Obama's Extreme Stand on Abortion

Anyhow I think the right should address the issues of poverty...

If you go to any abortion clinic you will find that most of the "patients"
are not even capable of caring for themselves.

You often hear-" get rid of the minimum wage" from many conservatives on ATS!

Then when you point out - "how can someone support themselves and a baby on $900.00 a month?" - you will hear- "get another job lazy!"

OK so $1800.00 a month... Well lets see... an average apartment in my city is $1150.00

What about the well being of the child?

Insurance is a choice- right RIGHTS?!

OK - $150.00 ( " a very conservative figure for two" )

Mandatory car insurance in my state ( if you think a car might be necessary at some point in a families life)... $75.00

Well now with two jobs this young mother works, eighty hours a week, for $1800.00 after taxes.

$450.00 left to pay for diapers, food, formula, gas, clothing, "college for the baby", medical emergencies, living life, maybe a vacation?

Now I may just be a pinko terrorist unpatriotic liberal but this type of future does not seem conducive to raising a child.

You have your head in the sand if you don't think this sort of mindset does not factor into abortion in a major way!

Further more ask yourself - "is it responsible to bring a child into the world if this is the "reality"?"

Factor in this person would be working about half the hours of the week.

good parenting will result for sure!

Like many things in a Capitalist society, it all boils down to $$$$$$$$.

So if conservatives worked hard to helped end working poverty then I could understand
this anti abortion argument more.

It is easy to sight morality if the end result is the only part of the issue being addressed.

What about the other moral questions that preceded the abortion?

Would it not be more effective to address the issues that lead to to many many abortions?

Often I hear poverty is a choice.

"Eliminate minimum wage or do not increase minimum wage."

"Healthcare is a choice not a right."

ETC...

All economic issues.

I think anyone being intellectually honest could equate poverty and the amount of abortions.

If abortions become illegal... the tax payer will be burdened because unsafe abortions will happen just as much. Next thing will will have is "the war on abortion" just like the hopelessly ineffective and expensive war on drugs.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Remedy the economic dysfunction of the society and I believe there will be a much stronger moral argument to be made against abortion.

If you don't believe me go to a clinic and look at the faces, these are not well to do faces...

Poverty is a choice but abortion is not?

Poverty is the root, abortion is a branch.

IMHO.





[edit on 17-8-2008 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by mental modulator

If you don't believe me go to a clinic and look at the faces, these are not well to do faces...

Poverty is a choice but abortion is not?

Poverty is the root, abortion is a branch.

IMHO.

I'll agree with the clinic thing, but I'm sure there's plenty of "well to do" women having them too. They just don't need to go to the clinic first.

This issue is certainly a hot potato for allot of people, I personally don't feel I have the right to tell someone else what to do concerning this. However, adoption isn't what it used to be. If you become pregnant explore your options completely(lawyer?), you may find alternatives to something that you may regret down the road.

Being a man I will never face this choice, but have felt its effects from the other side of the fence and have regrets and remorse.

reply to post by jsobecky


How is this even a political issue?
I though this was the "land of the Free", where politicians are supposed to keep out of peoples private business...

This is nothing more then an economic issue, worst a hypocritical issue:

- Rich "Bible Belt" nuts can send their kids to private clinics in other States, Asia and Europe, to have as many abortions as they wish and, being the hypocrites that they are, along with the right-wing christians, they have more abortions and inbreeding then any so-called "Liberal".
- Poor people can not afford to "hide" their kids in private clinics or other countries, they have to resort to dangerous DIY abortions, that put their lives in danger and their situation is a dark stain in America's claim to be the "champion of Democracy".

Democracy is not only the ability to vote, from time to time.
Democracy is the access, of every citizen, to good health care, good housing and good education.

Funny how so many right-wing christians send their daughter to Cuban clinics, to have abortions and recuperate...Of course, to their friends and their neighbors, their daughter went on a "trip" to Europe, or to "study" in some other State...

These are the sort of people that are against government funded abortions, they can afford to be, they don't need the government, they have money. They hide themselves behind the "pro-life" banner, they are nothing less then pathetic inbred Hypocritical bastards...they disgust me...

** I am Canadian, so I won't vote.
** I have been a McCain volunteer since RG (Mr. Mayer) pulled out of the race.

If I was as low a life form as these right-wing Hypocrites I would start publishing a list, on the Internet, of all these "pro-life" idiots whose kids have had abortions...
Unfortunately, my values are far greater then theirs' and I would never do such a thing. I would be too ashamed to live in the moral swamp they like so much...besides I don't like the slime they leave behind.
Hope somebody isn't as scrupulous as me, and starts publishing such a list, then we will see the true face of these "pro-life" hypocrites.

reply to post by Alora


I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any man that take a neutral stance on monitoring and regulatingmy uterus and private parts wins a star from me, anybody Else please stay away from my darn uterus because is none of any of your business.

Thank God and Jesus for keeping away from monitoring woman uterus and private parts also, Jesus was indeed a smart man if he ever existed outside the bible he never left any guidelines on how to monitor woman private parts.

[edit on 17-8-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by jsobecky


It is not about the comprehension of morals, values, and principles. You can not dictate to me my values and principles therefore it is a non-issue. We can argue all day long when life starts, whether at conception or even first breath. The fact of the matter is a government should not interpret societies or individuals principles, values, and morals.

If this were so some people would have women or young girls keep fetuses alive even if it were the result of rape, incest, or life threatening scenario to the women carrying the fetus, Which in my view of "principles" is wrong and unjust.

democrats like abortion...kill babies

democrats dont like death penalty...kill murderers

I think thats enough said..........

what a wierd bunch of nuts u are............

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[edit on 17-8-2008 by DontTreadOnMe]

reply to post by mental modulator


well i cant afford it so...kill the babie.....

nice logic


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[edit on 17-8-2008 by DontTreadOnMe]

To me it seems more like he's committed entirely to letting people make their own choices when it comes to abortion more than he hates babies and wants every to have an abortion. Also, as to the "not wanting his daughters punished by pregnancy" remark, I seriously doubt he considers pregnancy in general to be a punishment and is probably talking about the variety of unpleasant things that unwanted or unhealthy pregnancies can bring along with them.


[edit on 17-8-2008 by leafdarking]

reply to post by NorthWolfe CND


*personal attack removed*

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[edit on 17-8-2008 by DontTreadOnMe]

So, although abortion is wrong and only Democrats do it, you still hate me enough that you wish my parents had killed me when I was still a mindless blob of cells on my mom's uterus lining?

Wow, I feel special and a half! All warm and fuzzy!

Originally posted by redseal
reply to post by mental modulator

 

well i cant afford it so...kill the babie.....

nice logic

You see this is the problem... I gave a long and nuanced VIEW of my OPINION and you come along with this crap, added nothing to the discussion and cut the lines of communication.


How about this smart a$$...

We need to protect American lives - lets send Americans to die - to protect Americans from dying - by killing people who did not start killing Americans - until Americans started killing them....

Big time FT... thanks for nothing

Originally posted by Ravinsomniac
Wasn't the United States of America founded on, "Freedom of Choice" ?
Somewhere along the line, politicians have swept that little phrase under the carpet.

As long as it dos not trespass on someone else. Like a human fetus. Why dont some women have the backbone to pay the consequences to having sex instead of taking a life out of convenience.

I wish some people today would "eat just a little moral fiber for breakfast"

reply to post by LoneGunMan


LoneGunMan.

I wonder if you would be able to provide some of your moral fiber in the form of an answer for this question. The reason i bring up this question is because its a strong dillema in the abortion issue - one of which must be considered in order to make a just and sound decision, and why obama says this type of thinking is above his pay grade;


Is it okay, or "moral", for a family member to pull the plug on a vegetative loved one without that persons consent?

reply to post by LoneGunMan


This isn't about abortion, abortion is legal in the USA, you just need to have the money to pay for a private clinic or hospital...
The issue is on the role of the government, in the form of general health institutions, should subsidize people that can't afford the private clinics or hospitals.

Currently in the USA, if you have the money for it, in some States, you can have an abortion almost until conception (in private clinics and hospitals)...

As for the moral issue, who made you the Judge and Jury on the issue?
Why is your opinion on the time a new life is formed more relevant, or truthful then people with other opinions?
Why do you want to impose your moral opinions on other people?
Why so judgmental, shouldn't you leave the judging to your god?

Live and Let Live!!!

reply to post by silo13


I humbly disagree with you. The greatest gift God gave mankind was and is the gift of eternal life through faith in His son Jesus Christ...unearned and unearnable, it may only be accepted with the contrition of a broken clay jar that seeks the healing hands of the potter to reform it to the image that it was intended to have. That not withstanding,
this greatest gift means nothing if not for the second greatest gift: that of life, which is granted at conception. Life is so important a gift in God's eyes that it's removal by a wanton act is prohibited as a violation of one of His 10 commandments.

An unborn child has no audible voice to proclaim it's worth, no strength of hand to defend itself from those who would rend it's flesh asunder before (and sometimes after) it has seen the light of day. That role of defender is the blessing given to the mother who carries it...to protect and nurture that living soul as its flesh suit knits around it in preparation for its journey on this earth. The soul is there. The eternal essence of a new human exists but the capsule for its journey needs the loving safety of the mothers womb in order for the journey to occur.

The real struggle for a woman is not to ensure that the courts maintain her right to end that life. The real struggle for a woman is to stand up and be firm in her role as defender of life; to resist the temptation to act in God's place as taker of life. I judge no woman who has had an abortion, or two or 3 (as I had before I came to understand the truth). I simply say to you that you have a higher call. For God's sake, your sake and that of the beautifu soul within you, do not relinquish it. If you have already relinquished it then stop, turn your heart around, accept God's forgiveness and then STAND, encourage others to stand and give or direct them to resources so they might stand.

I encourage you to talk to any woman who, when facing an unplanned pregnancy, chose life. I believe you will find that they have no doubt it was the better of the two options.

reply to post by paxnatus

I encourage you to talk to any woman who, when facing an unplanned pregnancy, chose life

Key word in that quote : "chose"

thats what this si about

choice.

its not about anyones zealous rage to kill babies.

Its about women making choices that affect their bodies.

Nothing more.

Choice. Every woman should have it.

The black & white stuff is indeed funny.

Killing is bad people say, but indeed, there is no black & white, more different shades of gray.

Example: What if one person is 100% certain that a child is not approved of by her parents / friends due to religion or whatever, and is 100% certain that the child will lead a miserable life. This child might get suicidal tendencies (if not killed by the family due to being a ''cursed'' child, again religion.), meaning that this child lead a miserable life to decide what those people would not allow before, to be killed.

Or what if the mother's life is in danger, Killing is bad regardless some people say, that means *no matter what* including if not killing one of them would save the life of the other.

What about a pregnant mother that has a 2nd baby with the rhesus factor, rejection. What to do?

Of course this is hypothetical, but these things do happen in real life, and they are a factor that should be considered.

Killing is bad regardless they say, but I am quite sure that most of them do not feel the same way when it gets to insects and plants, simply because plants do not convey any emotions or messages, though they do live.

And insects are usually just considered a plain nuisance.

[edit on 18/8/08 by -0mega-]

Obviously I'm pro-choice but in my opinion none of these politicians take it far enough, the arguments about whether it should be legal after the first term, the second term or conception are completely spurious, It should be legal to abort any child under 16.

USA, the country where presidential elections are decided over abortion, gay-rights and some stupid religoius bull#. like you dont have bigger issues there? I am always so awwed that this so called leader of the free world can still fight over stupid biblical abortion thing. To pro-life´ers. Id like to see you to nurture the baby of your raped daughter? You can see the eyes of the rapist in your daughters "son". Id like you to nurture the six-legged mutantbaby?

And USA is st the same time killing civilians in Iraq and torturing prisoners without any charges in GB. Wow, the land of the free...

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by ThePiemaker

 

It speaks to our moral fiber as a nation, how we treat the most defenseless among us. We are not a disposable society when it comes to life.

Edit: Regardless of whether it should be an issue, the fact that he supports partial birth abortion says a lot about his makeup, imo.

[edit on 17-8-2008 by jsobecky]

Bingo!

I am pro-life but there should be exceptions made for women that are raped or have a great risk of health issues.

This issue is the stupidest one to ever be kicked around. Very simple, stop having sex or get "fixed" if you don't want to have kids.

If you are responsible enough to be sexually active, you damn well better be responsbile enough to pay the consequences. Those that say they can't support the child are full of it.

My sister was 16 when she got pregnant. Neither her or her deadbeat boyfriend at the time had jobs. They lived with my family which was a 36K a year salary household supporting 9 people (2 elderly).

They eventually got married and he was in and out of jail. She sucked it up, left her husband and became a responsible parent. Her son is now top of his school and an honor student.

I bring this up because most (not all) people get abortions cause they don't want to deal with the hassle. They are irresponsible, stupid and continue to repeat their old ways of getting pregnant. I've seen this many times first hand.

A professor of mine had a very good example for us. "If you plant a seed and it germinates the plants already begun its life, therefore in killing it, you are killing the life of a plant and not a seed."