If you think that God is omnipotent, then do not deny evil from it!

Originally posted by Geemor

hmm, but without experience there cannot be knowledge? so you have to experience evil before having knowledge about it or how do you consider you'll gain knowledge a priori in this, or any matter?

Ive never experienced being skinned alive and don't know of anyone who has, yet I have knowledge that it is something I want to avoid.

We don't have to experience evil things in order to appreciate the good.

I have never experienced the loss of a parent or a child to death. But I have knowledge that if happens it will be a painful experience.


[edit on 26-8-2008 by Sparky63]

^ Please note that there are different types of experiences. In all...we have ALL experienced stuff. Some people just experienced in different ways. Reading is an experience...so too is being there.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by v01i0
I don't attribute evil to Satan because Satan is merely one part of God in my opinion.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So, by your own reasoning any evil I commit shouldn't be attributed to me since I too am a creation of God.

Even if you say that you are not placing words into my mouth, you have at least mistaken my words, or you are assuming something which I don't see. You must forgive me for I am not native english speaker, and I have little problems of understanding what means attributing property to some entity. However, allow me to explain myself:

Of course you are responsible your actions, whether good or bad. Even if everything is creation of God, you still have the freedom of choice to act according it's will or against it.

reply to post by NinguLilium

Originally posted by NinguLilium
Sorry, that was a bit of a rant.

No need to apologize. I liked your post

Originally posted by Sparky63

Originally posted by Geemor

hmm, but without experience there cannot be knowledge? so you have to experience evil before having knowledge about it or how do you consider you'll gain knowledge a priori in this, or any matter?

Ive never experienced being skinned alive and don't know of anyone who has, yet I have knowledge that it is something I want to avoid.

Dear Sparky, forgive me answering your post even not directly asked: Here we are talking about very different kind of knowledge and experience. You have to understand that you need to know what 'skinning' means, before you can decide whether or not you want to be skinned. I guess this was the meaning that poster right after yours tried to explain?

So basically, you need to have a posteriori experiences before understaning something. There are however, cases where induction can lead into valid hypothesis; mathematics being just one example.

May everyone have a nice day,

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Evil is a strong word. God does rebuke us and He has lessons for us to learn, much in the same respect that our earthly fathers teach us or sometimes even let us learn for ourselves, the hard way. My dad dealt out some discipline, trying to keep four kids on the straight and narrow but I never thought of him as evil. Consider how much harder job God has, with a lot more than four children to raise.

reply to post by v01i0

Of course you are responsible your actions, whether good or bad. Even if everything is creation of God, you still have the freedom of choice to act according it's will or against it.

So, I'm trying to understand you. All humans are responsible for their actions becasue God created them with the ability to choose. But Satan isn't responsible for evil even though God created him too?

reply to post by Bombeni

Originally posted by Bombeni

Evil is a strong word. [Snipped by v01i0] My dad dealt out some discipline, [Snipped again by v01i0] but I never thought of him as evil.

I tried to explain earlier how I see 'evil', I'll quote it up again:

Originally posted by v01i0
I am getting frustrated because the main problem with the people here posting is that they fail to see what I mean: I don't mean that God is universally evil. But God may appear evil from our perspective, and we cannot deny that from him.

What comes to me, my biological dad held discipline too. And everytime I couldn't not understand why the punishment came for, I thought my dad to be 'evil' in a sense. Of course I later realized that he was just being reasonable and I was being an idiot. But my first reaction right after the punishment was something related to evil. And by the title of this thread, I meant a lot the same.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So, I'm trying to understand you. All humans are responsible for their actions becasue God created them with the ability to choose. But Satan isn't responsible for evil even though God created him too?

Thank you for your attempt of understanding me, altho I need no understanding. You can outright trash my view as carbage if it suits you

Anyway, since you asked I feel obligated to answer, but it is not perhaps something that satisfies you: I don't see Satan in the way that you do; that is him being representative of all evil and malicous in the world. To me, there is no such thing as biblical Satan, the fallen archangel. To me, Satan is abstract other side of the God. We like to attribute the evil to Satan because we don't want to see that our grand God can be evil from our perspective; that we are not his favourite children, therefore the crown of his creation. Of course God is not evil from it's own perspective for it is perfect.

My God is Good and Evil, Light and Dark, everlasting, the first law and never ending. And this contains all and everything. Even the most cold blood killer is part of God, for he is it's creation. My God is whole multiverse and everything in it and even it's instances, like the 'evil', which is the matter at hand.

I hope this clarifies my standpoint. Feel free to agree or argue, for this is a house of learning

All the best,

-v

[edit on 27-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply to post by v01i0
Why would we not be his "favorite creation"?

Can you name another creation by God that was created in His "image"?

You have actually pointed out why Satan hates us so much, because we are God's favorite creation.

"Let Us make man in Our image"

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by v01i0

 

Why would we not be his "favorite creation"?

Can you name another creation by God that was created in His "image"?

You have actually pointed out why Satan hates us so much, because we are God's favorite creation.

"Let Us make man in Our image"

I know that is what bible says, but as for any manmade descriptions of Gods attributes and values, I don't regard it as absolute truth.

Therefore you might disagree with my opinion, that even a piece of rock was made as God's "image". Basically I state this in my previous posts, and I emphasized it again in my last post. Way I see it, God doesn't favour anything above another of it's creations. They are equal to it.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Your first reaction was akin to evil, but later you realized it was for your own good. This is how I see God, that some of the things we go through are lessons to be learned, not perpetrated by God, but allowed. I know better than I know my own name that God is good and merciful. As I said evil is a strong word and not one to be associated with God. The only evil comes from Satan and though God created all, He also gave us free will which makes Him an awesome God imo; He doesn't want forced worship, He wants only those who worship and love Him of their own free will.

reply to post by v01i0
Well, on that point we have to disagree.

reply to post by Bombeni


I respect your opinion about what you said about evil coming from Satan. Many others here have said the same and it's just fine by me. I can only make the remark (and I have made) that for me it appears to be illogical to deny evil from the God because it has created everything. And before anyone proceeds to make any remarks about my remark, please read the already existing remarks above

Anyhow, I feel like this issue from these viewpoints is already dead, I'll refrain from further comments on the issues that has already been dealt with. If new aspects should rise, I'll be happy to comment.

Be well,

-v

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Why would we not be his "favorite creation"?

Since you posted such a question, and while surfing through the biblical stuff, and because you seem to put decent emphasis on what have been said in there, I'll quote "the Ecclesiastes" Book 3:

16. Moreover I saw under the sun, in the place of justice, that wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, that wickedness was there. 17. I said in my heart, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work." 18. I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals. 19. For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity. 20. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21. Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?" 22. Therefore I saw that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his works; for that is his portion: for who can bring him to see what will be after him?

But please, before remarking about bible versions and it's value as a "undepatable proof", remember that I put no such value on it. It can be interpret almost as one likes. But this bit here nicely fits into my thoughts. As I said above, I hold no man as a special for God.

Sincerely,

-v

That's saying we all die. We both man and animal turn to dust, in that respect we are equal. Stop cherrypicking verses.

Genesis 2:19-20

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the
field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam
to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called
every living creature, that was the name thereof.
And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air,
and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not
found an help meet for him."

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I beg your pardon, but you are in no position to tell me what to do, besides you just did exactly what you are saying I am doing

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's saying we all die. We both man and animal turn to dust, in that respect we are equal. Stop cherrypicking verses.

Besides, it clearly states something else in that underlined part than we are just going to die, if you read carefully.

The whole Genesis is methaphorical description (as is exodus) of birth of a soul, not an literal description of creation of earth, human and creatures. This of course isn't merely my opinion, but I've encountered it in thinking of highly respected thinkers of past and present, besides due to my own thinking I believe it to be so. But as always, you can have your opinion and I can have mine. I guess to you, the text in bible is black on white, nothing else.

Respectfully,

-v

[edit on 4-9-2008 by v01i0]

With that we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Why do some people try to "help me" understand that Christianity is for losers/morons/idiots: Why is it important to you to point out a few aspects of the Bible in which you've had this lightbulb go off thinking that you've finally hit on the one thing that will get the minds of "loser Christians" back on track? Why do you care? Seriously, do you think that if you continue to tell me that Jesus lied about this or that and certain things could not have happened that I am going to turn my heart away from the true God and ask you to tell me more? I'm trying to get a frame-of-reference for it. There's people who call psychic hot lines believing they will find love, money or happiness, which charge big fees to their phone bill, but until they start asking me to pay those bills, it's no sweat off of my back.

We get the same tired posts day after day about how this or that could not have possibly happened. Yeah yeah, we hear you --- You don't believe. Why is it important to you that I not believe either?

If your intent is truly to "help" then why don't you concentrate on those who see "shadow people" crawling all over the place, the moon changing colors/shape, people being followed by blonde-haired half human/half aliens, etc? Let's get our priorities straight.

reply to post by Bombeni


Wait, are you saying that I don't believe? You haven't then read single post of mine. Otherwise your quostioning is very valid and I'll give you a reply:

I don't believe in the way that you do. No, the christianity what those various churches like to teach us are wrong and misguiding (IMO of course). They are stealing from god, they are breaking the commandment "thou shalt not steal" in it's spiritual meaning; they are stealing from god, by misguiding people to believe something that isn't true. That a worst kind of sin. If they wouldn't offer their religion in such a forcefull manner (by converting), by taking people in as child by babtizing, when they haven't yet developed will of their own.

Look, I just want to bring out my views in order to repair the damage that has been done by some thieves. They have entered your house and done lot of damage. One has to bear in mind, that reading is volitional, no one is forcing you to read or adapt this! It seems to me that you are now mentally in very dangerous situation where you are not sure of your own beliefs. You are hence screaming: "shut up, I don't want to hear!". Well, you don't have to, just go somewhere else and do not read this stuff.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Why do you care? Seriously, do you think that if you continue to tell me that Jesus lied about this or that...

I care because I see you as me, as part of god just like me. I do not think that christians are idiots, merely misguided by church (the evil institution that should be abolished). I have nowhere said that Jesus lied. Merely by disagreeing on orthodox doesen't mean I hold J. as a liar. No way! I respect the teachings of his.

Originally posted by Bombeni
If your intent is truly to "help" then why don't you concentrate on those who see "shadow people" crawling all over the place, the moon changing colors/shape, people being followed by blonde-haired half human/half aliens, etc? Let's get our priorities straight.

Do you really know that I haven't?

Respectfully,

-v

reply to post by v01i0


I wasn't gearing my entire post to you, but to people in general who come up with strange ideoligies regarding the Bible and God. Sorry but I think I speak for many others when I say that a thread devoted to proving that God is evil or has an evil side just adds to the mishmash. God cannot look at evil, He couldn't even be with Christ when He was crucified and forced to bear the sins of the world; God had to turn away from it (remember "My God, why has Thou forsaken me?") I think you are just looking too hard. Jesus said "Come unto Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)

Sorry, maybe I do too much speed reading and missed the fact that you are a Christian. I will reread your posts.

[edit on 5-9-2008 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Bombeni

Originally posted by Bombeni
Sorry, maybe I do too much speed reading and missed the fact that you are a Christian. I will reread your posts.

It's allright, no worries.

I specifically advice you to take a look in this specific post to understand my standpoint on this evil vs. good question, I think it is my best attempt to explain my opinions (yes, I know the title of this thread is bit misleading.. But what can I do because I cannot edit it?): Here. You may notice that it includes a reply to you, but the explanation is on the part where I respond to XIDIXIDIX. Those bold and underlined bits are the most important ones.

Be well,

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Well I don't know what to say anymore. In the info you sent me from your prior posts you highlighted this:

"I am getting frustrated because the main problem with the people here posting is that they fail to see what I mean: I don't mean that God is universally evil. But God may appear evil from our perspective, and we cannot deny that from him. Yeah, maybe the topic of this thread is bit confusing in this context, but we have to do with it because I cannot alter it anymore."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So God "appears" evil to you, yes I know you don't mean universally.

I guess that's where we differ, and I don't think a whole lotta Christians are going to get on the bandwagon with you here. To me, there is a difference in a God who created all, knows every hair on my head, etc. etc. etc. throwing his weight around from time to time and "appearing as evil" --- on the other hand I will concede that I do FEAR God, but only in the same way I feared disappointing or disobeying my earthly father. That's about all I can add to this, I may still not have a grasp on what you are saying but I tried to be involved. The Kingdom of God is just not a complicated thing for me. I had a bumper sticker, before an illegal mexican totaled my car and took off running (another thread, another day), that said "God said it and I believe it" --- sorry but it's just that easy for me. I guess it's that "Peace that surpasses all understanding" thing.

[edit on 5-9-2008 by Bombeni]