Obama did great, but McCain hit the home runs, page 2

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reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 09:12 AM by Benevolent Heretic

Some questions and replies to posters. (You didn't think I was done, did you?)

Originally posted by JustTheFacts
I surely don't support McCain ...I can see that my vote for McCain will not be wasted.

You don't support McCain, but you're going to vote for him? That confuses me.

Originally posted by jam321
The above his pay grade on abortion comment will bite him in the butt.

Really? I thought that was a great answer! It's not for us to judge. That's God's job (for those who believe such things).

McCain ran all around what defines rich.

I know. And he even said the 1.5 million dollars remark would haunt him. If it does, I'll defend him because it was clearly a contextual and off-the-cuff remark.

Originally posted by jimmyx
please...no new taxes, no abortion, everythings black and white. sounds like bush II.

Excellent post! I agree 100%. In McCain's world, everything is black and white, the answers to everything are simplistic and straightforward:

Evil: Defeat it!
Abortion: No!
Marriage: Man and Woman! Next?

Obama captured the nuances that are in real life, while McCain, sadly, spouted "talking points" and the crowd slurped them up. Life is not black and white. The shades of gray far outnumber either extreme.

And yes, Bush II's similar simplistic notions have us where we are now. We need something different. Not more of the same.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 09:31 AM by jsobecky

I don't particularly think that stuttering as a delay tactic makes one intellectual. And I don't see lack of courage to make a decision as a "shade of gray".

But then, I'm not a "You Had Me At Change" Obama fan.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 10:13 AM by Open_Minded Skeptic

Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't particularly think that stuttering as a delay tactic makes one intellectual.

Nor do I (or anyone I've spoken to on the subject). I do, however, see the well-thought-out and well presented final answer as greatly contributing to an intellectual air.

And I don't see lack of courage to make a decision as a "shade of gray".

I see the ability to not jump to some rah rah decision that may sound good at first but not really be such a great idea, but rather to wait until one has sufficient data upon which to form a decision as a substantial indicator of courage. Again, thought out replies vs sound bites.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 10:49 AM by JustTheFacts

Originally posted by JustTheFacts
I surely don't support McCain ...I can see that my vote for McCain will not be wasted.
You don't support McCain, but you're going to vote for him? That confuses me.

I get that a lot. I won't campaign for him, I won't donate money to him, I won't go out of my way to say a lot of good things about him either because politically, he has voted with liberals as much as conservatives.

That was easily witnessed by how everyone laughed when the question came up about "COULD YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE YOU LED AGAINST YOUR PARTY'S INTEREST" - Rick could hardly get it out of his mouth without laughing (and the audience too) when that question was asked of McCain - McCain didn't get the moniker of "Maverick" for going along with the Republicans.
While Obama has a record of voting along party lines greater than 96% of the time for 3 years running.

McCain is truly "middle of the road" but I get the impression that he is honest and not always just pandering when he does make these decisions on how to vote.
This is why I will be able to vote for him without really supporting him.
Of the 2 main contenders, McCain has fewer drawbacks than Obama.
The Democrats have it made this time around, they win either way.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 10:50 AM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I actually thoroughly enjoyed that debate from both candidates. McCains POW stories gave me some more insight into who he was. Its different hearing about them, and reading about them.

But of course - for me - this isnt about heart felt stories. McCain suffered in that camp, and for that he deserves recognition. But i don't believe it carried any context in this debate outside of the one question

"The toughest choice you've ever made in your life"

I was very impressed when McCain admitted his greatest moral defeat was his first marriage. Big time kudos there John

But i agree with the black and white assessment.
We have seen from 2007 and 2008 exactly where "black and white" thinking has gotten us. Which is why i believe Barack actually did a much better job in this debate.

Now - as for the reaction of the crowd - you betcha, McCain won this one.

But this is a small battle in the big war of the race for presidency.

The responses of the two candidates in this forum will follow them all the way to November in the election booths. They will be scrutinized in the MSM (which, unfortunately, most people still get their political 'facts' from). They will be scrutinized by each other.

McCain opened a pretty big barn door on himself with this election with his answers. His answers make you feel good, and make you feel like everything is okay. To a degree, that is important. For a counselor, or a pep speaker.

For a leader, i believe, its important to tell those you lead the nitty gritty.

"This isnt going to be easy. Everyone will have to make scarifies" and i LOVED the WW2 era reference. I think it really puts into perspective not only the differences between now and then, but also the similarities in the mindsets of now and then.

I like Obama's approach on abortion. Make abortion illegal does nothing to fix the problem. The problem that pro-life people make for abortion is that they say its killing a life.

Rather you agree or disagree, the fact is that if its illegal, you still have the same problem that women will seek it out as an alternative....problem not solved.

Obama's approach is fix the problem. Why are women choosing abortion?

I loved it.

Of course, you know that i'm an Obama supporter. I've made that no secret

But i do believe Obama did much better than people are giving him credit for.

Of course, time will tell. That and how the Obama campaign plans to use McCains short and sweet answers against him.

I went into this thinking i was going to be able to pick apart everything McCain said. That I wasnt going to enjoy the McCain part at all. I was wrong. Thankfully

The only thing i found most profound about McCains answers was when he was asked "what makes you rich"

He never gave a straight forward answer. When writing tax laws, this is a very important decision to consider.....

A house, a car, and a family doesnt make a person rich. They make a person blessed. I believe there is a big big big difference.

One is earthly. One is divine.
I think he just dodged it so as to not offend any rich people.

Just my 2 cents though

Great Debate. Cant' wait for more.

[edit on 8/17/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 11:19 AM by jam321

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Like you said OBAMA is very intellectual and if he had wanted to say it was up to God on abortion, he would have. Instead he said that it was above his pay grade to answer. He is running for President and it is above his pay grade to state what he believes.

What other questions or issues will be above his pay grade? I for one honestly feel that he said it to avoid being pinned down on the issue. He is a politician and that is what politicians do. Same thing McCain did with the rich thing. Politicians. Although I do believe McCain is correct. A lot of people work 16 hours a day to make more money to get ahead, not to support government programs that for the most part are set up to get people to rely on the government for their needs.

Don't try to sell me that the above his pay grade means he was talking about God. Obama has said he is pro choice I see no reason why he couldn't define when he thinks that life begins.

I will also say that I was surprised that a thoughtful and intellectual person would use the word screwed in a church setting. But that's just my personal opinion.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 11:31 AM by Valhall

I don't agree with the OP's assessment. I think they both hit the home runs. What a wonderful situation to be in.

Four years ago there was the most dark and depressing election I have been a voter in since I began voting in the early 80's. I truly (spiritually) felt that the choice was the lesser of two evils (politically and spiritually). I felt that neither man was to be a good leader, but one might be worse than the other. I honestly stated on this board that I could not, in good conscience, pick because I felt the election was so important to the future of America that something that monumental needed to be left to God. At the polling station I literally took out a quarter and prayed to God to make the decision for me and then voted on a flip of a coin.

Four years later I feel that the coming election is even more important now. We do not stand at the precipice on this election - we stood on that precipice in 2004. We have since fallen, to some measure, from the moral (this has nothing to do with religious beliefs, but a moral, spiritual position as members of the global community of God's children and our role as stewards to each other) position our country had at one time. Because we did fall, this election is even more important to me, because we must have a leader that has the strength to climb a mountain and lead us to assist in pulling the nation and the world back to that higher moral standing.

This is the most important election of my life to date...and my heart is smiling. My very being is smiling because we are in a position diametrically opposite to the one 4 years ago. We are now in the position of choosing the better of two good men. As Obama stated last night (and I was very impressed with this response) God will make sure we get the leader we need - I have faith that He can handle that for us...and either one of this good men will be an awesome leader for this country.

I may end up voting the same way I did 4 years ago - with a prayer and a flip of a coin, but this time I won't feel like I've turned a terrible choice over to God to salvage, but instead turned a no-lose decision over to God to do the most with.

I understand there are many on this board who don't have any spiritual beliefs and may dismiss Divine Intervention, and that is okay. I can believe along side those who reject a Higher Presence...but even if we take all spiritual beliefs out of the equation, I have to say I believe we have two morally sound leaders to choose from...and that's an envious position to be in.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 11:56 AM by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by jam321
Don't try to sell me that the above his pay grade means he was talking about God.

I wouldn't try to sell you.

But I've been listening to this man for a while now. I'm absolutely certain that's what he meant. It's not something for the government to decide, but, depending on our perspective, a "higher" position. Above his pay grade.

From the transcript linked on page one:

WELL, I THINK THAT WHETHER YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT FROM A THEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE OR A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, ANSWERING THAT QUESTION WITH SPECIFICITY, YOU KNOW, IS ABOVE MY PAY GRADE.

In other words, he can't say for certain. He's not God (theological perspective) and he's not a scientist (scientific perspective)... so he can't say when life begins (just as NONE of us can for sure). A very intelligent and honest answer.

Anyone who says they know is just fooling themselves.

Sorry it's not a "sound bite" that's easy to pop in your brain and digest. It requires a bit of thought and consideration to fully understand.

Believe whatever you like.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:08 PM by Blaine91555

Originally posted by redmage

As for McCain, it seemed like his advisors told him; "No matter what he asks you, make sure to tie-in an anecdote from Nam.". He seemed to be using his P.O.W. experience as a serious crutch.

I found that odd too. I've watched him in many speeches but he never mentions Vietnam as far as his personal experiences. It came across as genuine which it is of course.

I'd say Obama would be wise to stay clear of debates with him. Obama does a little dance and skirts issues with his answers trying to please everyone. McCain gives hard clear answers and seem to not give a damn if anyone likes his answers or not. Overall they both did well though.

I really liked that format. I hope it is picked up and used more often.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:21 PM by walkinghomer

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
From the transcript linked on page one:

WELL, I THINK THAT WHETHER YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT FROM A THEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE OR A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, ANSWERING THAT QUESTION WITH SPECIFICITY, YOU KNOW, IS ABOVE MY PAY GRADE.

In other words, he can't say for certain. He's not God (theological perspective) and he's not a scientist (scientific perspective)... so he can't say when life begins (just as NONE of us can for sure). A very intelligent and honest answer.

Anyone who says they know is just fooling themselves.

Sorry it's not a "sound bite" that's easy to pop in your brain and digest. It requires a bit of thought and consideration to fully understand.

Believe whatever you like.

I was looking for a way to explain the "above my pay grade" comment and you hit the nail right on the head. Very well said my friend.

Comment: why on Earth would Obama agree to such a forum. The majority of the people in the audience are pro mccain and were looking for any reason to applaud him. He was like a Zebra in a Hyena's pack. My opinion is that he shouldn't have done it. "Some" people don't want to think for themselves, they just go with what they think other people like and applaud for. A person who fits that category who's home watching tv and seeing all these hyena's clapping and laughing with Mccain they think "oh yeah, he good, he da one, i'ma vote for that one, everyone else likes him so he must be good"...Just my opinion

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:27 PM by jam321

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.

source

so he tells me that answering the question of when does life begin is above his pay grade, but it isn't above his pay grade to tell me that fatherhood begins at conception.

Where is the theological perspective or a scientific perspective that fatherhood begins at conception?

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:28 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by walkinghomer

First off, i agree with you.

But everyone already knows what you've said

Obama knows it himself. Why did he agree to it? I dunno. Maybe he was bored.

Ill wager a guess that 99% of the people who watched that video have already made up their mind which of the two they'll vote for (unless 3rd party is their option) before they ever watched that debate.

In either way - i have serious doubts that this debate swayed one single person.

Maybe thats why Obama agree'd to a debate in a religious atmosphere.

What most people forget though - Obama may be pro-choice, but that doesnt make him pro-evil.

The biggest mistake Christians make in this country is passing judgement on another human being.

That act automatically diqualifies you as a Christian. If being a Christian is following the teachings of Christ

Christ taught "let he without sin cast the first stone"

if you believe in God, you know we're all sinners.

That verse encompasses this entire debate. Any Christian who disagree's is only further proving my case

And i would know. I am a Christian.

[edit on 8/17/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:35 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by jam321

so he tells me that answering the question of when does life begin is above his pay grade, but it isn't above his pay grade to tell me that fatherhood begins at conception.

Where is the theological perspective or a scientific perspective that fatherhood begins at conception?

lets define Father

1. a male parent.
2. a father-in-law, stepfather, or adoptive father.
3. any male ancestor, esp. the founder of a race, family, or line; progenitor.
4. a man who exercises paternal care over other persons; paternal protector or provider: a father to the poor.
5. a person who has originated or established something: the father of modern psychology; the founding fathers.
6. a precursor, prototype, or early form: The horseless carriage was the father of the modern automobile.
7. one of the leading men in a city, town, etc.: a scandal involving several of the city fathers.
8. Chiefly British. the oldest member of a society, profession, etc. Compare dean1 (def. 3).
9. a priest.
10. (initial capital letter) Theology. the Supreme Being and Creator; God.
11. a title of respect for an elderly man.
12. the Father, Theology. the first person of the Trinity.
13. Also called church father. Church History. any of the chief early Christian writers, whose works are the main sources for the history, doctrines, and observances of the church in the early ages.
14. Ecclesiastical.
a. (often initial capital letter) a title of reverence, as for church dignitaries, officers of monasteries, monks, confessors, and esp. priests.
b. a person bearing this title.
15. fathers, Roman History. conscript fathers.
–verb (used with object)
16. to beget.
17. to be the creator, founder, or author of; originate.
18. to act as a father toward.
19. to acknowledge oneself the father of.
20. to assume as one's own; take the responsibility of.
21. to charge with the begetting of.
–verb (used without object)
22. to perform the tasks or duties of a male parent; act paternally: Somehow he was able to write a book while fathering.

Or in a nutshell: Responsibility. Noble. Wise.

Being a father begins at conception because to rampantly procreate with ill-intentions and selfish agenda's (another notch on the belt) is one of the problems that results in the 40,000,000 abortions problem.

One of the biggest reasons a woman chooses an abortion is because she cant raise the child on her own.

If the father had been responsible, the abortion may not have ever happened.

Its above his pay grade as a theologian or a scientist. This is true. Obama is neither. When it comes to the "does life begin at conception" issue.

But Barack Obama IS a father. So its not above his 'pay grade' to classify what he believes makes a good and responsible father.

Why do you have such an issue with this?

[edit on 8/17/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:39 PM by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by walkinghomer
why on Earth would Obama agree to such a forum.

He wants to show that he is a religious person, too. I thought he did very well considering the obvious number of McCain fans there. Obama wants to show people who he is. And a big part of who he is is his faith. I totally support his courage and his decision to do this.

Originally posted by jam321
so he tells me that answering the question of when does life begin is above his pay grade, but it isn't above his pay grade to tell me that fatherhood begins at conception.

He didn't say it begins there. He said it doesn't END there. Very different concept. Again, it takes some thought on the listener's part. If a man is going to be a responsible father, he needs to be there after conception. That doesn't mean that fatherhood STARTS at conception (necessarily), it just goes beyond conception.

I'm not going to defend this any more. As I said, believe what you want. It doesn't concern me.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:50 PM by Anonymous ATS

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic

I noticed this as well McCain knows what the republicans want to hear and consider where the forum took place. It's another George Bush, this morning I used the term "If McCain gets re-elected" not even aware of it till a friend said something. Obama's answer was well thought out, even sounded like evil can come from anywhere, even in the United States itself. Last week after unloading some parts from a truck, the driver, made many comments about Obama being a muslim and just couldn't consider voting for Obama because he has no experience. I replied "You think McCain has experience being a president then?"

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:55 PM by jam321

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

I don't have an issue Andrew. I made a comment that it will come back to bite him on the butt and BH responded to that. You and BH want to spin it around and make people believe that it is up to God or scientist to answer that question, so be it.

I and many like me feel it was just an attempt to avoid being pinned on a question that is controversial. He knows that scientist will always be divided on the issue and that different religions will also be divided by the issue. God's word is interpreted in different ways by different people.

Amazing how politicians can save animals from moment of conception but that's a different story.

But Barack Obama IS a father. So its not above his 'pay grade' to classify what he believes makes a good and responsible father.

so, he believes fathers should start taking responsibility for their child at the start of conception. That means a father should be responsible for the life he creates. Life that begins at conception.

One of the biggest reasons a woman chooses an abortion is because she cant raise the child on her own.

Is this is a fact or just your opinion.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 12:56 PM by ADisbeliever

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 01:15 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

reply to post by jam321

Its my opinion - and depending on who you talk to - its a fact.

Reasons women would choose abortion

* Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.5
* Inability to support or care for a child.
* To end an unwanted pregnancy.
* To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.
* Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.
* Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman's health if the pregnancy is continued.

And being a father is completely different from designating consciousness and awareness at conception.

But i ask you to answer this for me.

If "life" does not have to have consciousness and/or self-awareness foot-noted on it in order to be sacred

Is it okay to pull the plug on a vegetative loved one without that persons consent?

These are the types of questions that make it justifiably "above obama's paygrade"

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 01:15 PM by ADisbeliever

Originally posted by ADisbeliever

"Please use abovepolitics.com to debate the merit of one political idealogy over another."

I might be looking at the wrong forum, but according to my browser, this IS abovepolitics.com. Fail mod is fail.

reply posted on 17-8-2008 @ 01:29 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin

Originally posted by ADisbeliever

"Please use abovepolitics.com to debate the merit of one political idealogy over another."

I might be looking at the wrong forum, but according to my browser, this IS abovepolitics.com. Fail mod is fail.

In an ATTEMPT to try and get this thread back on topic (