If you think that God is omnipotent, then do not deny evil from it!

Originally posted by sdrawkcabII
For the people that DO use the Bible as their source and hope...I say to you this;
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

If that doesn't say it, I don't know what will. I do not believe in the Christian God however, if he were real, he would be a man. There is too much contradiction, too much manlike qualities about that God.

NASB:
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.


NIV says:
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

ESV:
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.


New KJV:
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’

Originally posted by v01i0
Hello once again,

I hate to see how people and religious groups strip their gods from omnipotency by denying evil from the God. It is like stealing 50% of God's properties if he cannot be evil.

What comes to the christianity, many people seem to forget that God as also evil; God created Satan, and when Moses performed miracles in Egypt, many people tend to forget that it was God whom hardened Pharaoh's heart not to let Hebrews leave the slavery.

So then, people still keep asking why does God allow such evil in world? Answer of course is that God is evil (as well as good). Those who deny evil from God are denying God.

So all the religious sects and cults that are promoting the concept of God being only good, are in fact liars and denying the God's omnipotency.

Happy thoughts

-v

So, if a child turns murderer, the parents should be charged too?

Also, God being good and evil would be an oxymoron. It would make him a hypocrit.

You can either have morals, and follow them, or you can discount them.

Originally posted by sdrawkcabII
For the people that DO use the Bible as their source and hope...I say to you this;

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

[italics by v01i0]

Yep. This is true. Obviously to many christians however, bible then is not their guiding princible about understanding god Here are more references:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Bible in Basic English
I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Source.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
Also, God being good and evil would be an oxymoron. It would make him a hypocrit.

I am not saying that God is a hypocrit, but I wouldn't either deny that previlege from it. I do know so little about God and only reference I can count on are the empirical experiences I had.

Respectfully,

-v

[edit on 20-8-2008 by v01i0]

Originally posted by v01i0


I am not saying that God is a hypocrit, but I wouldn't either deny that previlege from it. I do know so little about God and only reference I can count on are the empirical experiences I had.

Respectfully,

-v

[edit on 20-8-2008 by v01i0]

As I understand it, God in this passage is creating a line of demarcation between good and evil for us to define our moral souls without which there would be know way to know the difference and then warns of the fruits of it being sadness pain etc,.

in the hebrew Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.

Isaiah seems to refer to the Oriental belief in two coexistent, eternal principles, ever struggling with each other, light or good, and darkness or evil, yin and yang.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

45:5-10 There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose. This doctrine is applied, for the comfort of those that earnestly longed, yet quietly waited, for the redemption of Israel. The redemption of sinners by the Son of God, and the pouring out the Spirit, to give success to the gospel, are chiefly here intended. We must not expect salvation without righteousness; together the Lord hath created them. Let not oppressors oppose God's designs for his people. Let not the poor oppressed murmur, as if God dealt unkindly with them. Men are but earthen pots; they are broken potsherds, and are very much made so by mutual contentions. To contend with Him is as senseless as for clay to find fault with the potter. Let us turn God's promises into prayers, beseeching him that salvation may abound among us, and let us rest assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right.

bible.cc...

[edit on 20-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]

[edit on 20-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]

Groupies--

Religious ideas change a great deal over time...as the literature of the Hebrews clearly shows by a 'close' reading of their texts

As far as evil and good are concerned, todays' Rabinnic Jews tend to skirt the whole issue of their clan god YHWH (Yahweh) being responsible for creating both good and evil but postulating what they term an ‘evil inclination’ to mankind--rather than making the clan god totally responsible for the presence of evil in the world.

The case was different before the massive changes that occured in Palestine around BC 587 with the advent of the Babylonian deportation of the priests when new 'foreign' ideas were imported and grafted on to older ones. Things that happened before the Exile are called pre-Exilic and those that happened AFTER the Exile are called post-Exilic by scholars, because it marked such a definitive turning point in all the theologies of the writers of the Hebrew bible.

We can clearly see some of the more early paleo-Hebrew ideas prevalent before and during Babylonian Exile (587BC) that do NOT have a 'Shaitan' (‘enemy’, ‘blocker’) or ‘Satan’ figure or even anything like angels, but YHWH himself is responsible for the whole shebang. This idea changed when ‘the Jews returned to Zion’ after 480BC and during the Iranian (Persian) occupation of Palestine (BC 531 to BC 331) when they were introduced to the invaders Zoroastrian-Persian ideas of angels, daemons, Satan, resurrection of the dead, The Last Days and the Final Judgment of the Wicked Ones etc. we see what we now call 'dualism' (opposites) which influenced the gnostic sects which began to spread afterr 300BC after the Greeks took over where the Persians had left off in the Levant.

Have a close look at the linguistically early (and in a heavy Elamite Hebrew accent !) pre-Exilic poetic sections of the Book of Job (beginning chapter 3) written around 700 BC after the fall of the northern Kingdom which send exiles into Elam and Assyria (which book has a later post-Exilic Angel and Daemon filled more Palestinian Hebrew styled prose non poetic section dated around 350 BC, beginning in chapters 1 and 2 written during the Persian period) which begins at chapter 3 and extends to chapter 48 (except for the last paragraph!) the god ELOAH (singular of Elohim) is responsible for BOTH good and evil -- as Job’s ‘friends’ keep trying to tell him throughout the poem.

Here are some other pre-Exilic and Exilic writings which have Yahweh responsible for evil and good, without the intercession of a Satan figure or daemons etc. which reflect the pre-Persian invasion period in Judaeo-Cannaanite theology c. 600 BC

See Isaiah 45:7

I am YHWH
I form the Light and I create the Darkness:
I form the Peace, and create Calamity;
It is even I, YHWH alone, that have done these things !

Amos 3:6

Shall the Ram’s Horn be blown in a city and the people not afraid?
Shall evil enter into a city, and YHWH not himself caused it to be?

Lamentations of Jeremiah 3:38

Is is not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil emanate?

There are great differences in outlook and general worldviews expressed in pre-Exilic Hebrew writings reflecting several distinct ‘Judaisms’ and the Persian influenced post Exlic (post 480 BC) writings which reflect another batch of distinct ‘Judaeisms’ that existed in various forms and in various places within the Levant—and this Persian influenced dualism (with good and bad being created by 2 separate beings, and with an almost Zoroastrian emphasis on dualistic opposites such as dark./light, evil/good, life/death, heaven/hell etc) led straight to the preaching of ‘Jesus’ and the earliest Christians (do not we read of Persian Zoroastrian ‘Magoi from the East’ in the Matthean account of the nativity bearing gifts of gold and incense ? !)

I wonder how many ‘Christians’ and ‘Jews’ (or Muslims !) even know any of this ?

The bible is obviously ficticious so your declaring a ficticous God evil. Mission accomplished sheepboy

Regarding the creation of evil. God is supposed to know everything (he is god after all) and thus knew what he was going to create when he created Lucifer. So, he created his own nemesis, if you will - and all the evil in the world too.


Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is ne neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god.

~Epicurus

reply to post by sum stoner


Haha. Thank you

Anyway, I know you may not be interested but I nevertheless have to say that even though I refer in to the bible in many places, I do not "support" the view of Christian god; God is unimaginable, so no religion have got it right, IMO. One has to find God alone.

-v

Originally posted by sum stoner
The bible is obviously ficticious so your declaring a ficticous God evil. Mission accomplished sheepboy

No that would be bad grammar as it does in fact exist, I think you are trying to say it is fictional and in so doing you super imposed your opinion it is fictional on the OP suggesting he is declaring the God in a fictional book evil. Then you accord him his mission was accomplished.

This is real clever, for someone at your level.

You come here ad-hom the entire subject matter using a cheap qualifier we are to assume is "obvious" while attempting to put the whole message and meaning in someone elses mouth. Then you add the classic insult calling him sheep boy for saying it Have I missed anything ???

So what have we learned about you "stoner"?

1) that you think you're clever and you're not

2) you're dishonest therefore your opinion is suspect

3) you manufacture evidence in the form of assumed inference on quotes never made then insult the person as if he said it, the entire reason for doing it, is to give you a justifiable reason to make the insult cheaply enhancing your ego by belittling others. You think it makes you look "cool" and it doesnt.

in fact it makes you look as you truly are,, classless
Mission Accomplished !

Troll boy



]

[edit on 21-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]

Originally posted by v01i0


Haha. Thank you

-v

HUH??? thank him? for what? adding respectability to your thread with his staggering intellect? HA HA C'mon man,, those kind of people kill a thread faster than you can answer most of their posts. If he had anything substantive to say he would have said it. What he does say the title told him and he just added his cynical spin on it but he has no respector of a believer in any Gods what so ever. It's one thing to feed the trolls in a thread but to thank them???


You might want consider a more academic explanation for the problem of evil. here plato.stanford.edu...

You can see that God can create evil but not in the context you are arguing here. It's someone saying I make the Bomb,, but I don't drop it


[edit on 21-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]

Originally posted by v01i0

Do not deny evil from God

Looking at good and evil is misguided.

If you really want to understand good and evil from the human point of view you need to first define life and death.

God is life, until we define God we have not defined life.

Science can say whatever the hell it likes about life, but God will still be life and we will still be less than God.

Are the thoughts in your head alive?

We are like thoughts in the mind of God, all things are.

Is it evil to change your mind?

Is it good?

We look at inanimate objects and we don't consider them to be alive.

Put yourself in the position of being eternal, omniscient, and omnipresent to our reality.

From that point of view wouldn't you think that anything limited to our four dimensions of space time is more are les inanimate and lifeless?

It is no different than the way we perceive the state of gravel and dirt, or any of the material substance of our universe.

We think of the inanimate as being lifeless, to God who is immortal the mortal is inanimate.

We are born into this world dead, with no hope of life whatsoever, from the position of the spiritual.

In our death we tell ourselves we are alive, however it is nothing but involuntary reflexes, electro chemical reactions, energy moving from point A to point B back again to point A until it is dissipated.

We are Peter (Petros), simple dust particles blown about in the wind.

What we call life is walled in by death, with no hope whatsoever of having more, without God to raise up and make us into something greater, to free us from the quantum paradox of consciousness in which all of us are imprisoned.

Can it be evil to cast dust into the air?

If there is no life in dust and we give dust life how can that be evil?


[edit on 21-8-2008 by newday]

Originally posted by newday
Looking at good and evil is misguided.

But I take it NOT for you?

If you really want to understand good and evil from the human point of view

Umm you are talking to humans are you not? I thought so, then you may be surprised to know,, it is the only point of view we got.

you need to first define life and death.

www.Dictionary.com good enough?

God is life, until we define God we have not defined life

So wouldn't it have been easier to start this there rather then say all that other stuff leading up to this?

Science can say whatever the hell it likes about life, but God will still be life and we will still be less than God

.
Ok

Are the thoughts in your head alive?

is this a trick question?

We are like thoughts in the mind of God, all things are.

ao are the thoughts in Gods head alive?

is it evil to change your mind

Oh? I have a mind? I thought I was a though in Gods mind, now I'm confused. is it misguided stil?

Is it good?

was it good for you?

We look at inanimate objects and we don't consider them to be alive.

Put yourself in the position of being eternal, omniscient, and omnipresent to our reality.

If I could do that, I would BE god

From that point of view wouldn't you think that anything limited to our four dimensions of space time is more are les inanimate and lifeless?

umm how many dimensions?? four you say??

It is no different than the way we perceive the state of gravel and dirt, or any of the material substance of our universe.

We think of the inanimate as being lifeless, to God who is immortal the mortal is inanimate.

speak for yourself newday I never said that's how I think

We are born into this world dead, with no hope of life whatsoever, from the position of the spiritual.

God told you this?

In our death we tell ourselves we are alive, however it is nothing but involuntary reflexes, electro chemical reactions, energy moving from point A to point B back again to point A until it is dissipated.

Umm if were dead than why are we having electrochemical reactions with energy? Oh that's right, we never defined Death,, did we.

We are Peter (Petros), simple dust particles blown about in the wind.

sort of antithetical; to the greek version of petros used in the context of something solid and sercure refering to Rock and not merely dust

What we call life is walled in by death, with no hope whatsoever of having more, without God to raise up and make us into something greater, to free us from the quantum paradox of consciousness in which all of us are imprisoned.

Is this where we escape his brain as thoughts and become innaimate gravel?

Can it be evil to cast dust into the air?

is the dust anthrax?

If there is no life in dust and we give dust life how can that be evil?

if the dust is anthrax their will be no life and that would be death

after that, it really doesn't matter if it's evil anymore.






[edit on 21-8-2008 by XIDIXIDIX]

reply to post by v01i0


Hi

I'd like to respond to your quotes that you claim show that God is the author of evil.

I responded to the same claim in a similar thread with the following. I hope some readers find it helpful.


There is an axiomatic principle of Bible interpretation that enables us to deduce the intended meaning of passages that all relate to the same subject: we use what is unquestionably clear to interpret what contains ambiguity. Thus the following passage can be taken as demonstrating whether evil eminates from God Himself:

...God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

1 John 1:5

Such statements can then be used to find the intended meaning of the passages you quote. The reason so many of the passages you quote refer to 'evil' is a linguistic issue. When you translate from one language into another the words are hardly ever 100% synonyms. (I've studied linguistic theory and worked as a professional translator.) This is because each word contains different associations in each language. As a result accurate translation requires the same word in the source language to be translated differently in the target langauge according to context. This is quite a different process from how we begin to learn a language at school, where "a = b". The range of some words' meanings is closer than others.

To take a simple example, 'milk' may always be translatable with a single word. But, hang on, the target language may be used by a tribe that herds animals and has different words for cows milk, goats milk, horses' milk and camels milk. (Incidentally, I was once living in a country where I bought a bottle of milk with a purple foil top. I'd only been there a few days, and it turned out I'd bought horse's yoghurt - much to the amusement and merriment of my friends!)

Now imagine how careful you have to be with less common words. All the more so with adjectives and abstract nouns. Just to illustrate, OT Hebrew has a word that can be translated either 'breath' or 'wind' or 'power'. Although this is an obvious example, the principle holds for all words, although sometimes less obviously. These are universally acknowledged principles of translation.

Thus when the Bible clearly teaches that evil does not emanate from God Himself any apparent statement to the contrary is, frankly, a matter of mistranslation, a failure to be sensitive to the context. The first Bible translators were so afraid of being unfaithful to God's words that they were as literal as possible in their approach. Linguistic research and theory have now uncovered the principle that trying to always equate one word with another in two languages actually guarantees inaccuracy! This is what has happened where older translations insisted on keeping the word 'evil' when translating a particular Hebrew word (ra') throughout the OT.

Later translations show greater sensitivity to context, using words such as 'calamity', 'catastrophe', 'disaster', etc., as what is being referred to is how God is dealing with outright rebellion against Him and His ways. If you now substitute 'evil' with these English words in the verses you quoted you will find that they make more sense. The verses referring to an 'evil spirit' have a different, straight-forward explanation: it was the spirits that were evil (not God!), and He simply permitted them to afflict certain people. (There is a connection, however: it is all to do with God withdrawing His protection from those who hate Him.)

You quoted Deuteronomy 30:15: "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil" In context this actually demonstrates how God equates choosing evil with rejecting Him! Read the whole chapter, and it will leave you in no doubt:

"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments... that the Lord your God may bless you... If your heart turns away... you shall surely perish... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life...

Deut. 30:15,16,17a,18b,19b

Far from distancing God from something He is the creator of, modern translators enable us as native English speakers to understand what the original writers intended us to understand. They are to be commended for that.

As to your final comment, Satan's rule is via rebellion. That is why it was Christ's business to cast Him out and plunder His kingdom. He is no viceroy!!!

The Son of God appeared for this purpose: to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:8b

AMEN to that.

Originally posted by XIDIXIDIX

But I take it NOT for you?

If you can would you write a complete thought for me to read without taking words out of context so you can make them mean whatever you like.

I would like to talk to you but you need to try and have whole thoughts and put them in complete statements so I can read them and get some idea of what you actually think about this subject.

All I have told you is what God has told me.

I do talk to God and He communicates with me as well, in a lot of different ways...

You seem to be upset with the idea that God communicates His will to people.

But it is hard to tell what you are saying when you write in fragments.

reply to post by v01i0



I don't know that when it comes down to it, that I really think of God as either good or evil or both. I believe His power is infinite and limitless. I believe He is the creator so I suppose He knows what is best and certainly has the right to rule over all. But imo He doesn't, instead He gives us free will, and that is where evil slips in. When I think of who God is I am reminded His name is I Am and that works for me. I am glad that part of my life isn't spent trying to figure out religion or who God is, it would be so time consuming. I used to have a bumper sticker that said "God said it and I believe it" --- I know that just irks the hell out of some of you.

reply to post by v01i0


Some people have to deny this.They can't accept that evil came from God,just like some people can't accept that the US government (amongst others) was behind 9/11.

Its like its almost too big for them to grasp;it also goes against their personal views of God,which contradicts the Bible's view of God.


When they change the word evil to another they change the meaning of the sentence or verse.For example;


Deuteronomy 30:15

KJV-

See,I have set before thee this day life and good,and death and evil

NIV-

See,I set before you today life and prosperity,death and destruction.

Many people can have goodness/be good without prospering,whether in family,business etc.Also,people choose to do good and choose to do evil.
Can you choose to prosper? No.You can endevour;you can try but the success of it is not something that you can choose to have.

Can you choose to be a calamity,a disaster?
No.You can choose to do an action that can lead to these situations.
So that means the action you chose to do,the one that lead to a disaster,was an action of evil;you chose evil first,without it you could have no calamity or disaster.


In Proverbs 16:4 its clear that evil originated with God.(that doesn't mean God is evil.)

KJV-

The LORD hath made all things for himself:yea,even the wicked for the day of evil.

NIV-

The LORD works out everything for his own ends—even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Here they deny that God has made all things,they have stripped him of this power.He works/uses the wicked for his own ends but he didn't make them.
Some people don't realize that this change has weakened the very God they claim to worship.

reply to post by jakyll



Hi jakyll

I answered your first point previously. You have misunderstood the totally plain meaning of Deut.30:15 to such an extent that I can only guess you are perhaps repeating what you have read in a book or been taught in a particular group to justify the false, unbiblical doctrine that moral evil originates from God.

Here is what the text actually means, once again:

You quoted Deuteronomy 30:15: "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil" In context this actually demonstrates how God equates choosing evil with rejecting Him! Read the whole chapter, and it will leave you in no doubt:

"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments... that the Lord your God may bless you... If your heart turns away... you shall surely perish... I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life...

Deut. 30:15,16,17a,18b,19b

"Set before you" simply means described for you / defined for you. There is absolutely no ambiguity whatsoever. They are being told to chose God's ways, which will result in His blessing, and reject a life of disobeying his commandments which would result in withdrawal of his blessing and protection, and even in them being cursed by God.

You then go on to make the following claim:

In Proverbs 16:4 its clear that evil originated with God.(that doesn't mean God is evil.)

KJV-

The LORD hath made all things for himself:yea,even the wicked for the day of evil.

NIV-

The LORD works out everything for his own ends—even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Again I have to say that unfortunately you do not have a leg to stand on. All it is saying is that God created those who chose to lead a life of wickedness and that he has determined that they will reap catastrophic consequences. As such it is the same, consistent message as is given in Deut. 30.

Yes of course God uses the wicked for His own ends, but He in no way makes them that way - that is their own doing. He is just one step ahead of them. Eternity ahead of them, actually.

As to your claim that this consistent biblical teaching somehow demeans God I can only say that you are mighty confused on this issue. Only moral purity and perfection emanate from God. The fact that this is an essential element of His glory has somehow eluded you.

reply to post by XIDIXIDIX


Hey XID, thanks for taking care of that troll I thanked the trolled because I wanted to show him that the stone he threw bounced off. Also, thanks for posting that link too, it is interesting read. Although it didn't make lot of use for me because the logical argument there assumes God to be omnipotent; I don't regard God as such (but many does).

Here is the answer for the rest of the people who came here and comment without bothering to read more to find out more objective stance before commenting:

I personally believe that God is everything, including the evil. But what I've learned during the evolution of this particular thread, is that Good and Evil are actually not creations, but merely a way to descripe the moral outcome of action; undesiredable action is ofter referred as evil and desired action is good. Good and Evil - just like Cold and Warm that descripe temperature - are merely subjective ways to describe the desirefulness.

So, following is important because people has largely misundestood me:
Because evil and good are subjective matters, God can act in a way that we consider it's action to be evil. But those who understand the nature of God objectively, understands that God's actions are nor Good nor Evil. They are just inavoidable, necessary and correct.

I know that now some 'evolutionary atheist' could say that: "Hey, you think God does the right thing always? Haha, you fool, just look at these failed 'experiments' of evolution which you say are supposed to be work of God if you say God is everything!" And I have no good answer on that. I can just say that I myself am imperfect and cannot understand how everything is related on everything and that the universe is a great system of effects and causality.

I am sorry for I cannot answer every comment that would deserve a reply, bacause I gotta run. I might log on later and see if I have anything to say.

All the best for everyone,

-v

reply to post by pause4thought


Hello again.

I answered your first point previously. You have misunderstood the totally plain meaning of Deut.30:15 to such an extent that I can only guess you are perhaps repeating what you have read in a book or been taught in a particular group to justify the false, unbiblical doctrine that moral evil originates from God.

If i remember correctly you never answered my theory on Deuteronomy.And i'm repeating nothing i've read or heard,it is my own theory.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

You are correct,they are being told to choose life.And what comes with life? Good.If you choose evil you are choosing death too.And as i stated,you cannot choose to be a calamity or a disaster,but you can choose to do an evil action that can bring these events about.

As verses 18 and 19 says;if you turn away and follow other gods,God will denounce you.Worshiping false idols is not only the very 1st commandment but its also a sin,which is wicked.Sin is not a calamity,nor a disaster,it is an act of evil.(meaning an act done with full intention.)

Again I have to say that unfortunately you do not have a leg to stand on. All it is saying is that God created those who chose to lead a life of wickedness and that he has determined that they will reap catastrophic consequences. As such it is the same, consistent message as is given in Deut. 30.

I would agree with you except for one thing.4 little words.

for the day of evil.

God has made the wicked for a purpose.What is this day of evil? No one seems to know;except God.He has made the wicked for something very specific,as this verse implies.

As to your claim that this consistent biblical teaching somehow demeans God I can only say that you are mighty confused on this issue. Only moral purity and perfection emanate from God. The fact that this is an essential element of His glory has somehow eluded you.

And you like many others seem to think that if evil originated with God then this somehow makes him less pure etc.

This is not the case at all.

In another thread i used this as an example;Karl Marx & Frederick Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto,it was a plea for equality and better standards of living for the working classes.Other people took this philosophy,twisted it and used it for their own ends;violence,hatred,control etc.

Now,does this make Marx & Engels evil?
Of course not.

God created life and along with life came free will.
Free will is pointless if you do not have a negative option along side a positive one.

The choice of positive or positive;how can God test your faith when that is the only option?

Choose positive (good & life) or negative (death & evil) then God can truly challenge you.

reply to post by jakyll

You are correct,they are being told to choose life.And what comes with life? Good.If you choose evil you are choosing death too.And as i stated,you cannot choose to be a calamity or a disaster,but you can choose to do an evil action that can bring these events about.

As verses 18 and 19 says;if you turn away and follow other gods,God will denounce you.Worshiping false idols is not only the very 1st commandment but its also a sin,which is wicked.Sin is not a calamity,nor a disaster,it is an act of evil.(meaning an act done with full intention.)

I am trying to get to the bottom of what you are saying, but it is not clear. The first paragraph above is a straw man: who said you can choose to be a calamity or disaster? As I said, the meaning is plain: if someone turns away from their Maker and His ways they will perish. They will experience the ultimate calamity: eternal separation from God's love and blessing.

The second paragraph contains another straw man. Who said sin is a calamity or a disaster? I can only assume you are trying to say the translation of the word must be 'evil' rather than 'adversity', etc. But the straw man argument proves nothing. Are you saying it must mean 'evil' because you cannot make sense of the verse otherwise? If so, that is not an argument. It's simply an admission you haven't understood why modern translations are more accurate.

I said:

Again I have to say that unfortunately you do not have a leg to stand on. All it is saying is that God created those who chose to lead a life of wickedness and that he has determined that they will reap catastrophic consequences. As such it is the same, consistent message as is given in Deut. 30.

You responded

I would agree with you except for one thing.4 little words.

...

for the day of evil.

God has made the wicked for a purpose.What is this day of evil? No one seems to know;except God.He has made the wicked for something very specific,as this verse implies.

The answer is as clear as a bell in Scripture:

What if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?

Romans 9:22

That is the ultimate calamity that results from a puny human being rejecting the love and mercy of their Maker and living a life of rebellion. It is so horrific that those of us who know these things accept derision and ridicule as being of little consequence in comparison with the joy of seeing people reconciled with their Maker through faith in Christ.

In another thread i used this as an example;Karl Marx & Frederick Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto,it was a plea for equality and better standards of living for the working classes.Other people took this philosophy,twisted it and used it for their own ends;violence,hatred,control etc.

Now,does this make Marx & Engels evil?
Of course not.

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but you are unaware that Karl Marx was a practising Satanist. Do some research, the facts are out there. (Karl Marx was a Practising Satanist)

Quite why you want to make God the author of evil escapes me. The arguments you put forward seem to consist of obfuscation, and leave the reader wondering whether you have an agenda rather than an open mind. I'm sorry to have to say that, but your idea that evil originated with God is demonstrably wrong. If you accept biblical teaching that is. (I perceive that the OP does not, so he can justifiably claim to be consistent, if not biblical in his view.)

The choice of positive or positive;how can God test your faith when that is the only option?

God permits evil. He is not its originator. He permits temptation.

God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone.

James 1:13b

Choose positive (good & life) or negative (death & evil) then God can truly challenge you.

Choose to have faith in what God has revealed rather than your own ideas then God can truly bless you.





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[edit on 22/8/08 by pause4thought]