The UK looks to cut out minority legal rights - ie. Sharia Law

The 'host' country's law should stand.. without question!!.

I go to the M.E and expect to be treated by the law of their land.
Any 'incoming' should have the same respect..forget all this religion and cultural crap.

If they don't like it then it isn't hard to find an airport home again.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Dermo

 

I thought that all Christianity came from the Middle East, in what is now Syria. Wasn't that what the whole crusades thing was about. Then when the King got back from the crusades, a group of nobles made him sign the Magna Carta. Seems as that was how they taught us in school.

St Paul buzzed about the middle east and the mediterranean spreading Christianity in tandem with the other apostles. Not just Syria but elsewhere.

King Richard was on the Crusades but died later on.
King John signed the Magna Carta in 1215.
Crusades ended in 1291.
History lesson over.

reply to post by Krieger


Agreed , I am too, sick of this duality! Who can help!

reply to post by AGENT_T


Thats Right, if you don`t like the laws of the land # off home!

reply to post by WatchRider


Hmm, I thought Christ started Christianity, not Saint Paul, but that one might be debatable.

So the absence of King Richard on the Crusades had nothing to do with the signing of the Magna Carta?

Seems the history lesson has some holes in it.

reply to post by jiggyturbojim


But what if they don't want to buzz off home, as seems to be the situation?

What if they feel that they can quietly take over your country, as they have taken over other countries?

There is no room for sharia law in the UK. Stick to your form of Govt that has worked for centuries and don't cave in to these barbaric ideas.

Its sickening to hear the way you all talk about muslims like its a race. muslim just means believer in arabic. and who are we to say their culture and way of life is bad, who are we to try and change it. most people look at muslims as all bad people and all terrorist, but christians arnt the best people eigther. they have slaughtered more people in the name of christanity then anyone other religion in history. during the crusades they gave u the option to be christian or die. the muslim let u be christian let u pray let you worship how you wanted. evern today i see the same double standard placed on other cultures and religions, not only by christians but by other groups as well, and to me its sickening. in my opion christianity is the root of everything thats wrong in this world. its a relgion to control the people. america is supposed to be based off christian values yet we got the highest murder and rape, molesters case's in the world. america worships drugs, alcohol,sex, violance, we slaughter and committ mass genocide in the name of freedom(bs) again people wanna condem muslims but without islam america will still be back in the stone ages. bahgdad was the center of all learning back in the day all books on science. medica, math etc.. were in arabic islam and muslim contributed much to what america is to what the world is. i just say people in glass houses should'ent throw stones you can find faults in all religions. dont get me started on the catholics.
thats my veiw on this didnt mean to offend anyone with it. its just how i feel. sorry about the spellings and such im in hurry

No one talks about Muslims as a race, but as a religion and a culture with some very extreme beliefs, and a long history of forcing their beliefs on others.

Very few people look at all Muslims as bad people, but most people are leary of the fantatics lurking in their midst who feel that they have the right to kill people who disagree with their beliefs simply because they disagree, or because they decide to no longer be Muslims.

Muslims have a well recorded history of intimidation and hostility towards other religions. Your pretension that this is not true clearly shows your bias and inability to admit the truth.

People in the U.S. are well aware of the problems our country, and are more than willing to admit these problems, and join in discussion to solve these problems, but with Muslims all you get are denial and attacks turned towards other cultures. Far be it for Muslims to honest about the serious problems they face as a culture.

The Middle East certainly has made its contributions towards civilization, but no more than the west, and it has been a very, very, long time since the Middle East has been at the forefront of technology, like since before Muhammad conquered the area. Since the rise of Islam, the Middle East has been a backwards area of the world, marred in violence, slavery, and religious fanaticism.

Originally posted by poet1b
The Middle East certainly has made its contributions towards civilization, but no more than the west, and it has been a very, very, long time since the Middle East has been at the forefront of technology, like since before Muhammad conquered the area. Since the rise of Islam, the Middle East has been a backwards area of the world, marred in violence, slavery, and religious fanaticism.

That's not true. it was actually after the rise of Islam that the Arabs became the centre of learning with the collapse of the Roman Empire. In fact, they held the pre-emminent position in nearly all fields until the 16th century, when Europe finally dragged itself out of feudal and religious strife, and got on with things. After the 16th century, the Ottomans were the dominant Islamic state and even then, they fostered science and learning as well as religious and cultural diversity.

Islamic extremism as we know it has only been around for the better part of a century and usually went hand in hand with anti-colonial nationalist feelings, seeing as after WW1 the Ottoman Empire was broken up and shared out amongst the victors, namely the UK and France.

Originally posted by Nerevar

Thirdly, we need to PROMOTE being British, and what that means. At the moment, the majority of immigrants' views on the UK is that they will receive generous benefits / handouts. This needs to be scrapped. If you come here, you should have to WORK for what you want to get, no housing associations waiting lists, nothing. Only minimum food / clothing / heating vouchers. Not cash / cheques.

This path is difficult to take due to the PC types who blatantly refuse to even debate the crumbling and fragmented society in this country. I am only twentysomething and i am already despairing for the future generations that are sprawling out of schools across the UK. I cannot relate to the 'hip-hop' culture that seems to be taking hold in the youth of today (god, i sound like my grandad...) - this for me is a bigger problem....

You, me and Cecil Rhodes agree on this.

I'm in my twenties (just!) and I cannot stand how the worst of American culture has utterly pervaded Britain to infect it with "gangsta" kiddies, et all.

Originally posted by poet1b
I thought that all Christianity came from the Middle East, in what is now Syria. Wasn't that what the whole crusades thing was about. Then when the King got back from the crusades, a group of nobles made him sign the Magna Carta. Seems as that was how they taught us in school.

Irrelevant.

The History of the Roman Catholic Church from the apostolic times covers a period of nearly 2,000 years, beginning with the confession of Peter, and the establishment of the church by Jesus Christ. Catholic doctrine states that Christ is the head of his Mystical Body, the Catholic Church, which is the world's oldest and largest institution. The history of the Roman Catholic Church is integral to the History of Christianity and the history of Western civilization.

source

The Protestant Reformation was a reform movement in Europe that began in 1517, though its roots lie further back in time. It began with Martin Luther and may be considered to have ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.[1] The movement began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church.

source

I can go on with the obvious history of all sects of christianity that reformed from the original religion. Wherever you want to pinpoint the exact origins of the church, my point remains the same.

All versions of christianity came from the same place, some just changed the layout of their hierarchy and teachings, if you want to send one variation back to where you think they are from, then the rest belong there as well.

Originally posted by stumason
That's not true. it was actually after the rise of Islam that the Arabs became the centre of learning with the collapse of the Roman Empire. In fact, they held the pre-emminent position in nearly all fields until the 16th century, when Europe finally dragged itself out of feudal and religious strife, and got on with things.

True, but none of these were the purported "Muslim innovations" they harp on about. They were simply assimilated from the cultures they cannibalised.

Originally posted by stumasonAfter the 16th century, the Ottomans were the dominant Islamic state and even then, they fostered science and learning as well as religious and cultural diversity.

Indeed, and is the reason Turkey is 99% Muslim and yet remains secular - the rest of the Muslim world could learn a great deal from them.

Originally posted by stumasonIslamic extremism as we know it has only been around for the better part of a century and usually went hand in hand with anti-colonial nationalist feelings, seeing as after WW1 the Ottoman Empire was broken up and shared out amongst the victors, namely the UK and France.

I disagree. Muslims have always been willing to die for Mohammed, going right back to their initial battles and Khalid's conquest of Persia. The only difference is, back then, they didn't suck at warfare.

reply to post by stumason


Sorry, but after the fall of Rome, the Eastern portion carried on for a while afterwards, but all forward advancement simply stopped after the final fall of Rome in the 6th century. In reality, the advancement of civilization stopped pretty much at the time that Rome became Christian in the 4th century. After the establishment of the Christianity under Constantine, Roman civilization slowly ground to a halt over the next three centuries. This is no coincidence in my opinion.

Please tell how Muslims carried civilization forward after the fall of Rome. Muslims have been agressively conquering their nieghbors since the beginning of the religion, and practicing slavery, and oppression of those who did not join their religion. This is all well recorded.

When the crudades began, Europe and the Middle East were essentially technologically the same. Europe was not militarily agressive, it was the Muslim states that were militarily agressors. Muslim agression forced Europe to come together to defend itself. This lead to the overthrow of the Catholic control over Europe, which lead to an age of enlightment and technological expansion in Europe. The Middle East will never emerge from the dark ages until they throw off Islam. All they can do at this time is copy technology developed by the more advanced nations of the Earth, and this will remain so until they revolt against Islam.

reply to post by Dermo


All Christianity started from Christ, and his ministry. That means from the Middle East.

How Christianity changed after Constantinople, now that is where the real questions began.

During the Religious Wars and Spanish Inquisition in Europe Muslim communities offered a safe haven for many free thinking Christians.

Since then things have changed dramatically.

Christianity has developed and progressed into essentially a very tolerant religion, (despite the efforts of some of the more evangellical)

Islam has regressed to such an extent that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism is the single, biggest threat we face in this world today.

Wahabism and other fundamental interpretations are brutal, barbaric, intolerant, unforgiving, tyranical and confrontational beliefs.
The very essence of this brand of Islam is one of the uncompromising, continual advancement and imposition of their beliefs, (by any means necessary), on everyone.

Any attempt at the imposition of Sharia Law in the UK will be resisted.

Originally posted by poet1b
Sorry, but after the fall of Rome, the Eastern portion carried on for a while afterwards, but all forward advancement simply stopped after the final fall of Rome in the 6th century. In reality, the advancement of civilization stopped pretty much at the time that Rome became Christian in the 4th century. After the establishment of the Christianity under Constantine, Roman civilization slowly ground to a halt over the next three centuries. This is no coincidence in my opinion.

I am aware of the East?West split in the Roman Empire, probably more so than you give me credit for. I am well read on Roman History, but was merely simplifying it for the sake of the paragraph I was writing. I merely pointed out that after Rome, Europe was stuck in a technological "dark age", hence the name.

I concur with your sentiments about the rise of Christianity and the decline of Rome, however. They seem to go hand in hand.

Originally posted by poet1b
Please tell how Muslims carried civilization forward after the fall of Rome. Muslims have been agressively conquering their nieghbors since the beginning of the religion, and practicing slavery, and oppression of those who did not join their religion. This is all well recorded.

For someone who seems to give the impression they know history, your woefully ignorant of significant portions of it.

Practising slavery? So was the Christian West! Both regions profitted nicely off the back of African slavery.

And you paint the picture of the West being all benign and peaceful, whereas the Arabs where agressors. Medieval Europe was a constant battleground between Kings, Lords and such without a single muslim being involved! Go read up on history, because if you continue to spout this nonsense, I am going to make you look the fool.

The Arab world was, for quite some time, the centre of learning for much of the known world. Mathematics and natural science flourished, for example.

In fact, the work that Arabs did on Mathematics was so profound, we actually use numerals based on Arabic numbering and they have left a significant impression on mathematics ever since! As a mathmetician and engineering student, I am accutely aware of their impact.

Why not do some light reading on the subject?

When the crudades began, Europe and the Middle East were essentially technologically the same. Europe was not militarily agressive, it was the Muslim states that were militarily agressors. Muslim agression forced Europe to come together to defend itself. This lead to the overthrow of the Catholic control over Europe, which lead to an age of enlightment and technological expansion in Europe. The Middle East will never emerge from the dark ages until they throw off Islam. All they can do at this time is copy technology developed by the more advanced nations of the Earth, and this will remain so until they revolt against Islam.

Oh please! Talk about getting things all in knots! Both sides where as guilty as the other. Depending on which particular crusade you look at, both sides where agressors at one point or another.

And the crusades did not lead to the overthrow of the catholic church. Oh my god, are you making this stuff up as you go along?

It is such a complicated subject, with so many differing causes and events that simply saying "Muslim agression forced Europe to come together to defend itself. This lead to the overthrow of the Catholic control over Europe" is such an over simplification and grossly inaccurate that I could not even begin to address it here in this thread without seriously derailing it away from the OP. Feel free to start a thread and I will chime in there, however.

[edit on 18/8/08 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


Well, we might be able to meet on the level if maybe you would stop taking things so personal, and stop with the personal insults.

When did slave trade begin with African slaves, and how long did it continue? Compare the history of slavery in Western Europe with slavery in the Middle East, I think you might find a huge difference. Slavery was practiced by Britains and other north western Europeans for only a very brief period in the history of the people. This reality is ignored all too often.

Yeah, the Muslims did retain a great deal of knowledge from ancient Greece and Rome that the Catholic church did not want any part of, but from my understanding, it was due to their obsession with astronomy, and they did little else for the field. Certainly they did not make the kinds of contributions to mathematics that the Greeks did, or the Europeans starting from the time of the Renaisance.

Like an earlier poster stated, mainly the technology Muslims possessed, was borrowed. Sure, there was progress around the world in many areas of technology, in the Muslim world as well as in Europe. The Vikings certainly did their share with the development of ships. The Muslims were still relying on conquered slaves to row their ships while the Vikings were crossing the Atlantic. Still, until the Renaisance in Europe, the world over was caught in a period of slow technological growth. After the aquaducts for Rome were destroyed, there was not a city with running water in the Eastern Hemisphere until long after the Renaisance.

I never claimed the Europeans were innocents, but the reality of the Muslim world's conflict with Europe is that the Muslims were the agressors until European technology over whelmed them. I think you should look up when the Moors conquer Spain. You might also want to look at Muslim conquests of Africa and India.

Most historians look at the Crusades as the beginning of the end of Catholic domination of Europe. There is a great deal of history to speak of to illustrate this, but this tends to be the prime theory of the era. If anyone should be having to explain themselves about their position on this, it would be you, as your opinion is against the mainstream on this matter.

Is this off subject? Maybe? It was the British defeat of the Spanish Armada that essentially broke Catholic power and control over Europe. Being that Christianity is a religion with a Middle Eastern origin like Islam, seems appropriate to me in discussing how Britain migh best establish their laws.