If you think that God is omnipotent, then do not deny evil from it!, page 2

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reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 11:43 AM by v01i0

reply to post by NOTurTypical

As Zerbot pointed out:

Originally posted by zerbot565

i fail to see the logic in that strawman agrument,
or you fail to use formula correctly.

Yeah, I fail to see also what it has to do with this specific matter?

reply to post by runetang

Very comprehensive post Runetang. I'd say that in my opinion you almost said it right, but I would personally talk about "freedom of choice", not "free will". But meh, that's really a minor difference in this specific conversation.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:24 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Geemor
if god created everything so he thence created evil as well, and therefore evil is part of him.

Originally posted by Clearskies

Pharaoh would NOT let the Hebrews go and eventually God let him have his own way, without conscience! He didn't MAKE him do it, He just took away his feeling of guilt in his heart!

oh no? you should read the bibble. in first or second book of moses, it specifically says that god did harden the heart of pharao so that he didn't listen moses. it clearly stands there in black and white!

Exodus 4:21

God didn't "create evil", evil is the natural byproduct of good. Without evil to contrast against the goodness of God, then God wouldn't be good.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:27 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
... Logically speaking God could NOT be pure good unless there was evil to judge or contrast his goodness to. ...

Actually, that is ILLOGIC speaking.

The bible tells you that there will come a time when there will be NO evil, no rebellion, sickness, death, etc. There will come a time when God says he will answer his people's prayers before they have even finished asking.

Illogical for human comprehension yes, I admit I can't comprehend such a thing myself. I also freely adimit that I'm not an omniscient being as God is.

Just because we have no ability to comprehend such a thing doesn't mean it's not there/true.

When you were a child you couldn't comprehend physics, did that mean the laws of physics didn't apply to you?

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:31 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Geemor

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

No my friend God isn't evil, God is pure Good. You actually mean to say that God is "Omniscient", meaning he has the knowledge of Good and evil.

...

The fruit from that tree once eaten wasn't evil fruit, it was the tree of the "KNOWLEDGE of good and evil".

hmm, but without experience there cannot be knowledge? so you have to experience evil before having knowledge about it or how do you consider you'll gain knowledge a priori in this, or any matter?

actually, you have to be evil in order to experience it, in order to have comphrehensive knowledge about it.

Not true for an omniscient God. Take the garden of Eden for example, Adam and Eve were naked, they were not ashamed of such until they ate the fruit.

What made them ashamed to be naked in public was the "knowledge" of right and wrong from the standpoint of decency.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:33 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalWhat would you think of a judge who arbitrarily decided who he would send to jail who were convicted of murder?

What would you call such a judge? Corrupt, unjust?

Exact same with God, he gave us his commandments, when we choose to ignore them or do things our own way anyways then he has to render punishment or else he wouldn't be just, he would be a corrupt judge.

Why did he not just make robots then? If doing things my own way and learning from them is so wrong, then why not just take away my free will since having free will technically means I should be FREE to exercise my will w/out fear of punishment.

Because true love is freely given, it cannot be programmed. If God created us only to serve him we wouldn't do it out of Love, not out of our free will.

I hope that makes sense.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:36 PM by caballero

reply to post by v01i0

Im so glad you bring this up. I have felt the very same way. God even said it "himself" he said he was light and dark alpha and omega, good and bad, chaos and peace.

Religious nuts only hear what they want to hear. Nothing else sadly the world would be a far better place if they didnt have to ruin it with their pure white light god.

Thats why god understands that we will sin becuase we like him are good and evil, but we are more naive in good and evils understandings. Like god would know it would be better to kill 100 and save 1000. We would try to save them all (most likely) and you cant do that it messes up the balance. God is all about balance.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:37 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by zerbot565

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

No, that is a "straw man argument", it's logical promiscuity. What the OP did was create a false version of God and shot down that false version he created.

It's a logical fallacy:

i fail to see the logic in that strawman agrument,
or you fail to use formula correctly.

if god is everything he surly must be evil to
heck for god to be omnipotent he to must know how to get lost,
how to kill without feeling regret and even be able deny him/her-self,

denile in what god can do or be is actual blasphemy

I can't address why you fail to understand, bu I can try and present his fallacy a different way.

He concocted an attribute about God that is not spoken of in scripture, then attempts to "prove" that God is false not by what the scriptures say themselves, but by his false version he created.

Position "A" is what God says he is. He states God actually is position "Y", then goes directly to prove that God "Y" is invalid, even though God never presented himself as position "Y". The OP created that position himself.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:39 PM by v01i0

Nevermind.

Mods can delete this post. Thank you!

[edit on 18-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:40 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Geemor

Clearly that is the point of religion; to not think about things for yourself. To adopt the "moral" standard of someone else and to impose it on others. Perfect set up for disaster if you ask me, which goes to show.... god is evil

Absolutely false, stop and imagine a world where every man woman and child followed all commandments to a T.

That would be a perfect society. And that is the society God created "Eden". Satan corrupted it, not God.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:41 PM by caballero

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Why do you say that? the OP is saying that god is good and evil, and so far I havent seen him change his stance on that?

You and that other guy are misunderstanding the OP and the logical fallacy you both have failed explaining.

It was god who created Lucifer God made him a beautiful angel with musical abilities that even god envied, god also made lucifer envious and spiteful. Whichever route you go god created evil.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by caballero]

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:42 PM by Matrix1111

reply to post by v01i0

I understand what you're saying. If God knew the outcome of his creation would result in evil being able to come into existence, why did he go ahead with the implimentation of that design? That's essentially the question. And if he did anticipate the outcome, isn't he responsible for evil existing?

It's a tough question to ask. But a very relevant one. Kudos for bringing it up. It could be the biggest conspiracty of them all.

[edit on 8/18/2008 by Matrix1111]

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:44 PM by NOTurTypical

reply to post by v01i0

I didn't mean to imply Exodus 4:21 said that, I should have quoted the person I was answering. He said something to the effect "The first or second book of Moses it talks about God hardening Pharaoh's heart".

I was posting the exact verse where it discusses such. My bad for not quoting his statement first.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:47 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by caballero
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Why do you say that? the OP is saying that god is good and evil, and so far I havent seen him change his stance on that?

You and that other guy are misunderstanding the OP and the logical fallacy you both have failed explaining.

It was god who created Lucifer God made him a beautiful angel with musical abilities that even god envied, god also made lucifer envious and spiteful. Whichever route you go god created evil.

Let me ask you a Q put another way okay?

Does "cold" exist?

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:48 PM by v01i0

reply to post by caballero

I am glad that this thread found resonance in you too. I find some portions of your post very interesting, especially the part that God understood we would sin, as we are like him. "As above, so below", "We create man as our image", you know, that explained a lot to me, thanks! Let me borrow your words to answer NOTurtypical:

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by caballero
God even said it "himself" he said he was light and dark alpha and omega, good and bad, chaos and peace.

I hope you can understand this.

Sincerely,

-v

PS.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by v01i0

I didn't mean to imply Exodus 4:21 said that, I should have quoted the person I was answering. He said something to the effect "The first or second book of Moses it talks about God hardening Pharaoh's heart".

I was posting the exact verse where it discusses such. My bad for not quoting his statement first.

OK, no worries. Sorry for bringing it up then.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:51 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by caballero

I am glad that this thread found resonance in you too. Let me borrow your words to answer NOTurtypical:

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by caballero
God even said it "himself" he said he was light and dark alpha and omega, good and bad, chaos and peace.

I hope you can understand this.

Sincerely,

-v

But you guys have the misunderstanding, "evil" doesn't exist, it's the absence of "good". Or the opposite of good. Good exists, God is pure good. When a creature of free will acts not in accordance with the goodness of God that is where "evil" is birthed.

Evil is not a "thing", like the goodness of God is. "Evil" is the absence of the good of God.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:52 PM by NOTurTypical

This is a relevant question to this discussion guys and I'll ask it to you all:

"Does "cold" exist?"

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 01:55 PM by v01i0

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Cold? My answer is yes and no. It is reality for the observer, but in the end, it is merely a viewpoint regarding temperature.

By the way, you are claming that evil does not exist and it is only lack of good. I am getting confused here. Of course I understand what you are saying, but I find it confusing that seeing all the evil in the world, and it is so much spoken about. And how can something not exist by lacking of it's opposite. I am really getting confused here

Sincerely,

-v

[edit on 18-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 02:04 PM by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by NOTurTypical

Cold? My answer is yes and no. It is reality for the observer, but in the end, it is merely a viewpoint regarding temperature.

By the way, you are claming that evil does not exist and it is only lack of good. I am getting confused here. Of course I understand what you are saying, but I find it confusing that seeing all the evil in the world, and it is so much spoken about. And how can something not exist by lacking of it's opposite. I am really getting confused here

Sincerely,

-v

You're on the right path! "Cold" as a thing doesn't exist. We call the absence of HEAT "cold". Same with "evil", it doesn't exist, it is what God and we call the absence of good.

God is good, and he created us with the ability to do as He tells us or not to, when we don't then we ourselves "create" evil. God didn't, we did. God didn't make Eve eat the forbidden fruit, she chose to.

Every single time "evil" is done on Earth it is because someone did an action opposite of what God has commanded. We, you and I, create evil, not God.

Do you understand? God isn't evil, God is pure good, God is pure justness, the actions we do contrary to that goodness or justness is the precise moment evil is "born".

Just like "cold", it is created when heat is removed.

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 02:19 PM by v01i0

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Are you saying that God didn't create evil, but instead evil is somekind of by-product of it's creation?

I can respect your opinion of evil being lack of good, but personally I don't view it as such. I think that the "God" is creator of everything. Every "creature", by which I mean both flora and fauna, in short everything. And by "God" I mean no personality, no single specified "creature", but rather a "law" or "will" of the everything that exists!

Anyway, in general I appreciate your contribution in this matter.

Sincerely,

-v

reply posted on 18-8-2008 @ 02:26 PM by Geemor

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Not true for an omniscient God. Take the garden of Eden for example, Adam and Eve were naked, they were not ashamed of such until they ate the fruit.

What made them ashamed to be naked in public was the "knowledge" of right and wrong from the standpoint of decency.

hmm, ok. but didn't adam and eve firsthandely experienced the evil by going against the will of the god by eating from the tree of knowledge? they couldn't know about good and evil before they had sinned.

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