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Laser Blinds Passenger Jet Pilot

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posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 12:47 PM
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yeah, as muzzleflash implied: "what the hell?"

wouldn't the guy have to be above the plane to shine it in the cockpit?

and where the hell did he get a laser that powerful anyway!?




posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 01:03 PM
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What a load of #, @ 532nm you would need a 200mW LASER to effectively temporarily blind a pilot from that distance, and the pilot would need to be directly looking into it. Still he or she would only be blind for 2 seconds max.

That dudes DPSS hand held LASER's would have been like 10mW. The jack's are over exaggerating this big time.
I know this because I sell LASER show systems and know what its like looking into various power levels and colours of LASER's.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Nikolas]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
so no one is even skeptical of this wild bs? lol...im sorry but i can believe in this story unless im shown some kind of proof

#1 ) how the hell could someone accurately point a 1cm wide laser dot accurately at a Moving jet? and hit the cockpit? much less the pilot? WITH HIS BARE HANDS???



hard to say if he just got lucky or was using some kind of scope mount. it's not as difficult as you make it out to be, no need for continuous tracking, just graze him that will blind the pilot temporarily.

why don't airlines consider protective glasses for landing approaches? the threat seems genuine after all the stories i've heard and read and a plane crash would be very unnecessary when you consider that military solutions most certainly exist already.


Originally posted by Nikolas
What a load of #, @ 532nm you would need a 200mW LASER to effectively temporarily blind a pilot from that distance, and the pilot would need to be directly looking into it. Still he or she would only be blind for 2 seconds max.

That dudes DPSS hand held LASER's would have been like 10mW. The jack's are over exaggerating this big time.
I know this because I sell LASER show systems and know what its like looking into various power levels and colours of LASER's.


you don't know that, a knowledgeable person could easily rip apart some commercial laser product and put it into a flashlight's case. 500mW or even 350. with a scope, taking that shot would be a piece of cake, wouldn't it? without one, lasering 100 planes and getting 'lucky' once isn't that outlandish either, is it?


Originally posted by Peepers

Don't forget, big jets come in with the nose up


if you can see the runway's end from the cockpit, which the pilot most certainly can, one can laser him into the eye from beyond the runway, period.

pilots looking at instruments only? wtf, ILS is for bad weather, otherwise manufacturers could delete the windows.

[edit on 2008.8.19 by Long Lance]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by dodgygeeza
 


Don't judge based upon others actions. The world has enough of that already. Given the circumstances, this lad is a bad apple, but not all teens are out raise hell. The world is a different place than it was even 20 years ago. There is over 6 billion people in the world and each one of these kids wants to be something special, something meaningful.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by Long Lanceyou don't know that, a knowledgeable person could easily rip apart some commercial laser product and put it into a flashlight's case. 500mW or even 350. with a scope,


LOL obviously you didn't read my entire post... I own a business that specialises in LASER show systems! I know what I am talking about?!
I know that a hand-held LASER pointer cannot blind a pilot to the point where he cannot fly. Like I also said, the pilot would need to be looking at it! Your not blinded when walking around under the sun, why? Because your not looking at it! Der?

And maybe the kid pulled apart a commercial laser, mounted an infra-red zenatron-opto-kinetic-bioeletronic-shabangabang target aquasition device link up with AWACS, and then hacked into the mainframe!... You think too much.

I've got a feeling you are one of thoughs ATS members that would insist on a cover up conspiracy if someone left a light on in a city apartment. LOL!


I haven't read all the posts made by people, though from what I have read no body has had any experience with LASER's.
Quality LASER show systems in clubs are MINIMAL 100mW, and they are placed 3 meters away from the crowd. How many people dancing have you seen going "ahh ahh I can't see the hot girl in front of me, turn it off". LOL actually, I don't think most people on this forum go out much so probably wouldn't know.


[edit on 19-8-2008 by Nikolas]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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The Cleveland police chopper pilot was wearing infrared goggles. That is why he wasn't blinded. He said he would have gone down if that hadn't been so.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Dan Tanna

The stick man drawing is forgetting the spread of the laser, forgetting the reflection around and inside the aircraft,


if the laser spreads, then it would definatly lose its strength my order of magnitude would it not?

also, if this is true, how did the co-pilot not get blinded also?? i mean your telling me that this laser has a big "spread" so how could it possibly hit 2 of the eyeballs on pilot 1, and yet pilot 2 was not affected at all?

seriously , things are not adding up here


also, how did the pilot of the police chopper not get blinded?
hmmm

[edit on 19-8-2008 by muzzleflash]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 01:54 PM
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Lance a lot you be dreaming brother.

Lets use some critical thinking here. Can you see a planes cockpit from one end of the runway to the other. Ya know, looking down the runway from the other end with a flight approaching you. I know I can't, and for an approaching jet to be leveled for a laser shot directly into the face of the pilot is pretty far off since the nose is up when coming in and the pilots indeed are looking at there lcd/digital/analog displays for airspeed, aileron position, flap position, wind speed, descent and all the rest of the critical systems.

What, you think flying a commercial job is a joy ride with the pilots looking out the windows for fun when landing.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 02:50 PM
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I'm with Nikolas on this one. I worked in the music business and did stage shows with lasers myself. There's no way he was intending to blind someone and wreck that plane. It's just overeaction by the police and it's getting pretty predictable that the media will blow it out of proportion.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by Peepers

Amazing how stories like this hype people. Another example of fear mongering going on in our over stressed society. I agree with you. This kid's error was pointing a hand held laser at a police helicopter at night. Current expensive hand held lasers will not blind a pilot at any altitude. Along with the widening and diluting of the beam, the speed of a jet airliner makes a laser bean difficult to place in a pilots eyes. Lastly, a jet airliner on approach is more in the hands of computers than the pilot...making a blinding crash more fiction than fact. You are right....the 19 year old was trying to seen what his laser would do..when the police helicopter saw him. He is stupid but not a crazy killer of airline passengers.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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There is a well informed discussion of the topic at airliner.net.

The other things to remember are that an aircraft on approach will (as I understand it) actually be in level or slightly nose down attitude. Lift in enhanced at low speed by deploying the flaps which if anything increase the forward pitching of the nose. The aircraft lifts its nose only at the final moments - flaring as I recall - which sort of drops it out of the air onto the main wheels. Only delta wing aircraft - such as concorde and vulcan - have to approach with a high nose because its harder to stall the wing out of flight.

The aircraft in this incident is not a huge jet liner. Its a short haul aircraft. Thus about 50 passengers. The airport is also a small(-ish) local airport so its quite feasible to have the police helicopter operate around it especially as its likely that el-clavo (the chav) will also target more aircraft if he gets away with it. Its not like Heathrow or JFK with planes queued every 90 seconds...!

Even if the pilot was only struck for the crucial/safe 0.25 seconds and blink reflex (or poor aim) protected him he would have been left with bad afterimages and I doubt he would have been well suited to landing the aircraft. Similarly if the copilot had been complacent things could have been rather worse, or if the pilot had snatched the controls.

To the guy with the entertainment lasers - as I unstood it those devices (light effects) are required to fitted with a diffuser to avoid eye risk which would be silly on a laser pointer which demands a narrow beam. There is good detail on laser grades and risks in one of the linked posts.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 03:02 PM
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I haven't read most of this thread.

But excuse me!? did this guy have a sniper rifle scope or something? How can anyone aim a laser into someone EYE on a moving object from really far away? It's almost impossible.



[edit on 19-8-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 03:08 PM
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Corrections to another poster's comment and
more information on Laser Safety:

Original Poster Comment:

"The luxor pyramid in vegas has a co2 laser beam so powerfull you can see it from the california state line and pilots see it from even (400 miles) farther. I heard they have to shut the beam down for over head flight reasons. I can't recall where I read this, but even the shuttle/space station can see the luxor beam in space."


---
Luxor DOES NOT use lasers....it uses Xenon lamps
which are NOT monochromatic in nature like a laser!

The Luxor pyramid uses 39 Xenon lamps of 7 kilowatts each.
The hourly cost, including lamps, electricity, and repairs, is US$51.
The total light output is rated at 41.5 gigacandela, or 30.2 billion lumens.
(Wikipedia)

en.wikipedia.org...

IT DOES NOT USE LASERS which would interfere with air base operations
at the nearby Nellis Airforce base and Area 51....

----

Regarding laser safety, even a common laser pointer has enough
power go a vast distance (up to 5 km) without excessive
"Beam Spread" caused by the distortions in the atmosphere
and COULD in fact blind a pilot long enough to cause confusion
and hesitancy in flight control operations especially on approach.

It is ALSO POSSIBLE on a nose up approach to STILL have laser light
enter the cockpit due to turbulence that pitches the plane about allowing
the beam to enter the cockpit. And the beam does NOT actually have
to directly enter the pilot's eyes to cause damage...the beam can be
reflected off an interior surface such as a piece of shiny metal or white
plastic clipboard or other optically reflective material.

Since lasers are monochromatic light emitting at a single frequency,
diffuse scattering will not occur but rather the beam can bounce
around the reflective surfaces in the cockpit until it actually DOES
enter the eyes. Since many CHEAP imported laser pointers
(i.e. from China) are in fact HIGHER-POWERED than their listed ratings,
they ACTUALLY CAN PERMANENTLY burn the retina.

See References:

Classes of Lasers:
electron9.phys.utk.edu...


Light-show lasers permanently burn ravers' eyes at Moscow party:
www.nationalpost.com...


Laser Pointer Safety:
www.senioryears.com...


LASER CUTTERS: NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A LASER:
www.industrial-lasers.com...

Hope this clears up some laser safety issues.

thx

StargateSG7



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Nikolas
I own a business that specialises in LASER show systems! I know what I am talking about?!..

I know that a hand-held LASER pointer cannot blind a pilot to the point where he cannot fly.

Like I also said, the pilot would need to be looking at it! Your not blinded when walking around under the sun, why? Because your not looking at it! Der?


Wow!! Where to start..??


First off.. you don't need to be a laser programmer/engineer..(which I was.. industrial..not toys) to SELL them.

Furthermore I would suggest..OR NOT!!) next time you set one up one stage to disable the scanner motor and see what kind of effect a static beam would have on your eyes.

Next..The pilot was flying at night therefore his pupils would be dilated and susceptible to blinding/loss of nightsight..NOT exactly comparable to walking around in daylight ..whether looking at the sun or not.
Ever been driving and looked at oncoming traffic's headlights and been blinded for a few seconds?

Next I'm guessing you have never attempted to fly a plane..
Take offs and landings are the most concentration intensive and DANGEROUS times in the entire flight..A distraction is EASILY fatal.

It's a reflective instinct to look when you see a flash out of the corner of your eye..Warning lights maybe!!..
It would be almost certain that the pilot's eyes would be drawn to an outside light..The co-pilot is primarily concerned with assisting with the instrumentation..his wouldn't probably.

So before coming to the VERY misguided conclusion that people here "don't go out"..bear in mind that you may well end up very embarrassed by your smugness in your..erm.. 'speciality knowledge'.



[edit on 19-8-2008 by AGENT_T]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:35 PM
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To me it's clear that most have never had any experience with a high powered hand held DPSS laser setup before so I'll chuck up some info about them.

They'll spit out between 5mW and 500mW typically and more in some cases. They range in size from a few centimeters to a 500mW hand cannon the size of a mag light.
The 100mW I had was calculated to cause retinal damage up to around 300m. Over that you get flash blindness for a varying amount of time, from a few km away into a cockpit the beam would still be collimated enough and bright enough to cause serious temporary night vision issues - the pilot would be seeing a big green blob in his vision. Not to mention he'd be pissed off because without his eyes he cannot do much and if he were to loose them he'd loose his job.

Cheaper the laser the worse the collimation. Collimation refers to how focused the light is into a straight beam as such. If the beam is not collimated/straight (ie poorly diverging) then it will loose power over distance more quickly than a properly collimated beam. You always loose power over distance due to air molecules anyway, but collimation makes a big difference. You can also cut through materials much easier with a properly focused/collimated beam.

Serious lasers need serious respect.. all it takes is one small, close reflection from a pane of glass, no laser goggles and you have no eyesight.

Idiots like this guy are the ones that will get these things banned when they are no different to guns, knives, scissors, fireworks and petrol in the way they all have legitimate uses, yet can be so bad in the wrong hands! I hope he has an example made of him.

edit: and to mr laser show - I am training to be a commercial pilot and I can tell you this.. that laser would cause some serious issues on final approach at night, as you know sunglasses don't do jack to stop 530nm light.
Taken from wiki (yeah I know but same thing we were taught in flight school..) "Exposed to white light, the pigment immediately bleaches, and it takes about 30 minutes to regenerate fully, but most of the adaptation occurs within the first five or ten minutes in the dark."

en.wikipedia.org...

So both pilots get lased at night and might not be able to see for 1-10 minutes , longer if it's a grunter hand cannon. Good luck landing a plane when you can't see and not on autoland in a big fancy commercial jet.

reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Muzzleflash, due to divergence the beam will be more than a few centimeters again depending on collimation and air conditions. If the plane is on final approach and coming towards you with very little lateral movement then it's easy to hit, obviously as it gets close you cannot target the cockpit due to it being between the plane body and you. It's easy to aim and hit things due to there being a damn big green beam pointing to where your laser is going


[edit on 19/8/08 by GhostR1der]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
so no one is even skeptical of this wild bs? lol...im sorry but i can believe in this story unless im shown some kind of proof

#1 ) how the hell could someone accurately point a 1cm wide laser dot accurately at a Moving jet? and hit the cockpit? much less the pilot? WITH HIS BARE HANDS???

You would need a radar system to track it for you and line it up with the correct trajectory!

thats like throwing a needle 4 miles and hitting another needle, Impossible!

i am utterly amazed that not one of you even thought this out for even a second! cmon guys think about it for a few minutes!

if you could aim a laser pointer and not only paint a moving aircraft (prolly going more than 300mph / 450kmph --- then why would anyone need radar to line up their AAA guns ???

why couldnt the iraqi's in the iraq invasion knock down all the US bombers????

i mean come on guys, seriously, this is impossible unless u use sophisticated radar tracking - coupled with a sophisticated device to move the laser in coordination with the radar

and this was a kid no less...talk about magical! he must have prayed to God and God pointed that laser for him...

sheesh....the crap people believe without even thinking these days...

im ashamed with all of you lol

i totally agree. that makes too much sense.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by StargateSG7
 


Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding...............

You won, and your prize is a star!

At 42.3 billion candlepower, the Luxor Sky Beam is the strongest beam of light in the world. Using computer designed, curved mirrors to collect the light from 39 Xenon lamps and focus them into one intense, narrow beam, engineers say that an astronaut could read a newspaper by Luxor’s Sky Beam from ten miles into space. On a clear night, the Sky Beam is visible up to 250 miles away to an airplane



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by dodgygeeza
 


lol and you thought that 19 year old is bad. We had that done to us by a truck with 2 16 year olds we stopped in the middle of the road. they sped past us... I only hope they got a ticket somewhere they were scared... as they should be.

The youth of today scare me. Im currently 21 and people my age ask me all the time why im so serious... why do i do things so differently... why dont I drink... Its because of trash like that is why... the youth of todays earth is very frightening. The worst part is technology is being released to a public who misuses it and abuses it. What if there werent a copilot... you would have seen 42 dead on the new... and a missing uncle perhaps... all for fun.. no worries. Just a few seconds of playing with a red dot... got tired of playing with the cat...



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by Nikolas
 


2 Seconds max? Can I see your license in Laser technology or could you videotape it for us?

Dislcaimer: If you go blind for any reason you nor anyone related to you or any entity should blame RjMelter or other Alias because of RETARDEDNESS.

Why do you think lasers have warnings on them and can be seen so far. Its an advanced flashlight that didn't turn out so well but its a d@mn good aiming device.

P.S. It was at night... as another poster said. The whole moral delimma in my opinion is you feel bad for something you did to someone with a laser... its ok.. You learned from it. Just please dont go trying to hurt other people... My motto is do unto yourself before you do to others... BUT at all costs life must continue


^^^^^

I fear for the world. My generation has no business on this planet. I dont think we are even human anymore.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 12:10 AM
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I don't know about you guys.. But I use a laser pointer for astronomy that my wife bought me for Father's day.. The one I use is called the "Orion Skyline Deluxe" and it has a brilliant green laser. Unlike any I have seen before.

I WOULD NOT want to get beamed in the eye with something like this..
This one has a class 3R laser

en.wikipedia.org...

From the link above..

[edit] Class 3R

A Class 3R laser is considered safe if handled carefully, with restricted beam viewing. With a class 3R laser, the MPE can be exceeded, but with a low risk of injury. Visible continuous lasers in Class 3R are limited to 5 mW. For other wavelengths and for pulsed lasers, other limits apply


But anyone can buy these lasers and if the kids get a hold of it, of coarse they're gonna want to sway it around in the sky with no regard for air traffic whatsoever.

-ChriS



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 01:38 AM
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Like I also said, the pilot would need to be looking at it! Your not blinded when walking around under the sun, why? Because your not looking at it! Der?

Aeroméxico Flight 498. That's why.



Pilots are ALWAYS looking out the window, gaining spacial awareness, checking for traffic... etc... Why do you think they put windows in cockpits for? #s and giggles? And let me tell you, if some yahoo dared shine a laser in my eyes when I'm flying, I'm going to be damn PISSED, because your vision is clouded by a big BLUE-GREEN DOT & your night vision is screwed!, your spacial awareness is OUT & can not see other air traffic - that is INDEED a danger to air safety. Not to mention it's attacking people doing there jobs. I'd love to see the same jerk walk up to people in the streets doing there jobs and shine the last in there eyes. Have you ever been hit with a 5mw laser? it hurts in daylight... & today you can get lasers capable of lighting things on FIRE. Imagine it at night.

Hell, if I found out the idiot got caught afterwards then I'd sue him for malicious assault. Throw the book at him... literally.


I haven't read most of this thread.

But excuse me!? did this guy have a sniper rifle scope or something? How can anyone aim a laser into someone EYE on a moving object from really far away? It's almost impossible.

Have you ever used a laser? If you want to 'paint' a target that's far a way, you jimmy the laser around so you literally paint the target all over. You don't need to aim for the eyes... even a laser passing over your eyes for half a second hurts and can cause a big blue-green dot to appear right in the middle of your vision.


There's no way he was intending to blind someone and wreck that plane.

It doesn't matter - he was shining lasers at aircraft. It puts peoples lives in danger & is assault. And if he didn't know, then he'd a grade A SMACKTARD who should have the book thrown at him.


. Can you see a planes cockpit from one end of the runway to the other. Ya know, looking down the runway from the other end with a flight approaching you. I know I can't,

I know I can,,, and I know it's possible 'cause it happens pretty much everyday in Australia & all over the world. Sadly this was one of the few cases where the moron got caught. I've spoken to a great deal of pilots who've had lasers shine at them. They share my view. Ask at airlinepilot central or pprune.


I know that a hand-held LASER pointer cannot blind a pilot to the point where he cannot fly.

Do you also fly aircraft?


Don't forget, big jets come in with the nose up

So what? Planes approach at typically 2-4 degrees nose up, yet over the MCP you can see about 10 - 15 degrees own. If you look to the windows to the side you can see 70 degrees DOWN.

[edit on 20/8/2008 by C0bzz]



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