent YOU from getting down to business with them.

These are the people that we love, or loved but only a shell of a human when not sober. Don't let them fool you more than once, and wow will they try EVERY time they have the chance. Don't leave anything of value around either as they ALL become the same embodiment of the ultimate thief, if they don't have the resources to support the lifestyle.

Yes, these are the people we love and/or loved but they are possessed by the same thing that has the same personality time after time. The only way to help a real alcoholic is leave him alone when they truly don't desire help stopping. The isolation will make them question "what have I done?" no matter how drunk the thought will eventually cross their mind. Don't pander to them, or shower them with love as the fake reality shows say as well as the shiny happy pamphlets, sponsored by the beverage companies, say. They ALWAYS love the bottle MORE than friends, family and so on while possessed. You have to either gather the signatures and commit them (none of this stupid intervention crap) or leave them the hell alone as they HAVE to want to change and fix it. You'll save yourself a LOT of trouble and heartache while letting the alchy sort out their own situation.

They have to want to stop and, believe me, hardly any do REALLY want to stop.

No its not wrong to despise alcoholics. They are the same greasy individual. ALL of them. Even people here on this forum that are former alcoholics will tell you that they can't dream of how they had so much money to drink all the time and can barely scrape 2 nickels together now that they are sober. The others were lucky and had lots of resources to fund their spiritual journeys.

No its not wrong to despise them. Someone with that little sense of responsibility is way beyond the scope of friendship at that time. Yes they recover and only then should they be given any love, friendship etc etc etc. Positive reinforcement and a reason to stay sober.

I have a couple friends that are alcoholics. I've tried to help them, intervened etc. I've had to shut them out as the drama is far too much when you try to help. One of them almost got me killed and laughs about it like it is a joke today. I call them once in a while and remind them of how the woman they lost misses them, how big their kids are getting and how many jobs are out there these days. I stick to that line of talk and hardly hear from them because of it. On a brighter note, I have some other friends that are recovered from the drink, from crack and other things that are more than productive. They are almost maniacal in their pursuit of success, happiness and outdoor activity. There's hope, but they HAVE TO want to stop and suddenly will if that is the case. Be there for when they do and be sure to tell them how much you did despise them when drunk, how much you love them NOW and how nice it is to see them on earth again. Beg them not to leave/drink again.

It is certainly NOT wrong to despise an alcoholic.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 07:43 PM
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You should watch the south park episode on this!

They put my point to rest!

Its all in your head!

Alcoholism is made up!

Here is a more articulate way of saying it....

www.addictioninfo.org...


The disease concept was a panacea for many failing medical institutions adding billions to the industry and leading to a prompt evolution of pop-psychology.


Furthermore....


Research has shown that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease, and stripping alcohol abusers of their choice, by applying the disease concept, is a threat to the health of the individual


Im not the only one who thinks labeling alcoholics with a disease is nothing more than a money making idea.

Tuberculosis.........Thats a disease!

Get real!

[edit on 18-8-2008 by IMAdamnALIEN]

[edit on 18-8-2008 by IMAdamnALIEN]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:00 PM
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Okay....

Ill tell you why I HATE booze-heads!

I once had an alcoholic for a roommate. He had his schooling paid for by his parents, car, ironed boxers, and an allowance.....at the age of 22!

He told his parents he was going to class and was getting good grades. But when grade reports came back to the parents, all F's. Not a single passing grade. Not only that but he had missed about 50% of his classes (prepaid mind you).

No.... He was too busy drinking all night and having parties inside my house at 4am! Too busy having people pee in the refrigerator, in my closet, not to mention the random people having sex on my couch! All the while, innocent me, trying to get some shut-eye for work in a few hours!

I HATE alcoholics......I have absolutely no respect for any of them!

Bunch of sorry, no good, retarded bunch of apes!

Period



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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I've seen that SP episode, Bloody Mary, episode 9 - 14, it makes a point indeed.

but as usual, there is more to it, the question remains, how does one explain to the addict that its current situation is his own choice?
how do we make him see that his wllpower alone is capable of tremendous feats?

As has been wisely said, dealing with the existing problems is a must, and a priority, alcoholism and many addictions are the result of the inability to cope with the wight of emotional choices.

Its hard and I don't believe there exists a definite solution to be had, some say prevention is the answer, but being there to prevent is not always possible, i believe that many psychological treatments just patch up the automaton, and send it back to the system, without really having treated the real root of the problem.
The difficulty lies in finding that said root...



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:08 PM
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Met a beggar, he asked for cash, I was drunk, so I told him I'd give him cash if he chatted with me about why he was on the streets. He agreed, and spoke to me for a few minutes for 50p, though not a bad hourly rate. He was ex-army, had been traumatised, found himself on the street and booze had helped to deal with it. I decided to ask him, instead of the usual where can you get shelter blah blah, no I asked him if he could do anything he wanted, something to do that he enjoyed to earn his money, like his hobby from his money. He thought for a while, and said he was too numb to know and apologised to ME. He needed psychotherapy to get him in touch with his emotions and stable again as do so many on our streets, some even need psychiatric care. I don't think that accounts for all alcoholics, but it makes me baulk at the thought of despising them. They are drinking to suppress something.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:09 PM
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In answer to the question inherent in the title of the OP:

We despise in other people that which we despise in our selves.

We like in other people that which we like about our selves.

------------

Now, if only I could remember that before I open my big mouth sometimes.

Duncan



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by nexusmagazine
In answer to the question inherent in the title of the OP:

We despise in other people that which we despise in our selves.

We like in other people that which we like about our selves.

------------

Now, if only I could remember that before I open my big mouth sometimes.

Duncan



We don't always despise, nor have to despise in others what we despise in ourselves, we need the appropriate distance from it. Out of sight, out of mind.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by milabb.
reply to post by IMAdamnALIEN
 


alcoholism IS a disease !


The words alcohol and disease don't belong in the same sentence. That's like saying smoking cigarettes or drinking coffee every day is a disease. If you drink a can of cola every day, are you diseased ?

Nicotine, caffeine and alcohol are nothing more than bad habits that can be stopped with will power.

Just like getting a family member to stop smoking, it takes a kind gentle touch. Trying to force the issue, will make matters worse.

Try to get alcoholics to drink more water between beers or mixed drinks. After a while, they may drink more water than beer. I know I did. Now I only have a beer or two a week, instead of twelve a night.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by capgrup
 


You have no obligation to help prevent any self destructive behavior. While any help you provide is great, in the end, this person is capable of deciding for himself, that is easy to forget. If you decide to no longer help that does not mean you despise him but that you have your own personal business to attend to and rather put your energy there.

Remember to be practical, if you see that your help is making a difference you have a reason to stick with it, but if you know deep in your heart that you cannot make a difference, then you are, quite frankly, wasting energy that you may better invest in your own more immediate family and personal matters.

The best of luck with whatever you decide, and hope this person can find a solution to his problem.

-arr



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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I know it has been stated already, but I want to second the suggestion that you check out AlAnon, a support group for those affected by people with an alcohol problem.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by QBSneak000
 


Turning your back on a brother with cancer is far different than turning your back on a brother that promotes the disease through irresponsible actions.

Yes, alcoholism is genetically passed on - most of the time...but putting the two in the same category is just giving the brother another excuse to open a cold one; you are giving him entitlement to the label of victim.

So his dad was an alchy...so are a million other dads. But the majority of kids I know that had drunk parents, seemed to curtail their own habit in hopes of not going down that path and having to face the same ridicule, both from the family and public; so let's not give him an out that easily.

Ditch the drunk...maybe if the OP can muster everyone together some tough love can happen and possibly make a difference.

Look, I drink quite a bit myself. Just about every night I have a cold one, or three - sometimes more on the weekend. But I never allow it to interfere with my relationship with my wife, friends and co-workers. And this is not to say being an alchy in control is any better, but moderation in anything is necessary. I smoke dank weed as well, but I never let it affect my financial situation nor my sex drive...

Point is, we all have thresholds for everything...if he hasn't figured it out, and the family can't support him in a way that gets him off the bottle, then tough love...have his dad beat his a$$ or have everyone tell him to go to hell.

If that does not pull him out of this, then a family member needs to take out an insurance policy on his drunk a$$ and cash out when the Liver goes...the OP seems like they actually care so I know this is hard - but what's harder, putting up with his disease or visiting his grave once a year...?

Take the memories and the policy...



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 09:02 PM
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No body here can answer this question. Don't walk in his shoes. You on the other hand are a ................................................can't type this part. It's a family program.





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