just let them believe in creationism

reply to post by fmcanarney


No, you are delusional. It isn't an emotive word - it's an accurate description of your view of the universe.

Lets discuss what Delusional means Dave.
A single handsome wealthy man is waited on in a restaurant by a pretty and intelligent waitress. The waitress works extra hard. The man tips her three cents. The waitress says, "I can tell you that the first of the three cents indicates you are rich." The man said yes thats true. The waitress continues, "The second penny indicates that you are a bachelor." The man agees and said "Yes, and what does the third penny tell you?" The waitress replies, "That your father is too!!"

Every ant colony in the world is goverened identically, Every gorilla colony is identically goverened, same for swarms of bees, flocks of geese. But when it comes to humans, some are republics, some dictatorships, some oligarchies, and other forms of govt. If free will and nondeterministic theory are not present, than why so many variations in governance?

Because evolution begets determinism it does not permit free will.
Hence all humans would be governed by identical masters like the animal kingdom in which we belong. We would swarm like bees, march like colonies of ants, flock like chickens, fly like gaggles of geese, and we dont, because we have free will which sets us over apart and above.

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Because evolution begets determinism it does not permit free will.

Animals don't have free will? What on earth are you talking about? If you walk up to a dog, it has the free will to either bite your hand off or wag it's tail.

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Hence all humans would be governed by identical masters like the animal kingdom in which we belong. We would swarm like bees, march like colonies of ants, flock like chickens, fly like gaggles of geese, and we dont, because we have free will which sets us over apart and above.

Um, no. All this proves is that we are not bees, ants, chickens, or geese. I could have looked in the mirror and determined that. We do what we do because we can do it. Other animals have to stay organized to survive. You could just as easily say that our government is evidence for evolution, as we have a system to survive just as any other animal does. If you want to try to disprove evolution, then do so with science or logic and not with assumption.

If aminals have free will, then arguing backwards through evolution, at what point in the progression backwards does free will cease to exist?
Somewhere between a dog and an amoeba? Or does a germ have free will also?

fmcanarney, there are fatal flaws in these arguments.

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Every ant colony in the world is goverened identically, Every gorilla colony is identically goverened, same for swarms of bees, flocks of geese. But when it comes to humans, some are republics, some dictatorships, some oligarchies, and other forms of govt. If free will and nondeterministic theory are not present, than why so many variations in governance?

If you do some research you will see that all these animals you mention, in fact organise themselves in many different ways, for example, the social bee and the solitary bee.

Bees

This is exactly the same as humans and our different forms of governance. Like humans, other species of animals, organise themselves socially in a huge variety of different ways

So your comment that all bees, ants, gorillas and geese organise themselves in exactly the same way the world over is wrong.

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Hence all humans would be governed by identical masters like the animal kingdom in which we belong. We would swarm like bees, march like colonies of ants, flock like chickens, fly like gaggles of geese, and we dont, because we have free will which sets us over apart and above.

Yes we do. Tribes, villages, towns, cities, civillisations.

All humans societies have leaders and rules on how to live in that society.

Exactly the same as all other groups of animals

As far as our "identical masters" go:

Bush, Blair, Howard ... and that is just from so called Democratic countries.

All forms of government are essentially the same:

A way to rule over the public ... In the context of this argument the details are not important.

[edit on 7/9/08 by Horza]

Answer my question then.
Here it is again.
From the germ to human when does free will begin?
At what point in the evolutionary model does free will exhibit itself?
Or why can't cats start fires?

I hope this is not one of those questions that not even one single evolutionist knows the answer to.


[edit on 8-9-2008 by fmcanarney]

reply to post by fmcanarney


Not more of this rubbish. Read about free will here: Free will then get back to us.

And as for cats not being able to start fires - lower intelligence and a lack of opposable thumbs might have something to do with it. The same reasons you don't get many fruit flies teaching English in Ivy League schools.

Originally posted by Slothrop
those of us who are Awake understand fully what a red herring the creation vs evolution debate has become.
_______________________________________________________
Science has yet to explain how to get a universe from nothing, yet they can explain the complexities of the origins of life. Hmm...
_______________________________________________________

no sane, intelligent person can deny that some version of the evolutionary model is the best explanation for the progression of life on planet earth. but here's the thing: just let those who prefer to be Asleep believe in creationism.
____________________________________________
I deny that evolution is valid and sure. My IQ is 150+
____________________________________________

it's really no skin off my back. the smarter kids will immediately dismiss whatever creationist propaganda is taught in public schools and get on with their studies. as for the dumber kids....i really don't care if the guy who changes my oil or takes my order at quizno's believes the earth is 5000 years old and that dinosaur bones were just put inside the earth to test our faith. as long as they can change my oil and make my change, eh.
_________________________________________________________
Yes it is and your hatred of anything having to do with God is showing. Peopl like you are the same as the Nazis who only believed what their little minds thought and to prove it they had to dininish others to boast themselves up. That guy changing the oil and getting your Pizza may be an evolutionist just like you, biggot.

As for me, I am a Christian and a very successful business person who has two businesses, a large house, two cars, etc. I also share what God has blessed me with with others based on respect and love for other people without wanting anything in return.

So, drink the cool aid if you must, but you have no idea of what you talk about.
__________________________________________________________

creationism v evolution is a total non-issue

[edit on 8-9-2008 by Fromabove]

reply to post by Fromabove


Care to re-write that in a form that makes sense?

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Answer my question then.
Here it is again.
From the germ to human when does free will begin?
At what point in the evolutionary model does free will exhibit itself?
Or why can't cats start fires?

I hope this is not one of those questions that not even one single evolutionist knows the answer to.

When do babies get free will? They start in the womb and (according to your belief of what free will is), have no free will. When they get older and become more conscious, then free will becomes more apparent. Just as when something evolves and becomes more conscious of the choices it makes.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by fmcanarney

 

Not more of this rubbish. Read about free will here: Free will then get back to us.
Dave I already know more about Free Will than you do.

And as for cats not being able to start fires - lower intelligence and a lack of opposable thumbs might have something to do with it. The same reasons you don't get many fruit flies teaching English in Ivy League schools.

Where in the evolutionary chain of uninterrupted continuous thread from you Dave to the germ on your finger does free will become evident?

If you are going to be evolutionists then You Dave have no free will.
You are nothing more than adapting to and reacting to your environment, like an grasshopper. No free will comes from evolutionists thinking process and theory being extended to its full truth and full reality. You really are not choosing to write me back or not, you have no volitionary capabilities.

Creationists have a free will. God given.
If you have free will then you are not an evolutionist in truth.

You see and percieve this following statement with your high IQ.
IN TRUTH THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION.

I believe that God created everything there is, inlcuding you and me.


Seriously, do you think that you will sway people who know, by your claims to know better than God?


God will have the last word.

It's just a matter of time, my friend. Just a matter of time.


And you've got time, haven't you?

I know about free will and babies.

I want to know if a germ has free will, if not a germ, then does an ant have free will, if not an ant then does a cat, you get the drift here??

Where in your uninterrupted evolutionary chain of life does free will become aparent??? Not in the life span of a human, but in the evolutionary chain. Ok from the replicator to homo sapiens.

Remember this though:
IN TRUTH THERE CAN BE NO CONTRADICTION.

reply to post by fmcanarney


Why doesn't a cat start a fire?

Because the cat doesn't want to.

This "free will" argument is a big man full of straw.

Definitions of "free will" and whether or not it exists is an argument that has never been won.

I don't think we at ATS, as smart and as wise as we are, will solve it here, in this thread.

It comes down to the OP statement

I will not argue against your belief in the Creationsim.

However, I will never understand why religion puts humanity on a pedestal.

Humans are a life form, no more and no less.

To say that we are more than that is just fear and ego talking.

Thats ok ... it's a big universe out there ... and yes, it's a bit scarey, I know ... but we will make it through. Have faith

edit - spelling

[edit on 8/9/08 by Horza]

Hey now, humanity should be put on a pedastal! We're the only species that has invented art: monumental architecture, music, painting, sculpting etc. We're the ones who command our environments, we travelled off-planet to other bodies within our solar system and we are the ones who created the concepts of love, compassion and altruism (nothing in nature is truly altrusitic) and a thousand other non-tangible things that humans rely on to get through their day-to-day lives.

We're bloody great. What I don't need, is some idiot telling me that we actually aren't so great. That we owe it all to someone - like we didn't do it ourselves! Like it wasn't human hands that built the pyramids, agonisingly, stone-by-stone, or like it wasn't your mother who taught you what compassion was when you first scraped your knee as a child.

And this, all this, is supposed to be "God's will" and "miracles" purely because the person who is asserting religion has no idea what the hell is going on, and so decides they will, literally, make it up.

If you don't know, and claiming belief in a mystical magic-man in the sky and miracles are proof you simply don't know, then don't try to claim to do know.

It is literally that simple.

In life, there are two kinds of people: the irreligious and agnostics.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin

We're bloody great. What I don't need, is some idiot telling me that we actually aren't so great. That we owe it all to someone - like we didn't do it ourselves! Like it wasn't human hands that built the pyramids, agonisingly, stone-by-stone, or like it wasn't your mother who taught you what compassion was when you first scraped your knee as a child.

I agree ... completely ... but no greater than any other life form.

Our creations and discoveries that you talk about are simply humans living up to their potential, not exceeding it. Nothing exceeds it's potential.

That doesnt, however, take anything away from the achievement.

What I was talking about was the fundimental religious belief that humans (and in a lot of case only specific social and/or racial groups of humans) are a gods special creation and that humans have a special place by that gods side or in that gods plans. All else/others be damned.

Bollocks is what I say to this one.

Caused a little bit of grief over the years did this one ... irks me somewhat

Originally posted by fmcanarney
I know about free will and babies.

I want to know if a germ has free will, if not a germ, then does an ant have free will, if not an ant then does a cat, you get the drift here??

Where in your uninterrupted evolutionary chain of life does free will become aparent??? Not in the life span of a human, but in the evolutionary chain. Ok from the replicator to homo sapiens.

All life forms have one main purpose. To continue their life. This is our main purpose just as it is the main purpose of a dog, cat, or any other animal.

Free will simply means your free to do whatever is in your capacity to do. A germ does not have a brain, nor does it have conscious thought, therefor it does not have the capacity to do anything other than that of it's main purpose. To live.
A cat has the free will to do anything that a cat can do.
A human has the free will to do anything that a human can do.

What's the problem?

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Remember this though:
IN TRUTH THERE CAN BE NO CONTRADICTION.

Then why do you believe in the Bible? There are so many contradictions it's not funny. And you claim evolution as being contradictory?

Good comments on potential truthparadox.
Again, being called and referred to by some of the names flung at creationists, I trust that the evolution of language in those individual evolutionists speaks volumes of their personal evolution of living up to their full potential. Language is a true reflection of thought and intelligence.

Originally posted by Horza
What I was talking about was the fundimental religious belief that humans (and in a lot of case only specific social and/or racial groups of humans) are a gods special creation and that humans have a special place by that gods side or in that gods plans. All else/others be damned.

I know, I just wanted to stipulate that it is easy to see how the religious-types came to think we are so great - we are.

That doesn't mean we were made great by the hands of another, we are great because of our own sweat.