If you think that God is omnipotent, then do not deny evil from it!

Originally posted by juniperberryAs a woman, I can totally relate to the curiosity thing. The quickest way to get me to focus on something is to not give a straight answer to a straight question. Is it any wonder why men get into such trouble with women in general?

Well, that is kind of my point. Like I said, I am curious (as most women are), but I tend to go with my curiosity because I know there is a reason for it.

I have read and studied and searched and contemplated the bible probably more than most of those claiming to be christian on here do (an assumption based on the fact that quite often a lot of you *referring to the christians and not the one I am replying to* don't even know what the bible says about certain topics). I still read it and contemplate it, but I don't blindly buy into the idea that it is inspired by god (although I think parts of it were written by enlightened men *SOME* of it) and using logical think and practical application I can clearly see that quite a bit of it was written with the intent to gain control over others w/out serious questioning.

It plays to ppl's emotions and effectively puts a wet towel on any questioning from those who subscribe to the lie that it is the inspired word of god.

This story in genesis leaves so many unanswered questions and blanks that to the rational and curious person is easily recognized as *important* details.

If we are to take it as it is, then I can only be left with a picture of a god who was either arrogant to a fault (i.e. cruel) or so stupid he wouldn't know his arse from his face.

Neither of these ideals of god are intriguing or appealing to me and if this is god, then I feel that I am better left to do what I can to live a happy and personally fulfilling life while I can before I get tossed away into the eternal burning furnace of darkness because a god like this can't be trusted to not to add more ridiculous stipulations for eternal security.

Again, if you take the bible AT ITS WORD and not the millions of interpretations that ppl have for it, the account as given in the bible of the fall of man was a clear set up by god himself. He, after all, was the one with supposed infinite knowledge... not Lucifer and not certainly not the innocent couple in the garden.

In retrospect.. from this story as it appears here following the events as laid out in the first chapter of the bible, it appears as though the subjugation of women and treating them as second-class citizens started BEFORE the 'great sin'.

This sort of puts paid to the idea that women should be subjugated BECAUSE of the eating of the fruit..

Would God itself really favour 50% of its creation over the other 50%?

Clearly I took creative lisence in writing that out, but I am coming at it from the only perspective I can...... a woman's perspective.

I see the wisdom in a woman "submitting" to a man, but not a man that wouldn't value her curiosity and use it to his benefit to gain knowledge to insure that the couple doesn't fall into a trap.

Since the bible leaves out so many details regarding this account, one is left to speculate the important missing pieces. As a woman, yes, curiosity is part of my nature which leaves me to wonder

1. Why did god only say "don't eat lest you will surely die." They didn't even know the concept of death. ARe you telling me that they didn't question, "yo god, what is die? why is that something we don't want to experience (or why is it a bad thing)?"

2. And since this is god laying out the rules of the game, would he really have been so dumb as to not realize that the punishment of death means little to two beings he just created and have never had any experience with the concept of death?

3. Why didn't he inform eve himself? Why did he make Adam tell her bc I personally would have found it a tad bit more effective if god had told me himself, wouldn't you?

4. He, god, created sin when he put the tree in front of them and told them not to touch or else. They may have made the choice, but in their favor, the choice was hardly based on adequate education as to the punishment god would impose for their disobedience to his seemingly pointless command.

5. He, again god, is one day going to throw Lucifer into the bottomless pit so out of love for his creation, he could have easily done so BEFORE creating thus avoiding the added temptation factor; and the fact that he didn't but even allowed Lucifer to come in and hit eve up rather than adam (which men are less curious in general and he would have likely have seen the trap and not fallen for it) just shows that this supposedly "loving" god had no care in protecting his creation from the doom he set up when they would fall victim to the temptation he put in their faces and drew attention to.

6. The fact that eve took the apple to adam to get him to bite doesn't tell me that she was trying to get him to fall cuz she didn't want to be alone in her sin (after all, she took the bite and apparently all was pretty damn good and "die" wasn't such a bad thing) but because she wanted to share with him as it was put in her to want to do.

7. It is in a man's nature to be easily tranced by a woman and want to please her.

8. And where was god in all of this? I would never leave my children alone with a temptation that could the result of falling for would inevitably lead to their banishment from my presence. I would have never set up the perfect situation for them to fall so hard in the first place.


Did god set up the fall to be inevitable? Well, if you take the account in genesis at its word and believe that god was not a dumb arse, then yes he set up the demise of his creation. If you carry out it out to the conclusion the bible speaks of where ppl will go to hell simply bc they didn't buy into a story that was handed to them by their parents, their friend, their local pastor, a stranger on the street, or some other man..... then my friends, I hate to be the one to break it to you, the god in the bible is evil and makes up ridiculous laws that are pointless other than the fact that he wants us to prove we love him.

Excuse me while I puke. I just have a hard time believing that Eve giving into her curiosity and Adam wanting to please his woman was done because they hated (didn't love) god and if god can't see that he is an idiot and if god can see that, he is a stingy god whose love is based in selfishness. Obey me or you don't love me and if you don't love me than I will roast you for all eternity.

To me that sounds like something a control freak came up bc he/she was afraid ppl might find out that they are in control of their own life and their own happiness at any given moment bc when ppl realize this they experience a great rush of freedom from those who would abuse, control, and exploit their fears.



[edit on 18-8-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by v01i0

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Question is not whether evil is a thing, but whether God is evil as well as good. There is a difference. If god cannot be evil, then he is not omnipotent in that sense.
[edit on 18-8-2008 by v01i0]

Evil cannot be defined as evil unless you have a standard by which to compare it with. Just as a thermometer measures the heat in water, so does the Bible define good and evil. How? By telling us the will of God. Anything that is against His will, is evil. So how can God be evil? IMPOSSIBLE. His will is Perfect, Just and Holy.

As a dictionary settles every debate concerning the spelling or definition of a word, so does the Bible clearly define the will of God. The question here, really, is "What is your absolute?"

Originally posted by -0mega-
You say Evil is not a *thing* it is the absence of good.
Good is a thing then? A measurable thing?
Please show me a gauge or any type of measuring instrument that can measure my ''goodness'' or absence of goodness.

[edit on 18/8/08 by -0mega-]

As mentioned above, the Bible.

Originally posted by MurangeloEvil cannot be defined as evil unless you have a standard by which to compare it with. Just as a thermometer measures the heat in water, so does the Bible define good and evil. How? By telling us the will of God. Anything that is against His will, is evil. So how can God be evil? IMPOSSIBLE. His will is Perfect, Just and Holy.

Uhm, but your standard of measurement is based on something written by men. You can say inspired by god all you want but you can't argue that is was written by man.

So we both agree on the fact it is written by man (I am assuming you are at least that intelligent enough to concur on this point).

So, the only logical follow through is that man wrote in the bible that the bible was inspired by god.

Another logical follow through would be to say that you believe a man simply based on his own word.

Follow that through and I can conclude that you believe dubbya was inspired by god to commit all the crimes he committed while in office.

After all, he is a man and he said he was inspired by god (and not only god, but THE god the same men in the bible laid claim to being inspired by).

Funny how all the men inspired by this same god seem to be the authority speaking for god when it comes to what is right and what is wrong..

Scary that so many ppl buy it hook line and sinker.





[edit on 19-8-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by v01i0
I truly appreciate your honesty and candor. It's not often that people will engage in mutually respectful "debate" instead of just having an "argument" I have a lot of respect for you, when we debate we can learn from eachother.

Question is not whether evil is a thing, but whether God is evil as well as good. There is a difference. If god cannot be evil, then he is not omnipotent in that sense.

I think it most certainly depends on "evil" being an actual thing, meaning something that can be created. Visible or not. And it is very hard for us humans to try and conceive God's attributes with our human minds. Agree? God is pure good, God is Holy, God created everything good. Satan and man corrupted all things good by their rejection of God's commands.

God did NOT "create evil", he created beings capable of doing evil if they so choose. There is a big difference, I would consider justamomma's idea about God 'creating robots' to be an inferior creation than how God actually created us. He created us in His image, He created us with the free will to choose who we would obey. I argue that God created all things, when God created Lucifer he was not evil, he fell from grace, he chose to rebel. "Evil", just like "cold", are not things that exist, they are labels given to the absence of their counterparts: "good" and "heat".

After all human are in no way special in God's creation.

Absolutely untrue, in fact the opposite is true, we are the ONLY thing God created in his image. That is why Satan hates us so much, because we, not him, was created in the image of God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Not only did He create man in His image, he also gave man "dominion" over all other creations.

Now you kinda delved into "why God allows disasters" or permits humans to commit great evil. Many times like you said it is for judgment of sin, or so that he can show His goodness after the fact. Many times children are taken from sinful families, or societies before they come to the age of accountability. "Evil" ONLY comes about in this world because a person violates one of God's commandments. I cannot think of a single atrocity ever committed by men that cannot be traced to a failure to keep one or a few of God's perfect commandments.

reply to post by -0mega-

You say Evil is not a *thing* it is the absence of good.
Good is a thing then? A measurable thing?

Absolutely, God is good. Everything God originally created was good, Lucifer included. An outstanding read:


"All that emanates from God—His decrees, His creation, His laws, His providences—cannot be otherwise than good: as it is written. "And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Gen. 1:31). Thus, the "goodness" of God is seen, first, in Creation. The more closely the creature is studied, the more the beneficence of its Creator becomes apparent. Take the highest of God’s earthly creatures, man. Abundant reason has he to say with the Psalmist, "I will praise Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are Thy works, and that my soul knoweth right well" (139:14). Everything about the structure of our bodies attests the goodness of their Maker. How suited the bands to perform their allotted work! How good of the Lord to appoint sleep to refresh the wearied body! How benevolent His provision to give unto the eyes lids and brows for their protection! And so we might continue indefinitely."


Here

Please show me a gauge or any type of measuring instrument that can measure my ''goodness'' or absence of goodness.

All the commandments given to Moses in Exodus. Those are God's standard for "good".

reply to post by caballero
You're wrong that is PRECISELY what "cold" is: the condition we call when heat is removed. Cold is not a thing, cold is the absence of heat.

Is 0 degrees "cold" compared to -100 degrees? Both are measurements of heat, not coldness.

let me ask you another way: Is darkness a thing? Are there darkness waves? Of course not, "darkness" is the absence of "light". Light is the tangible thing, there are waves of light.

Originally posted by SUMDUMONKEY
reply to post by Clearskies

 

But if sa turned evil...that means that god created evil..because he supposedly created everything didint he???? so if evil exists god created it so he must have a evil side. And then you say to yourself GOD GIVES YOU A CHOICE..but why would he create it then. And if god is omnipresent that means he knew that you would choose the evil side.....um yeah makes sense

God didn't 'create Satan". God created LUCIFER. Lucifer chose to rebel and became Satan. God didn't create Satan, he created Lucifer with the capacity to choose to rebel.

Originally posted by euclid
reply to post by v01i0

 

I agree with you.

Here is thought experiment that should short-circuit some of the fanatics out there from many religions:

Question:
Can God/Yahweh/Allah/[insertYourGodsNameHere] make a rock so big and heavy that he could not pick it up?

-Euclid

[edit on 18-8-2008 by euclid]

On Earth? No, the Earth is to small.

In the vastness of space? First you tell me which way is "up" in space. It's infinite, there is no "up" or "down" in space, those are terms relevant on Earth, or the moon, or something with gravity.

Oh wow, justamomma, you wrote me 2 novels. lol, I will respond hopefully by tomorrow evening, I appreciate your attention to typing every detail and I'll give it a due response when time allows, it's kinda late and I'm about off to bed.

I think it took 15 minutes to just read both twice.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Oh wow, justamomma, you wrote me 2 novels. lol, I will respond hopefully by tomorrow evening, I appreciate your attention to typing every detail and I'll give it a due response when time allows, it's kinda late and I'm about off to bed.

I think it took 15 minutes to just read both twice.

I sure did, huh? Well, just thought I'd answer thoroughly this time and the topic of this thread seemed to give me the opportunity. Just wanted you to know I was paying was attention

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Absolutely, God is good. Everything God originally created was good, Lucifer included. An outstanding read:

That's the big problem, God may be good but where is God? In the ''best'' case scenario I would be assuming that all I see is what God created, but God *himself* is nowhere to be found.

I can't hang up a God-o-meter and suddenly see ''go(o)dness rising''.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
All the commandments given to Moses in Exodus. Those are God's standard for "good".

What about other religions then? Some religions have other kind of ''commandments'', does that mean that all other religions who do not agree with Moses are evil?


IMO the bible cannot be considered a valid measuring tool until there is total proof that the bible is the *one* and *only* truth.

[edit on 19/8/08 by -0mega-]

reply to post by justamomma


Oh there's lot to read. I'll give some quick answers before considering your post, I have to read it through first

reply to post by -0mega-


I think Caballero answered your post pretty well. I thank him for that and point you to his answer.

Originally posted by euclid

God is both the good and evil; it manifests as a dual set of god and satan, and within each is the essence of the other.

-Euclid

Said again. I wish more people would understand this. But I also wish that people would understand what "evil" and "good" actually is. About it in following:

Originally posted by Murangelo

Evil cannot be defined as evil unless you have a standard by which to compare it with.

I think this post approaches my current view of good and evil. Poster Omega pointed out that my topic and thread are actually conflicting. Yes, they may appear bit confusing.

So, let me try to rephrase my thought: Do not say that God cannot be evil, or you will do injustice to it's capabilites. By evil I mean evil from our standpoint. Just as we observe the temperature and whether it is cold or warm, we do observe evil and good. But we need to understand that it is merely from our standpoint. There is no objective cold and warm, good and evil! And in that sense, NOTurTypical was correct by saying God is not evil. But it isn't exactly good either. God of course enjoys it's creating and everything he does or sees in it is good, for the plan is perfect.

And finally:
reply to post by NOTurTypical


I agree that God created us as it's images, but so is everything else it's images; I don't take bible very literally because it is written by humans who thought that they were receiving the word from God, but they actually received this message within themselves. As far as I know, only ten commandments are directly from God, and even on that, we have to count on what bible says about Moses and his encounter with God on mt. Sinai.

Bible has been edited so many times that it has to be read very selectively. If bible would be coherent and only the will of god, there wouldn't be so mixed up conclusions about it (in forms of different religious cults).

The way I see it, even this keyboard which I am tapping, is creation of God. If we are it's creation and we created this keyboard, so... I don't need to continue on that.

In the end, I'd like to thank everyone for contributing in this conversation in such nice manner. Regardless the varying opinions, posts have remained quite civil so far. I truly hope this will continue to be so and I also hope best for everyone. Thanks

-v

[edit on 19-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That might be the way we classify cold. But cold is its own seperate you feel cold and you throw on a blanket, without cold our planet would overheat and we would die, without heat we would all freeze to death and our planet become a block of ice.

TWO HALVES OF THE SAME WHOLE. Cold is just as important to heat and that is why cold exsists just as heat does. If cold is the absence of heat then heat is the absence of cold. Either way im not wong.

Same for darkness there is absence of light and absence of dark. Two halves of the same whole both equally important to the balance of the universe and God is balance.

reply to post by caballero


Haha, I can't believe how I can agree with two different people with different views, meaning you and NOTur Maybe you are on the different sides of the same coin? Meh, I dunno

Anyway, you once again said very well.

-v

A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF,
AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT,
UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.

God restrains himself. Failure to do things that you feel is logical does not mean that God is lacking in power.
Evil will use its full power without care of who it destroys because destruction is the goal of evil.
Goodness preserves and nurtures and it does so without a heavy hand.

you are absolutlutly right you put into words what I have believed since I was like 3. Why does noone understand that good and evil are the same damn thing. what you call somthing doesnt change what it is. and to deny evil at all is completly wrong as it goes against human nature. the most dedicated saint in the world is just a man so why lable good and evil.

you are right the bible is people with power controlling those who lack it.
unquestioning loyalty, obedience without question, there are so many people on this sight that I can get along with, its like being free of the system and in the real world.

God is perfect.

Man is imperfect.

Any revelation or religious inspiration that imperfect man receives from a perfect God is imperfect. The subjective nature of imperfect man will always taint whatever message may be coming from God. Our perceptions are colored by our current state of mind. So how can any religious text be trusted? It is all tainted.

Furthermore...

A finite being cannot fully comprehend an infinite being. Our limitation to this three-dimensional reality doesn't allow us to perceive beyond ourselves. Hence, we are stuck in a closed system of knowledge that loops upon itself. Our epistemology doesn't allow us to even think beyond our "fallen state."

Therefore, approaching the topic of good and evil based on religious texts is futile. All we really have to deal with such a topic is logic. So....

If we look around us, we see a perfect world whose ecology functions in harmony. It is only man that causes wars and other problems. It is man that is out of synch with God's design.

If God is perfect, then his having anything to do with imperfection would make him imperfect. That would mean such imperfection was created in his image. The fact that we know so little about God is because he cannot directly relate to us. At least not without jeopardizing his perfection status. Considering this then, it is logical that God does not directly communicate with us. Instead, he has relied upon angels or spirits to relay information into our proverbial "thick heads." Hence, our knowledge is imperfect.

As humans develop their minds and knowledge, religions have likewise developed. Consequently, religions continue to become outdated and be replaced by more efficient religions. Clinging to old religious imperfections will only cause us to stay out of synch with the ecology of our spiritual and physical existences. New revelation and new understanding is necessary, if we are ever to learn how to manage this imbalance of evil that dominates man. So discussions like this are good.

(Just talking to myself outloud.)

Debating the existence (or non-existence) of God is foolish.
Attempting to assess, through "human" psychoanalysis, the "personality" of a Being that
transcends time, space, matter, energy, and human life & death is
really foolish.

For the people that DO use the Bible as their source and hope...I say to you this;
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.Isaiah 45:7,8
Come and see the works of God: he is terrible in his doing toward the children of men."
Psalm66:5

If that doesn't say it, I don't know what will. I do not believe in the Christian God however, if he were real, he would be a man. There is too much contradiction, too much manlike qualities about that God.

I have my theories on what God may really be, a theory that makes sense, so far, but I won't get into that. To me, God is very capable of doing "evil" as well as good. He is not one separate being. He is all things. Everything you witness, and everything you cannot comes from God. Like good, evil was created. Evil was not created by a separate entity. When The God gave all life freewill, evil and negative was created. If my recollection is correct, using the Bible as reference(for you people that live by it), Satan was not born evil...but turned this way by choice. By disagreement with God. In a perfect world, all entities could not choose to do evil. God created that ability to choose. Eve chose to sin, Adam chose to be a follower. If I recall, didn't Satan go to God to ask permission to let God test Job? What Job went through, would seem as evil, and God permitted it. For God however, I think things go beyond "good and evil". To him, it is all life. And, as I've said before, I do not think he is a separate being, or the being talked about in the Christian Bible, or any Bible for that matter.