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Why do Masons always ask for evidence when it's in front of them?

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posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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Masonic Sub-Group Under Federal Investigation for Prostitution, Slavery, and Sex Trafficking

I have written about my experiences of being a victim of Masonic abuse on ATS many times only to be confronted by the collective and accusatory howls of “madness” by members I surmise to be Freemasons. Some do suggest that there are groups that could be pretending to be Freemasons that are exercising the white glove treatment. If that is case, then the name of Freemasonry is being driven through the mud. One would think that dedicated Freemasons would be as exercised as I in exposing this criminality. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Fair minded individuals have stepped up and challenged these personal attacks, for which I am grateful. Of course the accusations were revised when it was pointed out that a mad man would find it difficult to maintain a coherent argument. Example below;



It is quite possible for someone to be mentally unstable and otherwise appear normal. Suffering from severe paranoia and delusions of grandeur does not at all mean that you can't type correctly or communicate in a normal fashion. People who are trying to defend the OP here are doing the mental health community an injustice by reinforcing negative stereotypes. Most people who suffer from mental illness look and act completely normal. Its what they do to themselves in their own mind and behind closed doors that signals the mental health issue. Just because you have mental health problems doesn't mean you have to be chained up and put in a padded room, or that your only capable of mumbling and foaming at the mouth!


Apparently the commenter believes that someone can be insane internally (whatever that means) and in the privacy of their home yet be perfectly functional in public.




Gang stalking is a symptom of extreme delusions of grandeur combined with paranoia.


Having failed dismally in his mental gymnastics, the commenter reverts to the standard Masonic argument that victims of gangstalking are suffering from a series of psychiatric illnesses. I do believe these two positions are incongruous but are used interchangeably by Freemasons.

Now with regards to the title of my posting; I think that Freemasonry has been infiltrated by criminal gangs, racists and bigots. Some of these groups appear to be very specific in their agendas and readily exploit the extensive networks offered by Freemasonry. Organised stalking is one of the many tools they use and is facilitated by a corrupted membership amongst the ranks of the brethren.

Some of these rogue and criminal elements in Freemasonry form ad hoc ‘fun’ lodges or are also members of sub-Masonic organisations to distance their criminal activities and agendas from the mother organisation. This allows for Freemasonry to turn a blind eye, reduce liability and allow for culpable deniability.

Case I

An attorney and member of two Masonic sub-groups has pleaded guilty to one felony count of conspiring to violate the Mann act after admitting to driving a prostitute across state lines so she could be sold for sex to members of the Royal Order of Jesters at one of their weekend stag parties. Link sandyfrost.newsvine.com... of-jesters?threadId=331954&cmt=2463884#c2463884

Case II

Prominent Freemason paedophile teacher beat boys mercilessly with hosepipe
A prominent and respected Peterborough schoolteacher has been jailed for six years after being convicted of abusing two young boys,...
Link www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk...

Contd. below....

[edit on 15-8-2008 by masonwatcher]




posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 08:08 PM
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Case III

Life and times of Britain's most infamous villain – Head of a Masonic Lodge
The life of Kenneth Noye has been one of malevolence and corruption. It is an example of how someone eagerly embracing crime as a profession can accumulate enormous wealth and frightening power. It is also a lesson on how vulnerable society can be to such a single-minded predator. Contd.
Link www.independent.co.uk...

Case IV

The item below is one of many points and concerns raised by non-Freemasons MPs of serious and extensive Masonic corruption in the UK.

Hansard - 9 May 2001 : Column 242

Record of Parliamentary debate

The council's planning committee has been chaired since the last election by Councillor Brian Kentfield, a past master of a masonic lodge in Battle and a close colleague of the recently deceased councillor who was the subject of many of the allegations to which I have alluded. If integrity is to be seen to be preserved, it is for Councillor Kentfield to take the initiative and to seek an independent review by someone completely free of connections with freemasonry. Other members of the planning committee have spoken freely of heavy-handed lobbying by senior colleagues over planning decisions put before them. For the sake of Mrs. Ward-Jones, and for the council's good name, these matters should be examined impartially and without further delay.

When Mr. Johnson first drew my attention to these allegations of planning abuse, and the collusion against Mrs. Ward-Jones by what he regarded as a few unscrupulous fellow freemasons, Contd.
Link www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk...

Case V

Detective held over axe murder over gangland hit – Family believe the gangsters and the investigating Ex-Det Sgt Sid Fillery are lodge brothers. The courts case is on going.

A DETECTIVE who investigated the axe murder of private eye Danny Morgan was one of six men under arrest today.
Ex-Det Sgt Sid Fillery is being held over the crime which has haunted Scotland Yard for more than 20 years.
A hand-picked team of officers have been working at a secret base away from New Scotland Yard for the last two years to avoid their investigation being compromised.
Before joining the squad, officers were asked to declare they had never been Freemasons over concerns by Danny’s family that Lodge members were linked to the murder.
Link www.thesun.co.uk...



posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 09:39 PM
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The one thing I've noticed in each of these cases is that each of these cases represented a individual, or one or two members. Most these folks you've listed didn't know each other.
It's about the same as listing Christians evil and twisted because of the folks who stand out in traffic with their signs.
That said, some of these folks I am surprised they were able to join with a established record, but it seems some of them were pretty good at social engineering.

But all you're showing is that individuals, who are Masons, just like individuals, who are Christians, have been found to have committed illegal acts.
I can do that with any particular group of people, but that doesn't make a statement of the group as a whole.



posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by RuneSpider
But all you're showing is that individuals, who are Masons, just like individuals, who are Christians, have been found to have committed illegal acts.
I can do that with any particular group of people, but that doesn't make a statement of the group as a whole.
Indeed. It is possible that there are black Muslim criminals living in Tottingham. It's even possible that some subset of said criminals may have even lived in Harrogate for several years previously. Does this cast suspicion on you as an individual? Not warranted, but yes, you could get some backlash by being pigeonholed by external qualifications. But is the interior qualifications that distinguish a good and just man from a criminal.

To generalize that Freemasons turn a blind eye to criminals within their ranks is just as bad as generalizing Freemasons as criminals. Individuals may be criminals. Individuals may turn a blind eye to criminals. I see no indication that there's an institution-wide policy that promotes either.



posted on Aug, 16 2008 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by RuneSpider
But all you're showing is that individuals, who are Masons, just like individuals, who are Christians, have been found to have committed illegal acts.
I can do that with any particular group of people, but that doesn't make a statement of the group as a whole.
Indeed. It is possible that there are black Muslim criminals living in Tottingham. It's even possible that some subset of said criminals may have even lived in Harrogate for several years previously. Does this cast suspicion on you as an individual? Not warranted, but yes, you could get some backlash by being pigeonholed by external qualifications. But is the interior qualifications that distinguish a good and just man from a criminal.

To generalize that Freemasons turn a blind eye to criminals within their ranks is just as bad as generalizing Freemasons as criminals. Individuals may be criminals. Individuals may turn a blind eye to criminals. I see no indication that there's an institution-wide policy that promotes either.



Maybe you right and Freemasons are not criminals or involved in organised stalking as I allege. That means I owe Freemasonry a profound apology. I also note that you know that I am African, Muslim, live in Tottenham and had lived in Harrogate. That's obviously not a chanced guess so you must also know that I have committed no crime and entirely respectful of my country and the community I live in.

My question; is this external qualification some kind of profiling and by whom? Further, surveillance is one thing but organised stalking is both a direct attack and aims to disrupt a life for the worst; what is the purpose and how does it profit the abuser? All they have achieved is in teaching me how psychological warfare is conducted against the person and according to your position, caused me to blame the wrong party.

More interestingly, many of the other victims I have met are nothing like me and are from all sections of society. I also realise some of these victims may not be genuine.



posted on Aug, 16 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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I edited this post as it was not going to lead to anything productive. Apologies.


[edit on 16-8-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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It really does worry me to see an individual so wraped up in hate that you are consumed by it. Perhaps you should channel your energy into something usefull. Your tireless search for evil masons seems like it always ends the same. You find one guy who committed a crime and happens to be a mason. Have you comitted a crime and therefore not able to become a mason? Is that where your hatred comes from? I am sure there are some bad masons out there. I doubt they are stalking you. I think the only one chasing you are the other people in your head. Please get some help as the hate will only eat you up from the inside. Brotherly love is a much better way to live.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by Mason mike
 


I only hope what you say was true but unfortunately people connected to Freemasonry are employing the white glove treatment against me and many others in the UK. Look, evil happens and is banal; to deny people's complaints is both inhuman and contributory to the suffering in this world. It is an onus up on you as a fair minded individual to be aware of these corruptions in our society and make a stand against it at least in principle.

An ATS member, JoshNorton, commented above on my personal details. I can only surmise that for him to have any of my details is a consequence of the organised stalking and harassment I have been put through in the past four years. Of course he could have hacked into ATS, got my ip address then hacked my internet provider secured my name and address then done a background check to pull a fast one here.

This was our exchange;





Joshnorton

Indeed. It is possible that there are black Muslim criminals living in Tottingham. It's even possible that some subset of said criminals may have even lived in Harrogate for several years previously. Does this cast suspicion on you as an individual? Not warranted, but yes, you could get some backlash by being pigeonholed by external qualifications. But is the interior qualifications that distinguish a good and just man from a criminal. To generalize that Freemasons turn a blind eye to criminals within their ranks is just as bad as generalizing Freemasons as criminals. Individuals may be criminals. Individuals may turn a blind eye to criminals. I see no indication that there's an institution-wide policy that promotes either.




masonwatcher


Maybe you right and Freemasons are not criminals or involved in organised stalking as I allege. That means I owe Freemasonry a profound apology. I also note that you know that I am African, Muslim, live in Tottenham and had lived in Harrogate. That's obviously not a chanced guess so you must also know that I have committed no crime and entirely respectful of my country and the community I live in.

My question; is this external qualification some kind of profiling and by whom? Further, surveillance is one thing but organised stalking is both a direct attack and aims to disrupt a life for the worst; what is the purpose and how does it profit the abuser? All they have achieved is in teaching me how psychological warfare is conducted against the person and according to your position, caused me to blame the wrong party. More interestingly, many of the other victims I have met are nothing like me and are from all sections of society. I also realise some of these victims may not be genuine.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
An ATS member, JoshNorton, commented above on my personal details. I can only surmise that for him to have any of my details is a consequence of the organised stalking and harassment I have been put through in the past four years. Of course he could have hacked into ATS, got my ip address then hacked my internet provider secured my name and address then done a background check to pull a fast one here.
Or, the simple solution is, I know nothing about you that you haven't already publicly posted on ATS.

  1. In the thread Sniffer dogs offend Muslims you wrote "I am a regular public transport user and both black and a Muslim."
  2. In the thread Am I Racist you wrote "Having lived in Harrogate for several years, I used to visit Leeds quite often."
  3. In the thread So How Can One Mason Know That All Masons Are Innocent? you wrote "I have also put my complaints to my local police station, Tottenham;"


No hacking required. No stalking required. Simply 5 minutes of skimming your previous posts. Anyone on ATS has access to the same information I do. And, for that matter, I'm sure I've let personal information about myself slip in my own posts, if you dug deep enough. But I don't feel like everyone's out to get me, so if you were able to compile a collection of such slips, it wouldn't rattle me.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Amazing stunt and very cynical.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Amazing stunt and very cynical.
Perhaps. But being on the receiving end, which was more interesting to you? The idea that I'm a Freemason who, through Masonic channels got passed a dossier on you? The idea that I independently hacked ATS? Or the truth that I'm simply a Discordian who can't resist screwing with people's heads from time to time?

I mean, at first blush it was easy to believe I was part of the gang stalking by my use of such knowledge, when in fact, it was your own paranoia which lead you to jump to that conclusion.

I'm just trying to poke at the cracks and let some light in.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 01:18 PM
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Know that I'm not being malicious here. If I bore you any ill will, I could have strung you along for quite some time had I chosen to lie to you. The truth is, I got my information in the manner I described above from the threads I linked to above. But it was so much easier for you to believe I was involved in gang stalking. By showing you the truth of my own interactions with you, I'm hoping you'll re-evaluate some of the circumstances that lead you to believe you're being gang stalked. I'm sure that in many, if not all situations, there are other reasonable explanations that you've overlooked in your haste to arrive at the wrong conclusion. While I do not believe you're being stalked by ANYONE, individual nor group, even if you were being stalked by a few people it's probably not nearly as many as you believe because you seem prone to assuming that anything that goes wrong in your life is directly related to the plot against you. I hope by my demonstration I've shown that other possibilities do exist, and you should consider them before making false accusations.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Amazing stunt and very cynical.


So, let me get this straight. It would seem to your way of thinking that is was more likely that JN had hacked ATS to get your IP address, then hacked into your ISP to get name and address and then done some sort of background check? Being a Mason, he must by rights be a copper, right? Either that, or he's gang stalking you from New Jersey? Not Jersey which'd be a smidge easier (though not especially easy) but from New Jersey?

Never considered Occam's Razor, had you? How about being hoist on one's own petard?



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Even you admit that I was rattled which means you know I am genuine in my allegations of being gangstalked. Had you chosen to persist in your deception, I would have eventually found out how you went about your stunt.

I admit you fooled me, but does it mean that you can dismiss my complaints? No it doesn't, it only proves that you pulled a fast one. So we need to ask why would you go so much trouble to comb through all my comments in the past year to conduct such a contrivance? You simply wanted to rattle an organised stalking victim.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by JoshNorton
 


Amazing stunt and very cynical.


So, let me get this straight. It would seem to your way of thinking that is was more likely that JN had hacked ATS to get your IP address, then hacked into your ISP to get name and address and then done some sort of background check? Being a Mason, he must by rights be a copper, right? Either that, or he's gang stalking you from New Jersey? Not Jersey which'd be a smidge easier (though not especially easy) but from New Jersey?

Never considered Occam's Razor, had you? How about being hoist on one's own petard?



No it is not my way of thinking that JN would have hacked his way through to my personal details. It was an improbable proposal juxtaposed with his possible source of information. Maybe I was not clear enough or maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Incidentally, isn't being hoisted by ones own petard a classic masonic tactic? Of course the hoist is the hang man's noose and the petard is the victim's deeds. The task is to bring them together by hook or by crook and JN exemplified this skill perfectly.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by JoshNorton
 


I would have eventually found out how you went about your stunt.


But would you have admitted it? Certainly, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to expect that you'd be continuing to cite JN as part of the "organised stalking" crew, now does it?


Originally posted by masonwatcher
I admit you fooled me, but does it mean that you can dismiss my complaints?


Not necessarily. But it certainly gives an additional perspective on their likelihood.


Originally posted by masonwatcher
So we need to ask why would you go so much trouble to comb through all my comments in the past year to conduct such a contrivance? You simply wanted to rattle an organised stalking victim.


By JN's own admission, the amount of time was small and by extension the trouble minor. Maybe he wanted to show to you just how easily you misinterpret and misconstrue events.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 





By JN's own admission, the amount of time was small and by extension the trouble minor. Maybe he wanted to show to you just how easily you misinterpret and misconstrue events.


I disagree, it is an effort and scholarly but the the intent is questionable. You have to consider the motives for such a deception. He admitted he wanted to rattle an organised stalking victim. Whether he is involve in my stalking or harassment is something I never claimed. My allegation is simply that some Freemasons part take in organised stalking and other criminal endevours.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher

No it is not my way of thinking that JN would have hacked his way through to my personal details.

Forgetting this exact quote are we?


Originally posted by masonwatcher
An ATS member, JoshNorton, commented above on my personal details. I can only surmise that for him to have any of my details is a consequence of the organised stalking and harassment I have been put through in the past four years. Of course he could have hacked into ATS, got my ip address then hacked my internet provider secured my name and address then done a background check to pull a fast one here.

You only presented two options, neither of which are likely.

A: Organised stalking involving an individual living 3000 miles and one ocean distant from you.

B: Hacking ATS and your ISP and somehow doing a background check (although you've yet to explain how that would have been accomplished)

JN presented the option "C" that you either chose not to consider or didn't consider and which would have been somewhat more likely an avenue for the information. That and it's verifiable for themselves by anyone reading this thread who'd care to do so.


Originally posted by masonwatcher
It was an improbable proposal juxtaposed with his possible source of information. Maybe I was not clear enough or maybe you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Of course, you don't identify which of your notions is the "improbable" and which the "possible" (though honestly, they're both improbable at best). I think you were clear as to what you intended at that moment and there's certainly nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. Thank you for asking though.


Originally posted by masonwatcher
Incidentally, isn't being hoisted by ones own petard a classic masonic tactic? Of course the hoist is the hang man's noose and the petard is the victim's deeds. The task is to bring them together by hook or by crook and JN exemplified this skill perfectly.

Hmmm....interesting. Doesn't seem to correlate with any definition here. Perhaps you could provide a link to some reputable source that uses it in the manner you refer to.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


I disagree, it is an effort and scholarly but the the intent is questionable.


"Effort"? "Scholarly"? By that definition, everyone who's ever Googled is a scholar in your book. Large book. As for the intent, he's pretty obviously applying Occam's Razor to your posited Rube Goldberg assertions.


Originally posted by masonwatcher
You have to consider the motives for such a deception.


He didn't deceive you. He was quite straightforward as to the origin of the information. He only suggested that had he been of a mind to, he could have let you take the bait like a trout and in fact, you would have.

In fact, his response was:

Originally posted by JoshNorton
I mean, at first blush it was easy to believe I was part of the gang stalking by my use of such knowledge, when in fact, it was your own paranoia which lead you to jump to that conclusion.



Originally posted by masonwatcher
He admitted he wanted to rattle an organised stalking victim.


Doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. His response was:


Originally posted by JoshNorton
Know that I'm not being malicious here. If I bore you any ill will, I could have strung you along for quite some time had I chosen to lie to you.



Originally posted by masonwatcher
Whether he is involve in my stalking or harassment is something I never claimed. My allegation is simply that some Freemasons part take in organised stalking and other criminal endevours.


Pretty thin line between a claim and an insinuation. In any case, your "claim" of Mason stalking is pretty wafer-thin stuff if it's of the same value as your concerns about JN's accessing information about you.



posted on Aug, 17 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 





"Effort"? "Scholarly"? By that definition, everyone who's ever Googled is a scholar in your book. Large book. As for the intent, he's pretty obviously applying Occam's Razor to your posited Rube Goldberg assertions.


Yes scholarly and effort; the man speculatively read my postings stretching back a year back. To what end put collect any information he could. I consider that weird. In fact it also displays a stalker personality.




He didn't deceive you. He was quite straightforward as to the origin of the information. He only suggested that had he been of a mind to, he could have let you take the bait like a trout and in fact, you would have.


He was quite straightforward in his agenda, deception. He harvested my postings, recycled it and passed off as ominous knowledge. It was shocking as it was meant to be.

In the face of Freemasonry, we are all trouts ready to be skinned.




Originally posted by JoshNorton

I mean, at first blush it was easy to believe I was part of the gang stalking by my use of such knowledge, when in fact, it was your own paranoia which lead you to jump to that conclusion.


If gangstalking doesn't make you paranoid, then you must be insane. A healthy amount of paranoia keeps you alive otherwise you would walk out into traffic without looking all the time.




Pretty thin line between a claim and an insinuation. In any case, your "claim" of Mason stalking is pretty wafer-thin stuff if it's of the same value as your concerns about JN's accessing information about you.


Not really. The internet allows for free exchange of information. At the time of JD's deception, I surmised that he may have access to a Masonic stalking forum with all the victims photographs and personal details plastered all over the place. Is there such a forum?






Re; hoisted by ones own petard

Hmmm....interesting. Doesn't seem to correlate with any definition here. Perhaps you could provide a link to some reputable source that uses it in the manner you refer to.


I know what is the literal definition. But I also imparted my take on how masons attack an individual by weaponising their own deeds against them. A different take on being hoisted by one's on petard when the pertard is not a grenade but a shield or any other defensive devise.

Publicising masonic grudges is my defense to the attack of organised stalking and I am still young with many years left. I only hope to take a tiny junk out of Freemasonry and encourage other victims to do the same until it stops.



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