With alcohol fuel, you can become energy-independent, reverse global warming, and survive Peak Oil in style. Alcohol fuel is "liquid sunshine" and can't be controlled by transnational corporations. You can produce alcohol for less than $1 a gallon, using a wide variety of plants and waste products, from algae to stale donuts. It's a much better fuel than gasoline, and you can use it in your car, right now. You can even use alcohol to generate electricity. Alcohol fuel production is ecologically sustainable, revitalizes farms and communities, and creates huge new opportunities for small-scale businesses. Its byproducts are clean and valuable.

I think, its a vast change for people. To even think that acholical could run cars when it could of been thought of when the engine was invented blows peoples mind a bit "how could we of been so stupid" type thing.
Most people will come round to the idea, it will come to recycling more things and that is good.

Is this E85? We have an E85 station around here and the gas is 2.75 instead of the 3.77 for normal gas. It's so tempting to just go over there and fill up, but I heard that running cars not made for it is bad.(I have a 93 Chevy Corsica) I'd run it in there but don't want to do anything to make it die on me sooner.

Is this true? That it'll kill an older car faster? If that's the case that may be why people aren't excited about it.

You have to brew it yourself to get the savings. I understand that it is not for everybody.

We are not enthused because it's a crock. It takes more energy to produce than it saves, it lowers MPG when mixed with regular gas and it's using up food resources (land) for fuel and putting downward pressure on the food supply.

There are hidden costs to ethanol that people didn't initially take into account.

Because most of it at this point relies on corn to produce -- yeah, there are plans to make plants that run off switchgrass, etc., but few if none running -- so it's driving up the price of corn to ridiculous levels on the commodities boards. So more farmers switch to corn, where the demand is, which in turn makes fewer farmers plant soybeans, which drives up those prices. All the while, ethanol is not that much cheaper than regular old gas. So we're stuck having to choose between food and fuel, with no particular price advantage going on.

Additionally, unlike oil or gas, you can't pump ethanol any distance in a pipe. It doesn't have enough viscosity. That means you have to carry it by tanker to where you want it, which makes shipping it long distances prohibitively expensive. Either that, or you have to build ethanol plants closer to where you want to sell it. And they're not particularly cheap to build, investors don't see profits from them right away, there's a question as to whether or not the energy needed to create the ethanol is worth the amount of energy you get out, and the plants are not tremendously environmentally friendly.

What? You mean our knee-jerk "solution" to high gas prices isn't as practical or profitable as the quick-buck hucksters would have us believe? Say it ain't so!

And I know you're thinking "hydrogen," and "electric." Just do a little research to see what an expensive mess those could be with their expensive and toxic fuel cells and batteries.

Yeah, there will have to be a change someday, but not until gas becomes so expensive that the costs of the other energy choices are outweighed by the profits.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by Nohup]

Actually, 'they' did know alcohol could be used as a fuel when the automobile was invented. A lot of shine runners in the good ol' prohibition days actually used sterilized tanks filled with the contraband to both fuel their cars and transport the illegal whiskey.

The problem comes with quantity. Yes, alcohol can be made from almost any agricultural product (plant life), but it is cheaper to produce from corn. We also eat corn (or used to, before we started burning it in cars ). So in order to produce enough alcohol to handle our transportation needs, we would need a LOT of agricultural waste, and a LOT of facilities to produce it from something that is inefficient at producing it.

There are a few other things to consider as well: alcohol burns slower than gasoline and hotter as well. Therefore, overuse in a standard gasoline engine leads to a shorter engine life and a high possibility of overheating. Those shine runner cars I mentioned? they all ran exclusively on alcohol and had the timing adjusted to allow for the slower burn. they also had high-capacity cooling systems to compensate for the extra heat produced on combustion.

Now add in the fact that there is no such thing as 'agricultural waste'. To us it's waste, as we have no infrastructure to use it. But nature does have such an infrastructure. Every plant (and animal, for that matter) that rots produces richer soil for the next generation of plants. That's why the soil in the rain forests is so rich; the many many generations of plant life that have lived, died, and rotted produce a soil that could grow a bicycle from a buried chain. Every time we use something that is destined by nature for soil fertilization, we reduce the amount of nutrients in the future soil. A few gallons, or even a few thousand gallons wouldn't make a lot of difference in the long run, but when you start talking about millions of gallons per day, that's a lot of leeching of nutrients out of the soil to make your car go 'zoom'.

As for alcohol burning cleaner than gasoline, I don't see how. Alcohol is actually very similar chemically to hydrocarbons, with the major difference being an oxygen atom scattered throughout. Both, when pure, produce two ingredients from combustion in an abundance of oxygen: water (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2). Pollution comes from two factors: a lack of available oxygen for the complete combustion, and impurities in the fuel. The former has nothing to do with the fuel, but rather everything to do with combustion conditions, and while the latter may have been applicable (as alcohol is typically purer than refined gasoline) in days gone by, present gasoline blends are pretty clean of contaminants. That's one good thing to come out of the EPA.

So while alcohol may be a good idea for niche markets, it is simply not sufficient to power all of our transportation needs, has consequences to its overuse (even discounting using food crops directly) and has no real benefits where pollution is concerned.

What is wrong with oil?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by MacSen191
Is this E85? We have an E85 station around here and the gas is 2.75 instead of the 3.77 for normal gas. It's so tempting to just go over there and fill up, but I heard that running cars not made for it is bad.(I have a 93 Chevy Corsica) I'd run it in there but don't want to do anything to make it die on me sooner.

Is this true? That it'll kill an older car faster? If that's the case that may be why people aren't excited about it.

yes this is e85 ethanol, no this is false these people have no idea what they are talking about. i run it in all my cars 2003 corolla, 92 f-150, and 96 chevy corsica. you have a break in period.what happens to most peoples vehicles is they go straight from gas to ethanol, this is a big no no, first you have to find out what your computer will adjust for and not only that but ethanol is a form of solvent it will clean your fuel tank. when most people go from gas to ethanol they end up taking all the trash that is in there tanks and push it right into there fuel system and into there engine thats why it kills there car. you have to ween you car like a mother cat ween it kittens a little at a time. One should add one gal for every fill up like this 1gal 1fillup,2 gal 2nd fillup and so on till you find out what your cars computer will adjust for. another thing is this will clean out your engine harmful deposits so i suggest changing your oil every 2000 mile for the first 2 or 3 months.and replacing fuel filter if needed. if your in a state that has inspections for exhaust this fun becuase the moniter has a hard time picking the exhaust because you are running so clean. anymore questions you can u2u me.


[edit on 16-8-2008 by crawgator406]

Originally posted by kosmicjack
We are not enthused because it's a crock. It takes more energy to produce than it saves, it lowers MPG when mixed with regular gas and it's using up food resources (land) for fuel and putting downward pressure on the food supply.

how about this.. We stop paying farmers NOT to grow crops? Eh ?? I bet you food prices would go down and the cost of producing ethanol would go down too.

But no...... That would be way too simple.. As it is food prices are regulated strictly by the corporations. They don't want prices to go down because they would loose money.

Its all about money.......

As for ethanol . People just don't know enough about it because the large Oil companies don't want them to. Just like the fact electric car technology has been around sense the dawn of the Car and has also been suppressed.

There is absolutely no reason why we all couldn't have electric vehicles Non whatsoever. We have the Tech for it. Combine it with hydrogen fuelcell technology and you can run it on water. (Another tech that has been suppressed)

If it isn't going to make the rich richer don't expect for a instant they are going to let it out to the general public. It is the same reason why there are so many TREATMENTS for illnesses but so few CURES.. A cure doesn't make money but a Treatment does. Just like the entire medical situation.. They focus on treatment but do nothing about preventing the illness from happening in the first place.

Burning food for fuel while people starve in this world is ludicrous . At least no one can eat crude. Personally, I think we should be looking to the sun for our future energy needs.

Personally, I am very excited about ethanol. It is extremely easy to make and can easily solve all of our energy problems.

Yes, I am trilled. the price of feed corn has doubled in the last year. Other grain mixed have also skyrocketed. I suppose if all someone does is consider fueling a vehicle then if probably does put a smile on their face.

Originally posted by somedood
Burning food for fuel while people starve in this world is ludicrous . At least no one can eat crude. Personally, I think we should be looking to the sun for our future energy needs.

Elsewhere on this thread several of us have brought up the possibility that you can use NON AGRICULTURAL LAND to grow alcohol crops. I even mentioned that you can use wild Mesquite beans which cover the southwest US. I have seen studies that a pickup truck full of mesquite beans can produce forty gallons of alcohol. Alcohol also does not need a pipeline because it can be produced locally almost everywhere. Try that with gasoline.

Alcohol is the people's fuel. Gasoline is for people who have money to burn.

Solar energy is tops on my list, but I do not discount alcohol. Simply because both of them do not require big corporations to get the energy to you and I.

Here in Arizona there are lots of people using electric vehicles for short trips. You see them all the time at grocery stores and pharmacies and they are really popular at the retirement communities for getting around. How much gas would be saved if everybody had a golf cart yes an electric golf cart to get around in for short trips. How long has this technology been around? Long enough for everyone to have forgotten about it. No you can't pack the family up and go on vacation in one, but I bet it would save you several thousand dollars a year on your short trips. No exotic tech required here.

[edit on 8-16-2008 by groingrinder]

Originally posted by groingrinder

Originally posted by somedood
Burning food for fuel while people starve in this world is ludicrous . At least no one can eat crude. Personally, I think we should be looking to the sun for our future energy needs.

Elsewhere on this thread several of us have brought up the possibility that you can use NON AGRICULTURAL LAND to grow alcohol crops. I even mentioned that you can use wild Mesquite beans which cover the southwest US. I have seen studies that a pickup truck full of mesquite beans can produce forty gallons of alcohol. Alcohol also does not need a pipeline because it can be produced locally almost everywhere. Try that with gasoline.

Alcohol is the people's fuel. Gasoline is for people who have money to burn.

Solar energy is tops on my list, but I do not discount alcohol. Simply because both of them do not require big corporations to get the energy to you and I.

seaweed or kelp can produce large amounts of ethanol, and methane for electricity.