Originally posted by justamomma

Why did he not just make robots then? If doing things my own way and learning from them is so wrong, then why not just take away my free will since having free will technically means I should be FREE to exercise my will w/out fear of punishment.

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Because he wants your ETERNAL soul to abide with Him in paradise to ALWAYS love Him without ever turning against Him like Lucifer did. Just how long did Lucifer serve God before he tried to overthrow God is anyones guess, but I venture to say it was quite a long time.

Again we are faced with the fact that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely...Unless you are God who can handle that absolute power in a very judicious manner.

Lucifer was the #1 angel in Heaven, and was called the covering Cherub. He actually made sure the bright light coming from God was shielded, because apparently it is very powerful, and I'm guessing that a mere human would die from being exposed.

But also, I think the power that was granted Lucifer, which is supernatural or what we would call magic, was too much for a created being to handle. You see, I think God is testing our souls to see if we can handle that kind of power for all eternity. Therefore, if you can remain true to God in this mortal existence, and through the pain and hardships of this test, you will be found worthy to eternally be with Him in Heaven.

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Originally posted by NOTurTypicalBecause true love is freely given, it cannot be programmed. If God created us only to serve him we wouldn't do it out of Love, not out of our free will.

I hope that makes sense.

Let me assure you that I do not see the sense in this AT ALL! How can I give love freely when the consequence of not giving is hell? How is it love when there are attachments to it?

I cannot love a god (or anyone for that matter) that says I give you the choice to do as you will but if you choose wrong according to my morals I will throw you in a lake of fire for all eternity. BLEH!!! I say IF this is the truth, throw me in the Lake of Fire. My love cannot be bought through intimidations and scare tactics. My love is not that cheap.

I find people such as yourself ridiculous when you say we have "free will" and god's love is free. His love, according to you, is anything but free. Anything offered that comes with stipulations REGARDLESS of the stipulations is not free..... this is fact, something the bible lacks.

Use YOUR head people and open your eyes. If you look at this logically, you will see that although the bible paints some beautiful metaphors and holds bits and pieces of wisdom, it WAS altered greatly for the sole purpose of controlling you, not loving you. It is meant to make you conform to ideas and thoughts that are NOT your own and if you don't, it threatens punishment.

That is evil and if god is responsible for this love with moral stipulation message after he created us and made us individuals w/ different interests and desires, a brain to think our own intelligent thoughts, a curiosity and the desire to experience but then also set up a place to throw all of those who go with these things he gave us, then rest assured, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he is a trickster playing an evil game and therefore evil.



[edit on 18-8-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Geemor

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Not true for an omniscient God. Take the garden of Eden for example, Adam and Eve were naked, they were not ashamed of such until they ate the fruit.

What made them ashamed to be naked in public was the "knowledge" of right and wrong from the standpoint of decency.

hmm, ok. but didn't adam and eve firsthandely experienced the evil by going against the will of the god by eating from the tree of knowledge? they couldn't know about good and evil before they had sinned.

Your correct, before they ate they didn't know the difference, yes, there was the God-given ability to disobey the creator by way of free will. But intil that first disobedience happened "evil" had not yet been done by man.

Here is my point: Eve created the first evidence of "evil" when she disobeyed God's command. God didn't created Eve evil, he created her with free will.

"Evil" doesn't exist, same with the term "cold". Cold doesn't exist. Both are the condition that results when their mirror counterpart is gone.

You say Evil is not a *thing* it is the absence of good.
Good is a thing then? A measurable thing?

Please show me a gauge or any type of measuring instrument that can measure my ''goodness'' or absence of goodness.

You might just as well say the opposite, Good is the absence of evil.

At least for "materialistic" things there is a way to measure it:
Thermometer to monitor the vibration of molecules, the absence / reduction of motion.
A scale to measure the amount of riches someone has, the absence / reduction of physical objects.

However If I do something good or evil, where's the factor that I can grasp somehow?

Good and Evil is relative, there is no ''absence'' of good or ''absence'' of evil.

Good and evil is a (balanced) scale, that has been configured by ones own principles / believes, it is not ''fact'' as scientists believe heat or humidity to be.

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Ontopic:
If you can show me a statement from the bible or an authentic document that states that God is *omni*potent, then I will simply agree. There is no use in denying that what something is. If it is everything it is everything regardless.

However I would not advise you to make a topic with a thread title that says:
"If you think"
and then open with the statement.
"God is"

Please back up your argument with the statement from said *religion* (Thus, their books, etc.) where it is mentioned that God is omnipotent.

Your opening statement and your thread title are 2 different things.

ps.: If a being were PURE good, would he not just forgive rather than deal out judgement? (By mainstream view of good and evil.)

[edit on 18/8/08 by -0mega-]

Originally posted by v01i0
Hello once again,

I hate to see how people and religious groups strip their gods from omnipotency by denying evil from the God. It is like stealing 50% of God's properties if he cannot be evil.

What comes to the christianity, many people seem to forget that God as also evil; God created Satan, and when Moses performed miracles in Egypt, many people tend to forget that it was God whom hardened Pharaoh's heart not to let Hebrews leave the slavery.

So then, people still keep asking why does God allow such evil in world? Answer of course is that God is evil (as well as good). Those who deny evil from God are denying God.

So all the religious sects and cults that are promoting the concept of God being only good, are in fact liars and denying the God's omnipotency.

Happy thoughts

-v

There is not one person in this Universe that can prove or say God is Evil. If he was 50% good and 50% evil he would be a schizophrenic. The bible says that in him there is no darkness 1 john 1:5. the Bible also says be ye holy for i am holy 1 peter 1:16 the definition of holiness is: "as one perfect in goodness and righteousness" How can God be against all that is evil if he himself is Evil? Isn't that contradictory? Wouldn't that be hypocrisy? the bible instructs us to "abstain from all appearance of evil" 1 thessalonians 5:22. God can't be good and evil at the same time, he would have to be one or the other. If he is Good and instructs us to be good while on the other hand inciting evil in the world he would be Evil totally. have you heard the expression a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? If God was in any way evil he could not be God. God has to be righteous, just and holy in order to be God.



Keeper



Keeper

You cant just say that cold is JUST absence of heat and evil is absence of good.

It doesnt make any sense to think of it that way that heat exsists and cold doesnt that cold is mearly the absence of heat.

They are two halves of the same whole. You CANNOT have one without the the other therefore they both exsist.

A universe of harmony is stagnant and dead. A universe of chaos is destructive and will destroy itself. SOLUTION a universe of balance of equal chaos and equal harmony makes the universe alive.

0mega-
God was "quoted" saying he is light and dark, alpha and omega (basically chaos and harmony). I dont know where exactly I will try and find it and give you the exact pages.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by caballero]

Good and evil are terms used by man to describe how they feel about something. The force that created the universe is not a man but something far beyond our understanding. People are made to believe, however, that "God" and the "Devil" walk on two legs, speak english and watch every move that everyone in the world makes at all times. So these power hungry control freaks just dropped an "O" in good and added a "D" to evil to keep all the sheep of the world in constant fear for their souls (Oh, and to make a insane amounts of money and control the world) The choice is yours: good, evil, ignorance. Have a wonderful day.

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalWell, I'm doing my best to explain, and I'll try until you do understand. You don't give your love "for fear of going to hell". Love isn't born out of fear. I love God for the sacrifice he made to redeem me from eternal damnation. is it a damnation I deserve? Yes, the first time I sinned, or did evil I was unjust in God's eyes to enter heaven, that was Satan's goal in the garden of Eden. No one can love God out of fear of hell, one loves God out of astonishment that he would bear my punishment for me. That's true love!!!

I appreciate the attempt to make me understand, but having spent the better part of my first 25 years drenched in the christian religion, if I don't understand by now, it is pretty safe to say that I will never understand.

But, sure, go ahead and do your best. I will try to help *you* understand that you are not using logic to base your beliefs in. Fair enough.

1. You say I am not supposed to love god because I am in fear of eternal damnation, but if I exercise my right to choose and choose NOT to love god bc I find the whole set up to be spiteful and mean, where will I end up for all eternity?

2. You say "I love God for the sacrifice he made to redeem me from eternal damnation"..... my question is, if god had decided to not redeem us and we all ended up in hell which is apparently what we deserve, would you still love god or is your love for him based on that stipulation, being that he did redeem us?

3. "Yes, the first time I sinned, or did evil I was unjust in God's eyes to enter heaven" My question to this is at what point did you actually sin to the point that it cut you off from god? What exactly was this detestable act that cut you off from his highness? Did he tell you that he no longer could associate with you because of this offense? If yes, what did he say? and if no, how did you beome aware that you were morally unfit to be in his presence?

4. "one loves God out of astonishment that he would bear my punishment for me" Again, so if he hadn't taken your place in the punishment you admit you deserved in the first place, would he still have your love and devotion? Answer honestly bc god doesn't like liars.

Why not? When you get a drivers license you agree to abide by the rules of the road or you risk losing your license, or worse, going to jail. Love towards God should be utter amazement that he'd put himself in our place and die a death we should have died for our sins. I myself can never say "thank you" enough for that act of love.

Why not?? haha because I have seen more mature behaviour from my children than that which is portrayed by the god you worship.

Citing that not carrying a driver's lisence as an example is actually great, but more for my point than yours.

I am not a better driver because I have a driver's license on my person and in the same regard, I am not a worse driver if I don't have it on my person. The driver's lisence is simply used to identify me and subject me to rules and regulations that are forced on me by those who make the laws.

To be thrown in jail or have my right to drive be taken away simply bc I am not carrying an identity card that has nothing to do with me being a good or bad driver is retarded at best. Not having my card on me because I may have been in a rush and forgot to grab it off the desk where I had it out to use to fill out documents doesn't make me worthy of jail or losing my right to drive.

The only reason I either of those ridiculous consequences can happen is because man made the law....... which was a ridiculous law.

To paraphrase: My driver's lisence does NOT MAKE me a good or bad driver and therefore is a ridiculous thing to be punished for not having.

In the same light, citing that Jesus is your savior and pass out of hell is the equivelent of the driver's lisence. Supposedly god will ask if you believed jesus was your saviour and if you say no, you will be cast into utter darkness.

Having jesus on your person should have no bearing on whether you were a good or evil person. Not having jesus in your life doesn't make you necessarily evil other than the fact that it has been defined as evil (apparently by god?).

I am no less good and no more evil if I don't claim to believe bc I have a lack of real evidence that jesus is god. My attempts to live my life responsibly, fairly, honestly, and happily are not going to change whether I believe jesus was god or not.

And apparently this doesn't matter to god. Because I didn't trust what I had been told to trust BY OTHER MEN, I still deserve punishment. Hmmm... sounds an awful lot like the kind of laws man creates rather than a loving god.


And as far as the saying thank you crap...... in essence you are saying:

"O mighty god, thank you for letting me born to a world of experience where I inevitably was going to make a mistake before learning why not to make that mistake again. Thank you for committing suicide (in a round about way... that's what it was) on my behalf to save me from the hell you created for me bc you knew before you allowed me to be born that I would be inexperienced and make a mistake that you have defined as a sin and worthy of punishment bc, well, just because you did. I am blessed to have such a wise god running the show." Give me a *snippin* break Surely, if we are going to claim a god we can make him a tad bit wiser and smarter could we not?

We do have free will, you asked yourself why we were not created "robots". It's your choice if you want to be redeemed. Take it or leave it. And God must punish people for refusing to accept payment out of free will for their sins. If he didn't he would not be a just God. He'd be very corrupt like Satan.

What if I choose to not want to choose? Why is that not an option? I mean, here I was a baby and innocent and nothing other than my experiences at the moment mattered. Next thing you know *poof* somewhere along the line as a child, I screwed up according to god which is according to those who follow this god.

I don't remember what it was I did that seperated me, but it must have been pretty damn bad to earn me a place in hell. Wasn't murder though; or fornication (referring to THE sin that cut me off from him); could have been the time that I stole a piece of gum from the store, but surely THAT act didn't cut me off bc I only became "aware" that it was wrong when my mother scolded me and made me return it... before that, it was just that I saw the gum, wanted it, and didn't realize there was a system to follow... but I learned my lesson from that. Was that it? was that the big crime that cut me off?

What the hell is the point of experiencing and learning if I can't experience without worrying whether I am gonna piss off god? I have more wisdom from the experiences I have been through and the mistakes I have made than I would have had I just done what it was I was told to do by the preacher and teachers in church.

So if I have to choose btw doing what I am told but not really learning and just living my life and being aware of the experiences and actually learning how and why to be a better person, I choose the 2nd. If that gets me a spot in hell, that is a chance that I am willing to take bc I don't trust a god anyway that would throw me in hell for not taking the first option.

That's a straw man argument, God's commandments are for our protection, they DO NOT "control" us, we have free will to obey or not to obey. I've stated numerous times that if every man woman and child obeyed God's commandment the world would be a perfect place. The fact that this world is NOT a perfect place is because we humans do things contrary to God's perfect law.

Everyone's opinion that differs from yours is a straw man theory. What do you think god and jesus as god are? duh....

You can't prove either but you state without reserve that if I don't believe in him and his son than I am cut off from him, yet you can't prove that he exists (saying proof is relative is not proof btw) beyond the words in the bible, yet if I don't believe I am WORTHY of a place in hell that you can't......AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! Do you not see how ridiculous you sound saying that I am using a straw man arguement in light of YOUR arguement??

You go round and round this proverbial revolving door of "follow commandments of god" .... "proof is relative" ..... "if you don't believe you are cut off"...... "the bible is my proof"

I have been where you are dude and I wouldn't go back for the world. The reason you feel the need to convince others is because deep down inside, you aren't so convinced yourself. If you were, there would be no more need to study and search and study and search.

You say things like "proof is relative" but you have to believe. Well, if the proof isn't relative to me despite my earnest desire to know, who's fault is that and why do I have to pay a punishment for this lack of relative proof. It makes NO sense and it sounds like the laws of man. I can hardly believe that an intellectual person REALLY believes this load of crap and am betting deep down, you have questions about it all that surface when you aren't carefully and persistently pushing them back down like a good little christian would.





[edit on 19-8-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalUmmm, Satan tricked Eve into eating the fruit that gave us those desires. God commanded them not to eat the fruit that would give them the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to hate someone for that, hate the one responsible: Satan.

Alright, I'll play along as though there was proof of two ppl who were the first to exist in a garden where they walked and talked with god and had magical animals that talked and magical trees that could affect not only their whole existence but the existence of mankind.

Let me put my bib on first though cuz I don't want my shirt getting drenched with my drool.

So *adjusts bib* first of all, I am gonna place my self into eve's mind. Adam comes to me and says "hey, just thought you should know that god said not to eat of the tree over there.. the one with the very tempting fruit of it."

me: "uhm, did you ask god why?"

Adam: "well, no.. he said don't and so I am informing you."

me: "well, Adam, that is an awfully strange request don't you think? Would you mind taking me to god so that I can ask him why myself? I don't mind complying with the command I guess, but I would at least like to have a reason so if I am ever tempted I can just remember the why"

Adam: "oh wait, he said something.. yeah, that's right. He said don't eat lest we will surely die."

me: "what's die?"

Adam: *shrugs* "I don't know eve, wanna go screw for a bit?"

me: "sure"

YEARS LATER I am sitting in my favorite spot not far from the tree that I was forbidden to eat from when suddenly a magical serpent *walks* up to me and says "pssst hey babe. whatcha doing."

Being a woman I feel flattered considering Adam has been gone spending a lot of time with god and I am feeling a bit like I am on the back burner, although I love him and respect him.

Me: Not really much of anything. Just sitting here and thinking.

Magical Serpent: 'Bout what

Me: stuff

Magical Serpent: Hey, see that tree over there, Ms. Thang?

Me: uh-huh.. Adam said not to eat of that tree cuz god said we would die.

Magical Serpent: Why would you die?

Me: I don't know. He wouldn't tell me. I don't think he really even knows. god just said don't eat of it. It is a strange thing to say "don't eat from this ONE tree in the garden or you will die." I don't even know what die is? Is it something bad cuz they won't tell me?

Magical Serpent: oh, well I can't explain death to you because I am unsure myself. sorry. But I bet that you were just told you would die to scare you away from it. I have heard some great things happen when eat of that delicious fruit.. You should try it and see for yourself.

Me: Oh no! I couldn't do that. They said not to (keep in mind eve is THE ESSENCE of innocence and naiveness).

Magical Serpent: Why can't you do it? Where are they right now anyway?

Me: Well, I can't do it because they said not to. Not sure, they have been spending a lot of time walking and talking in the garden. *sighs*

Magical Serpent: Come here *picks a fruit off the tree and offers it to eve*

Me: *hesitates* I am kind of curious what it would taste like. Gah, I wish they would have explained what die is and why it would happen if I bit from this delicious looking fruit.

Magical Serpent: Why don't you go and ask them now?

Me: oh no. They don't like me to disturb them. I am too curious and annoying ..... at least that is the impression I get about what god thinks of me.

Magical Serpent: There is nothing wrong with that. You are created to appreciate, experience, and enjoy. Why don't you take a bite and find out. You won't die.... whatever that means. Even if you do, it must be a great thing considering god doesn't want to share it with you. I bet it even makes you like god and he is a spoiled brat who likes to be the be all end all on authority.

Me: I don't think god is like that. He loves us.

Magical Serpent: Are you sure about that? Who does he spend all of his time with eve? You even said that you get the impression he is annoyed by you. Why won't he answer your questions about die? If it is really bad, he would have told you because he loved you and would want to ensure for your safety that you did not eat the fruit by arming you with knowledge. But he didn't did he? He wants you to obey but refuses to answer your question.

Me: That is...... true. *takes the fruit from his hand (assuming it was magical enough to have hands) and polishes it with her finger while admiring how yummy it looks*

Magical Serpent: You want to know don't you?

Me: Well, honestly, how could I not? I asked Adam to let me ask god what die is but he basically just shrugged me off and I haven't really been able to pass this way without wondering what die is and why I can't eat of this fruit that looks to be the yummiest fruit of the whole garden.

Magical Serpent: Take a bite

Me: *rubs fruit on lips and notices something exciting in it* (and if this were me, considering my curiousity gets the better of me.... *bites*

of course she likes it and has to share it with her man.

fast forward to god giving out the punishments...... Why? What was the point of this?

Just to know that he was loved? Her sin was not eating the fruit.. her sin was going against a vague command given to her by god via her husband. No explanations were given according to the bible. Just don't and she did because it was in her nature to be curious.

A "sin" would not have occured if god hadn't made it a sin by placing the temptation in their midst, making them curious by the drawing of attention to the tree and its fruit and then telling them "no", and/or making the command period. God, according to the bible, set up the fall in the most perfect manner he could.

Trust me.... I have two kids and I know that if I want them to stay away from something, the last thing I am going to do is draw their attention to it in a negative way. Doing that almost insures that their curiosity will get the better of them and they will wait for the opportunity to sieze a moment for feeding their curiosity.

Now, I HAVE deliberately set something up and told them not to touch it knowing the results so that I could teach them through experience. But there is no ultimate punishment of banishment ever imposed during the time of training. I can see this as being a smart approach by a god..... but that apparently is not the approach as told in the bible.

One chance and if broken *bam* ultimate punishment is imposed. And this is god we are talking about. Like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you put a curious innocent in front of something tempting and tell them "no touchie" they are most assuredly gonna touch UNLESS they have previous experience (meaning an non innocent would understand). You really think god was that stupid to have set up their fall and not even realize he had done so?? Are you telling me that I am smarter than god?

If you answer "no" to my last question, then god knew that he was setting up the fall, and if there is an ultimate punishment for it that can only be excused if we believe in a man who was really god, lived thousands of years prior to us and is our saviour from punishment for experiencing, and if we conform our lives to the mold set out (not even by this man jesus) in a book that's based on mens testimony and according to them is supposedly inspired by god........... rest assured, if all this is true then this god is evil and not to be trusted. Men deal with other men more fairly then that and the ones that do deal in this same way, even most christians will refer to as the "evil elite".

consistency and logic can go a lot further in saving your soul than buying what you are told to buy.

I think that if we are made in the image of God, then God must have good and evil as we do. It's highly likely that cutting off Angel Lucifer [as in historical text EDIT] has dichotomised our feelings of evil that we need to cut away from and that is sad. Evil is lust, gluttony etc, but they are part of us, not something to be hidden from. I eat like a pig sometimes and that is gluttony, it's also fun. We need to understand all our emotions, earthy or ethereal, in tandem, not broken apart and come to balanced judgements in relation to ourselves and the environment around us.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by redled]