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McCain vs Obama on the Space Programs

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posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 01:06 AM
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Barack Obama





Since 1981, the Space Shuttle has been NASA's workhorse. Its retirement will leave NASA without human spaceflight capability until the first elements of the Constellation program are operational, some five years later. This gap between the retirement of the Space Shuttle and the entry into service of its replacement is a serious concern. Barack Obama is committed to making the necessary investments to ensure we close this gap as much as is technically feasible and to minimize reliance on foreign space capabilities. He also will work with the space industry to ensure retention of workforce and technical capabilities during the transition from the shuttle to its successor.

* Retaining Options for Additional Shuttle Flights: Barack Obama supports Congressional efforts to add at least one additional Space Shuttle flight to fly a valuable mission and to keep the workforce engaged. He will work to ensure there is adequate funding to support that additional flight so that it does not interfere with developing the Shuttle's successor.

* Speeding the Next-Generation Vehicle: Obama will expedite the development of the Shuttle's successor systems for carrying Americans to space so we can minimize the gap. This will be difficult; underfunding by the Bush administration has left NASA with limited flexibility to accelerate the development of the new systems.

* Using the Private Sector: Obama will stimulate efforts within the private sector to develop and demonstrate spaceflight capabilities. NASA's Commercial Orbital Transportation Services is a good model of government/industry collaboration.

* Working with International Allies: Obama will enlist international partners to provide International Space Station (ISS) cargo re-supply and eventually alternate means for sending crews to the ISS...[truncated]

Source



My Take: I see Obama taking his typical "find the source of the problem and fix it" approach to the NASA problem. NASA, for years, as been patched like an old bicycle tire. Barack Obama wants to expand the horizons of NASA to the regions beyond our vision in space.

These truly are exciting times. We have a candidate for president that takes space, seemingly, as anxiously as we do.


















Obama vows to find $2billion dollars for NASA funding




In a nutshell, the comprehensive policy released on Saturday backs plans to go to the moon by 2020, supports both human and robotic missions, calls for at least one additional shuttle flight and increased international cooperation in space.

“Barack Obama is proposing a robust plan for that kind of exploration and for research,” said Glenn, who was the first American to orbit the Earth. “I'm looking forward to working very closely with Barack Obama after he's President.”.....[truncated]
source



My Take: Obama isnt all talk. He gives us his ideals in the first link, and then in this one he's talking about he'll pay for it. He takes the atypical approach to it. His approach differs in the sense that he searches for new ways of paying for the things he talks about doing. Very refreshing indeed.




Obama supports fast track to space




Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama supports the plan developed by the Bush administration to send U.S. astronauts back to the moon by 2020 and on to Mars after that.

But he also expresses "serious concern" that the United States might go five years without being able to send anyone to space on its own, because space shuttles are scheduled to stop flying after 2010, and a replacement spacecraft will not yet be finished....[truncated]

Source


My Take: Obama is further defining his approach by taking specificity in the NASA space shuttle. 5 years of sending nobody into space is a long long time. Its time to act now, and ensure our continued leadership and innovation in the regions of space.










Barack Obama's space campaign in a nutshell


(my words):

Today's world of politics has become very black and white. Few gray area's exist anymore, because of vehement and zealous approaches to issues by partisan parties not based on relevance or impact, but based on overall party standings themselves. Very unproductive. It does not take a free-will thinker to agree with the leader and be a political "yes" man.

Barack Obama is pushing through that red-tape. He is showing us what a man with dreams can do. To quote Mr. Obama himself





When I was growing up, NASA united Americans to a common purpose and inspired the world with accomplishments we are still proud of. Today, NASA is an organization that impacts many facets of American life.

I believe NASA needs an inspirational vision for the 21st Century. My vision will build on the great goals set forth in recent years, to maintain a robust program of human space exploration and ensure the fulfillment of NASA's mission.

Together, we can ensure that NASA again reflects all that is best about our country and continue our nation's preeminence in space.
- Barack Obama

Source


That last line from Mr. Obama about how NASA will reflect the greatness of our country, I believe, solidifies the nutshell of Barack Obama's space program policies. America can prove its greatness not with the barrel of a gun, or with the size of a bomb. But with the extent of our reaches into space.

Something that we used to excel at, but sadly, as a nation, fell away from. Barack Obama takes a noble, intelligent, and (keyword) responsible approach to the space program by showing how we will excel once again - and also showing how we will begin to pay for it.

If NASA can take stunning pictures from Mars including samples of the planets soil, and find ice, all without any sort of abundant government funding - imagine what they could do with more?

Barack Obama offers us that possibility to explore.



(John McCain next)

[edit on 8/18/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]




posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 01:32 AM
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John McCain




As President, John McCain will -

* Ensure that space exploration is top priority and that the U.S. remains a leader;

* Commit to funding the NASA Constellation program to ensure it has the resources it needs to begin a new era of human space exploration.

* Review and explore all options to ensure U.S. access to space by minimizing the gap between the termination of the Space Shuttle and the availability of its replacement vehicle;

* Ensure the national space workforce is maintained and fully utilized; Complete construction of the ISS National Laboratory;

* Seek to maximize the research capability and commercialization possibilities of the ISS National Laboratory;

* Maintain infrastructure investments in Earth-monitoring satellites and support systems;

* Seek to maintain the nation's space infrastructure;

* Prevent wasteful earmarks from diverting precious resources from critical scientific research;

* and Ensure adequate investments in aeronautics research.

Source

Now im not suggesting that McCain will not do something for the space program. Certainly to disassemble it all together would be political suicide. But, before we go forward, i want to dissect this list that McCains campaign provided. I feel there are some points to be made that would show a lack of enthusiasm from McCain on this issue that i am so 100% enthusiastic about.


1.) Ensure that space exploration is top priority and that the U.S. remains a leader



I have two problems with this statement: McCain promises to ensure space exploration is top priority . Sounds good at face value. But where does McCains "top priority" really lie?

Is it with the space program? As this list provided suggests.

Is it with Osama Bin Laden as many of his speeches suggest. (visit link for reference)

Is it Immigration Reform ?

It seems as though senator McCain has his priorities mixed up. That or he just speaks to his audience, changing the subject to meet the agenda.

Either way - I, personally, need clarification from Mr. McCain.


The second problem i find with that first statement: John McCain says we should ensure that America remains A leader. Not THE leader.

Could it be that both of the problems i have on this one statement are just a mix-up of words? Possible. But he has issued no retractions yet....





McCain’s space policy in a nutshell



(my words):

I see absolutely no specificity in John McCains space program policies. I see a lot of vague talking points that have no real solutions attached with them.

Simply saying "lets fund NASA" doesnt really encompass a reasonable and respectable answer, in my opinion.





On the issue of space, i feel as though John McCain doesnt take it as seriously as most of us would like, if seriously at all.

His answers are what i would consider vague. Vague answers usually means ignorance of a topic, or complete disregard for importance.


[edit on 8/18/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 05:54 AM
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Regardless of whom we get, I think our space program will benefit.

The space program is highly important to the survival of our country. So many important, great inventions have come from it.

It's crucial that we do not let other countries surpass us (they already have) in the long term.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 06:18 AM
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This thread is funny, because we all know Obama wants to cut manned space flight. So Andrew posts this to head that off and distract people from the truth. Nice try Andrew!

Anyone here can go Google Obama manned space flight and see his statements on it. He wants to cut funding for it to use on education. As if throwing money at schools makes education better....


[edit on 18-8-2008 by Dronetek]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 09:44 AM
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What are you smearing now, dronetek?

I'd love to see a recent article showing quotes or policies of Obama that states exactly your claim.

You wouldn't be falsifying information and trying to pass it off as the truth of a candidate, now, would you?



As president, Barack Obama will establish a robust and balanced civilian space program. His NASA not only will inspire the world with both human and robotic space exploration, but also will again lead in confronting the challenges we face here on Earth, including global climate change, energy independence, and aeronautics research. In achieving this vision, Obama will reach out to include international partners and to engage the private sector to amplify NASA's reach. Obama believes that a revitalized NASA can help America maintain its innovation edge and contribute to American economic growth


Source: From his official policy on space exploration (which also happens to be the link provided in the OP...had you bothered to actually read it.


I took the liberty of bolding the relevant issues to point you in the right direction - since you seem to have an inability to figure it out on your own.

Here is the more direct part of the policy


His NASA not only will inspire the world with both human and robotic space exploration, but also will again lead in confronting the challenges we face here on Earth, including global climate change, energy independence, and aeronautics research


So i ask again - why are you smearing lies in the form of information about a candidate?


[edit on 8/18/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 09:47 AM
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Its not a smear, its the position he previously took. Much like most of his positions, he seems to have changed it recently.


www.universetoday.com...

Over the weekend, Democratic senator Barack Obama made a public statement during his presidential campaign trail in Titusville, Florida. Whilst responding to a question about oceanic research, Obama elaborated on his plans for the future of NASA. Previously, there have been hints that a possible Obama Presidency would see a reduction in space funding in favour of a boost in education spending.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by Dronetek
 



Its not a smear, its the position he previously took. Much like most of his positions, he seems to have changed it recently.


This is a lie. He never took a previous position that said NASA had to suffer funding CUTS. I await your proof, else you are a liar.



Previously, there have been hints that a possible Obama Presidency would see a reduction in space funding in favour of a boost in education spending.
from the source you provided, dronetek


There had been hints that a possible obama presidence would see a reduction in space funding.


Hints.

So, it was never an official policy....your theory rests on the interpretations of someone else when they listened to Obama.

The funniest thing about political interpretations, is that they are 100% biased to the listeners political point of view.

You hear what you want to hear.

In his official policy - he lays out what you neglect to acknowledge.

Your statement is false, because there was never anything said by Mr. Obama that remotely suggests your claim.

That is called a smear.

Please refer to This thread . It may not be official ATS policy. But your cooperation sure would be appreciated.



[edit on 8/18/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 8/18/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 09:57 AM
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Not to put a damper on your views, but it appears to me you are reading what you wish to see rather than reality.
From me both offer about the same amount of empty promises.
NASA was outsourced...



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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And that is your opinion - and it is welcome as well


If i may ask though - and i do not mean this condescendingly...


What sort of action and/or rhetoric would you like to see from a politician?

When campaigning for President, would you not agree that you would lay out all of your big ideas.

The President has much more authority than a single senator.

So in order to pass bills, would it not be best to be president and have one voice, than opposed to being a senator and being part of a partisan split where your voice gets muffled?

Im just curious


I agree that a lot of times politicians are full of empty promises and will say whatever it takes to get into office.

But i would add this - as it relates to the space program.

Space is not a main stream issue. The general public doesnt give a damn, and so i believe that "blowing some smoke" up the American public john brown hind quarters isnt a tactic.

Some politicians actually do have a plan....with intentions of carrying it through. We see it happen every day.

Politicians have a bad name, no doubt, and for good reason. But there are still good things that come from them.

I see Obama's space program policy as one of those good things.

Despite what others will twist, distort, and lie about to say otherwise concerning his policy - this is his official stance.

Again - if you think its empty - totally your opinion, and you're graciously entitled to it


I just ask you to read it again.
It'll take a president interested in space, if we are to make any progress there.



[edit on 8/18/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin
 


{quote] So in order to pass bills, would it not be best to be president and have one voice, than opposed to being a senator and being part of a partisan split where your voice gets muffled?

If as a Senator, you cannot convince your colleagues to pass bills to fix this country, how do you expect to convince them as President?

It is all about leadership. Leadership includes the ability to convince and persuade people to do what is right. Leadership neither candidate has shown since they started running for President.

As far as the space program, you really will just have to wait and see what happens. their plans are a bunch of I want to but when the financial reality hits the fan their plans will become I wanted to...but...we didn't have enough money to pay for all our programs.



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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I agree. It is about leadership

But you have more power, much more power, as a president than you do as a single voice in the senate.

The senate as a collective, equals out the president. In most cases.

Thats the point im trying to draw.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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It seems space is truly where no man has gone before

i have to beg the question

Why is mccain cheating at the Q&A and the DNC using an upside down flag a much more important "issue" than the candidates ideals for the space program?


McCain & Obama - both laid out - right there in the first two posts of this thread.....and nobody in ALL of ATS wants to talk about it ??


I'm sure its just because it got buried on page 1....so perhaps this will bring it to someone's attention.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 08:14 PM
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You need only read the opinions of NASA Employees after McCain's speech. The amount of enthusiasm which McCains speech generated was unprecidented. The NASA folks became more enthusiastic than than have been heard to be for a good number of years.

Unfortunately it was not enthusiasm for McCain. They came away with a sudden motivation to support Obama. Nuff Said!

Personally I think NASA needs to be cut up and undergo a complete reorganization from the top down. The scientists are great. The mangement sucks meloncholy like a weasle sucks eggs.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 01:04 AM
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There's an interesting bit here
about how Obama reversed his campaign stance at an appearance at Titusville ,Fl. Apparently, he originally wanted to delay the Constellation program by five years in order to pay for his early education program.

Personally, I don't think either senator would give NASA the funding it needs. Why? Because the US is broke, the Iraq war will likely cost upwards of $1Trillion dollars. The money to pay for this needs to come from somewhere and borrowing more money from China is not an option.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by Cthulwho
 


right now im having severe issues with .pdf and Firefox

im beginning to absolutely HATE Firefox...

but if you look up Obama's Plan For Lifetime Success Through Education, and go to the last page, you will see that he planned on funding the program with $500 million.

You'll find this


The passage of relevance here: “The early education plan will be paid for by delaying the NASA Constellation Program for five years,” among other steps. According to MSNBC, Obama would leave in place $500 million/year for Constellation’s “manufacturing and technology base”, but would otherwise transfer the funding to the education effort. None of the campaign’s official statements or other media reports indicate any alternative measures the campaign would take to address what, on its face, would appear to be a five-year delay in the introduction of Ares 1, Orion, and the other main components of NASA’s current exploration architecture.
source

special emphasis on "leave in place $500 million/year"
thats under the old plan, of which you speak.......






Under the current administration - funding is so low that there is a current 5 year gap in the plan for constellation source



in fact - CURRENTLY - funding for the constellation program is LESS than in Obama's original plan


- The Senate Appropriations Committee has drafted a 2009 spending bill that would give the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) $17.8 billion next year (see Table), an increase of $635 million or 3.7 percent, with the entire increase and more going to two big-ticket human space programs. The Constellation Systems program to develop the next generation of human spacecraft would receive $3.1 billion, an increase of 24.5 percent or $606 million.


If you take 24.5 % of $606,000,000 you get $457,530,000


So saying that Obama proposed a CUT is false.
Obama proposes an increase - if only slightly.

The current estimates of 5 years for the gap of completion are because of the current administration's funding for the program.




Its hilarious that when you type "current funding for NASA project constellation" into google


all you get is a bunch of "obama wants to destroy NASA" links


I guess this country truly does suffer from The Quadrennial Exploitation Of The Moronic Masses



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 01:59 AM
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reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin
 


How do you view the financial aspect of the space program? Regardless of who wins. I view the space program as beneficial to our society and needs major investment. Where do we get the money from.

By the way. Your welcome for the advertising.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
McCain & Obama - both laid out - right there in the first two posts of this thread.....and nobody in ALL of ATS wants to talk about it ??


What is there to talk about?
You are an OBAMA follower, who is not interested in debating the subject. All you seem interested in is pointing out how great Obama is and how McCain will never be his equal.

You Obama guys are starting to get desperate.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by COOL HAND
 



What is there to talk about?
You are an OBAMA follower, who is not interested in debating the subject



pretty bold assumption on my character seeing as how you have never, once, tried debating it.

When someone makes an accusation - im going to debate it if i believe their accusation is wrong.
should i debate someone on false pretenses so that they can feel good about themselves?


This thread is a perfect example : I debated.

Someone said "Obama wants to cut funding"

Obama didnt cut funding. Funding went from 460 million something to 500 million. No - its not significant increase, i believe it should be DOUBLE that - but thats not my point - my point is that the accusation that its a funding CUT is FALSE. Something you anti-obama guys seem to love to take part in - false accusations and mud slinging.

Yes im an obama supporter, so ill back him up where i get the chance, and ill objectively discuss issues. If you dont like it, well, im sorry, then this isnt the thread for you.


Obama has since changed his stance and wants to close that gap (IE: Increase funding)

Is he blowing smoke up the american publics john brown hind quarters? I don't know. Maybe he is, maybe he isnt. I choose to approach politics with the mindset that you find someone who's BS best suits your best interests, and you run with it.

Some people disagree. Some people choose to hold the politicians to the standards of a saint. I choose not to - i don't believe its fair.
Politicians lie to get ahead. It's an unfortunate truth, but one that i believe, if you're going to discuss politics, that you have to be ready to accept as part of the game.


Are there better candidates for the space program than Obama? I'm sure there are. Do i know who they are? No, i don't, you havent helped me find them - instead you came in here crying like a child, and contributing nothing to the thread.

I DO believe that Obama is better than McCain, and since the thread is "Mccain vs obama" on the space program - im going to side with Obama. If you'd like to disagree - then do so. But please, leave the crying on mommy's shoulder - because im sick of it.




Don't go throwing around accusations that you cannot back up yourself.

Try contributing to the quality of the forums for a change.

[edit on 8/20/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by jam321
 



How do you view the financial aspect of the space program? Regardless of who wins. I view the space program as beneficial to our society and needs major investment. Where do we get the money from.


I believe that in terms of "muscle flexing" as a country - there is no better medium than space exploration and pioneering.

I believe the constellation program alone needs to be simultaneous with the retirement of the shuttle, because if we, as a country, have to rely on other countries to get our scientists into space - i believe that is a huge disappointment and a sign that America just doesnt give a damn any more. It'd be a sign that all we are is one great big rendition of Vegas. All entertainment, nothing more.

I believe we need much much much more funding - even more than what Obama offers.

But i also believe that Obama offers more than any of the other main candidates, so i'll "take what i can get" so to speak.

Manned flights are great. The ISS is great. But i want to see a moon landing. I want to see a manned mission to mars. I want to see those things in my life time. So hell yes - increase funding. Drop the war and pump that 500 billion into NASA



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
This is a lie. He never took a previous position that said NASA had to suffer funding CUTS. I await your proof, else you are a liar.


You know, a simple google search would've shown you what you claim doesn't exist.

Simply click here: Barack Obama's Plan for Lifetime Success Through Education

Now scroll the entire way down to the last paragraph and you will see the following:


The early education plan will be paid for by delaying the NASA Constellation Program for five years...






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