Amazon Bans Book "Judaism Discovered."

reply to post by Beelzebubba


If the guy thinks he's not infringing on intellectual rights then he needs to go to court about it and stop acting as if it some kind of conspiracy especially since Amazon sells Mein Kampf and the moronic Protocols.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


How can he when the identity of the aggrieved party is unknown to him. I would think as far as pursuing the case in the courts goes, it would be up to this "rabbi" as he is the person who has made these allegations.

reply to post by Beelzebubba


Im not a lawyer...yet, but I would bet he could take Amazon to court over the issue. The question is now, would he accept a Jewish lawyer defending him in court.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Just something funny to note... not sure if you all noticed. David Zapolsky VP and General Council of Amazon??

Nice combo, no? Vice president and head shark.

Watch those teeth, Mac!

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I'm no lawyer, but here is my take.

Why would an author who has just financed the publication of his own book expend the time, energy, and (most importantly) money suing Amazon who, as a comglomerate are only refusing to sell his book as a reaction to complaints by a third party. Whichever way any potential judgment comes down, there is the chance the author loses even if he is successful.
Amazon's actions are clearly motivated by a desire to avoid litigaton and on the balance of things, pissing off an individual author pales into insignificance when compared with the voracity of certain influential parties as a whole.
Any legal action should be initiated by the Rabbi, who has an issue with the content for Breach of "intellectual property." Amazon should remain impartial as with any other publication which raises the ire of a particular demographic, until such a time as a judgment is made either in favour of the Rabbi - in which case they may be compelled to remove the book, or else leave the public to decide what they want to spend their money on.
If you aren't interested in the content, don't buy the book, its a pretty simple premise.
Otherwise, don't interfere with the well-established Constitutional right to free speech and the freedom of the press. Whether or not the content is offensive is not for Amazon to decide, as long as the author isn't breaking any laws, I am pretty sure he is entitled to write whatever he wants and call it whatever he chooses.
Also, if accusations about criminal activity were all that was required to ensure actions are taken against somebody - makes a bit of a mockery of the 'presumption of innocence' wouldn't you say?





[edit on 22/8/2008 by Beelzebubba]

MikeboydUS


Judaism IS anti-bible because it's anti-Jesus Christ. The Talmud takes precedence over the Torah, the Talmud is the holiest book in Judaism not the Torah

the vast majority of Jews don't have to be orthodox to believe in the Talmud. The Talmud is judaism plain and simple.

Even then the Orthodox themselves break down into further groups all with different beliefs. There are many sects of Judaism.

then ANYTHING can be Judaism!! All with different beliefs!!..... You can't have your cake and eat it too, the Talmud is Judaism plain and simple.

and numerous smaller groups, plus ethnic differences in beliefs and practices from Yemeni Jews, Kenyan Jews, Moroccan Jews, Indian Jews, and even Jews in China.

this is beyond illogical, this is plain dishonesty. Talmudism (Judaism) clearly has racist undertones and doesn't tolerate "ethnic differences in beliefs and practices", whatever THAT is.... Talmudism (Judaism) is a strict set of rules and beliefs and such chutzpah coming from you isn't going to change that

The Jewish faith and people does not end or begin with Ashkenazim or the Chabad Lubavitch movement.

This is irrelevant, Chabad Lubavitch strictly follows Judaism, (Talmudism) to the fullest extent. And how can there be a Jewish "people" if they come from all over the place?!! Middle East, Eastern Europe, China, India, Africa, but they're all 1 people aren't they??? You can't fool us with your Talmudic sophistry and labyrinthine deception. In fact your entire post was a perfect example of what Hoffman warns against

Here is a review of 'Judaism Discovered' currently on Amazon. It would seem that the "anti-semitic" tag for this title is undeserved.

Michael Hoffman has written what will likely, in 50 years, be considered the most important work on Judaism.

To clear up a couple of misconceptions, let me explain what this book is NOT.
1) The book is not the least bit 'anti-Semite'. In the pages, the love for the individual is demonstrated along with the truth about the abhorrent behaviors of organized Judaism.

2) The book is not fanciful or poorly researched. I have studied tens of thousands of pages of Judaic religious literature both in English and Hebrew, and I am stunned at Hoffman's knowledge of the Talmud within the 1102 pages. If you have in your possession - or have access to - the Talmud, I encourage you to research along in the first pages to understand further, as you will be impressed.

3) The book is not hateful. The point of this book is solely factual. The writer does not appear to be writing out of spite or hate, but rather is presenting facts and allowing the facts, given IN context, to speak for themselves.

So what exactly IS Judaism Discovered? Let the subtitle speak for itself. Judaism Discoverd is "A Study of the Anti-Biblical Religion of Racism, Self-Worship, Superstition and Deceit". Hoffman goes in great depth to show how Judaism is exactly that.

The beauty of this book is that this it done by induction. Hoffman takes the facts and then forms his overarching theory - he did not take a pre-conceived theory and deduce or manipulate the data. To compare to the practice of a good scholar, Hoffman practices exegesis, not eisegesis. He lets the facts speak, he does not manipulate the facts.

Thus - allow me to summarize in 5 words. I highly recommend this book.

Link

reply to post by Diogenes7


Diogenes7

I dont know where you are from, who you are or how you were educated.

First: Jews are not anti Jesus or anti Bible. There is an entire sect of Judaism, the Messianics, who are "Christian" Jews. Many other Jews see Jesus as a prophet or religious teacher. Just because many Jews do not think he is the son of G-d, does not make us Anti Jesus. This is fact. If it were not for the Jews, the Christians would not have the Bible, Jesus(a Jew), or the Christian faith.

As a Jew I am telling you right here and right now that the Talmud is not the holiest book in Judaism. The Torah, the Five Books of Moses, are the ultimate core and foundation of the Jewish Faith and People, period.

this is beyond illogical, this is plain dishonesty. Talmudism (Judaism) clearly has racist undertones and doesn't tolerate "ethnic differences in beliefs and practices

The Hebrews, Israelites brought Egyptians, Moabites and others into the House of Israel. At one time Jews actively ministered and encouraged gentiles to convert and be adopted into the House of Israel. Ethiopia is one of the best examples of this.

And how can there be a Jewish "people" if they come from all over the place?!! Middle East, Eastern Europe, China, India, Africa, but they're all 1 people aren't they???

You want to know how the Jewish Faith and People are all united? Its very simple. The Torah, the Five Books of Moses. They are the Universal Foundation that all Jews/Israelites have across the Earth. Whether they are in Kenya or in Shanghai, we are united by the Mitzvah that the Lord G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gave unto Moses at Sinai.

You can't fool us with your Talmudic sophistry and labyrinthine deception. In fact your entire post was a perfect example of what Hoffman warns against

If this how you truly feel, then you are beyond hope of reason. May G-d have mercy on you.

Amazon v Hoffman Update.

I simply cannot believe what is happening with this book!

Amazon has decided to act as judge and jury and has clamped down on a complete ban of Hoffman's book.

The five reviews that once existed have been deleted and re-sellers have been warned not to sell this title on Amazon.

A re-seller of the book has been in contact with Hoffman and revealed this email from Amazon.

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008. Subject: Notice: Policy Warning

Hello from Amazon.com.

We are writing to let you know the following of your listings have been cancelled:

ISBN 0970378459 "Judaism Discovered: A Study of the Anti-Biblical Religion of Racism, Self-Worship, Superstition and Deceit (Hardcover)"

We took this action because we have determined that these types of items are inappropriate for our site. As stated in our online Policies under Prohibited Content:

"If we determine that the content of a listing is prohibited, potentially illegal, or inappropriate, we will summarily remove the questionable listing, without returning listing fees. Amazon.com reserves the right to make judgments about whether content is appropriate."

For more information, please visit our Policies, located in our Help pages online: Help > Selling at Amazon.com... > Participation Agreement | Community Rules | Prohibited Content

To avoid the blocking of your selling account, please refrain from selling these items on our site.

Thank you for your cooperation and your business on Amazon.com.

Regards,
Seller Performance Team Amazon.com www.amazon.com...

Link

A bit of a reversal from this earlier quote:

Should Amazon.com sell The Protocols and other controversial works? As a bookseller, Amazon.com strongly believes that providing open access to written speech, no matter how hateful or ugly, is one of the most important things we do. It's a service that the United States Constitution protects, and one that follows a long tradition of booksellers serving as guardians of free expression in our society.

Link

I respect that Amazon retains the right to take down listings that they deem inappropriate. But to continue to sell the 'Protocols', Luther's odious 'The Jews and Their Lies, and Ford's 'The International Jew' seems quite hypocritical.

Hoffman made this rejoinder:

This is the first time that Amazon has publicly declared Judaism Discovered to be "prohibited, potentially illegal, inappropriate" and "questionable."

Author Michael Hoffman responded, "While I am aware that there are laws on the books in Canada, Australia and Europe that prohibit investigation of the Talmud and make it a crime to criticize rabbinic texts -- a Ukrainian editor is the most recent target of such prosecution -- I was under the impression that it was still legal in America to criticize the Talmud. Perhaps Amazon.com knows something I don't." Hoffman added, "As far as being 'inappropriate' and 'questionable,' I'm not sure how that would warrant interdiction of a polemical work of comparative religion in twenty-first century America."

The five reviews of Judaism Discovered that were removed by Amazon were all favorable, each reviewer giving the book five stars, the highest rating.

Thus far, Amazon's ban on Hoffman's controversial book has been ignored by all print media, with the exception of the Missouri-based Lutheran newspaper, Christian News.

Hoffman will be appearing on several radio stations over the next few weeks to discuss the contents of his 1100 page book and the ban on it.

"The old Romans observed, 'The fate of the work illustrates its argument.' In the case of the embargo on my book by Amazon, the long-arm of rabbinic power and influence over a major corporation is on display for the all the world to see," Hoffman concluded.

(LInk supplied above)

I find the message Amazon has for this listing amusing:

Sign up to be notified when this item becomes available.

Link

Shouldn't it just say, "This Item Will Never Be Available."

I am to take it that neither Amazon nor the anonymous Rabbi have replied to Hoffman concerning the "intellectual property rights" issue. As Hoffman has contacted Amazon with evidence that he maintains is "water-tight" concerning all usage of Rabbinical quotations. From Amazon... silence.

I am amazed that most of this thread has descended into an argument about Judaism itself rather than the Freedom of Speech/Press issue, which is what I honestly find most disturbing.

Would the reaction of AtSer's have been different if the book's subject matter was not so sensitive? Maybe I put this in the wrong forum?

[edit on 26/8/2008 by Beelzebubba]

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
I simply cannot believe what is happening with this book!

Excellent update, Beelzebubba. I do agree, I have not heard of something like this happening in a long time. It's book burning gone digital.

While the topics of Judaism and the Talmud and Torah and the Bible are all very much interesting to discuss in their own right, I too am a bit disappointed with how the majority of this thread is meandering off-topic.

I am interested in the crux of it all... why ban A book? Beelzebubba points out plenty of other trash the big A sells to the masses, why is this book so important restrict sales?

My feeling is that if this book had discussed controversial theories about Christianity or Islam instead of focusing primarily on Judaism, this book would have been selling away on the virtual shelves of Amazon for quite some time by now.

Around 1100 pages in this book... goodness. If anyone locates that needle in the haystack of information which may point to the alleged stolen/misuse of rabbinical intellectual property, do tell. I am sure Hoffman himself has his suspicions, has he given his thoughts on what it might be?

I wouldnt buy the book from Amazon even if they did sell it.


When you can buy it from Barnes and Nobles for $41.25 as opposed to Amazon's price of $55. Heck B&N members can get it at $37.12, plus another 5% discount for pre ordering it.

search.barnesandnoble.com...

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Good point, Mike. I'm surprised to see that actually.

I wonder why this ban is particular to Amazon? Looks like B&N is taking advantage of the situation.

Since Mike Boyd ignored my explanation of the numerous definitions of "Torah" used by the rabbis, he will probably also ignore pages 136 through 230 in Judaism Discovered. Using the words of the rabbis and the Talmud itself Hoffman shows the extent of rabbincal deceit in the effort to wrongly convince the goyim that Judaism existed before Christ and that Judaism is one and the same as that of Moses and the Israelites.

After hundreds of in-context quotes from the rabbinical literature, it should be perfectly clear to any honest reader that "Torah" is whatever the latest rabbi says is Torah.

reply to post by Yitzhak


I made completely clear what I meant by The Torah, the Five Books of Moses.

Rather than rabbis trying to convince goyim that Judaism existed before Jesus, what I see is goyim trying covince everyone that Ashkenazi Orthodox is the only form of Judaism.

It would be just as goofy if I tried to convince everyone that all Christians were Greek Orthodox or if all Muslims were Shiites.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
First: Jews are not anti Jesus or anti Bible. There is an entire sect of Judaism, the Messianics, who are "Christian" Jews. Many other Jews see Jesus as a prophet or religious teacher. Just because many Jews do not think he is the son of G-d, does not make us Anti Jesus. This is fact. If it were not for the Jews, the Christians would not have the Bible, Jesus(a Jew), or the Christian faith.

more Talmudic lies and sophistry. The fact is that Judaism is Talmudism, the entirety of Orthodox Judaism stems from the principles of the Talmud. The Talmud is inherently anti-Christian and anti-Jesus, you cannot keep calling yourself a Jew and at the same time having any reverence for Jesus. Your second lie is that Christianity stems from Judaism, this Talmudic deception is exactly what Hoffman points out and warns against with his utmost courageousness. "Judaism" was in fact made by a group of rabbis who rejected Christ and decided to write something called "Judaism" by writing the Talmud. The entirety of Judaism rests on the lie that Moses gave secret oral laws to the pharisees in which would eventually become the Talmud. This lie is nowhere mentioned at all in the Old or New Testaments, because it is a fraud. Jesus himself says if you were truly Mosaic, you would accept him because Moses brought Jesus. Jesus specifically condemned the pharisees and said something to the effect, "you nullify the word of god". There's no secret oral law that Moses handed down to the pharisees that makes up the Talmud, this is a rabbinic lie intended to fool gentiles.

As a Jew I am telling you right here and right now that the Talmud is not the holiest book in Judaism. The Torah, the Five Books of Moses, are the ultimate core and foundation of the Jewish Faith and People, period.

you are either lying or a fool yourself. Hoffman precisely clears up this sophistry:

from www.revisionisthistory.org...

The Hebrews, Israelites brought Egyptians, Moabites and others into the House of Israel. At one time Jews actively ministered and encouraged gentiles to convert and be adopted into the House of Israel. Ethiopia is one of the best examples of this.

this is completely irrelevant to the fact that Judaism is Talmudism including all the racist supremacist undertones in the Talmud. In the above passage of Hoffman's introduction, he specifically shows how Ethiopian Jews are discriminated in Israel because they aren't aware of the Talmud but only the Old Testament

You want to know how the Jewish Faith and People are all united? Its very simple. The Torah, the Five Books of Moses. They are the Universal Foundation that all Jews/Israelites have across the Earth. Whether they are in Kenya or in Shanghai, we are united by the Mitzvah that the Lord G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob gave unto Moses at Sinai.

you're an idiot. This is completely in contradiction to the racist, ethnic chauvinist elements of the Talmud. A few smart gentiles are VERY aware of what many Jews and Israelis really think about say, blacks. In fact the Talmud has clear instances of negro discrimination. Many Israeli Jews also have derogatory nicknames for Blacks, and Jews dominated the slave trade, if slave auctions fell on Jewish holidays they were postponed. Notice also the Talmud isn't just *racialist*, that is a desire to preserve one's race which isn't a bad thing in itself, it's also *racist* in that it seeks the destruction of other ethnicities and does not treat them as equals in law

If this how you truly feel, then you are beyond hope of reason. May G-d have mercy on you.

yeah ok. What do Talmudic Jews care about God when in the Talmud there's an instance of a Jew defeating God in an argument?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
As a Jew I am telling you right here and right now that the Talmud is not the holiest book in Judaism. The Torah, the Five Books of Moses, are the ultimate core and foundation of the Jewish Faith and People, period.

you are either lying or a fool yourself. Hoffman precisely clears up this sophistry:

from www.revisionisthistory.org...

The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."

The supremacy of the Talmud over the Bible in the Israeli state may also be seen in the case of the black Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopians are very knowledgeable of the Old Testament. However, their religion is so ancient it pre-dates the Scribes' Talmud, of which the Ethiopians have no knowledge. According to the N.Y. Times of Sept. 29, 1992, p.4:

"The problem is that Ethiopian Jewish tradition goes no further than the Bible or Torah; the later Talmud and other commentaries that form the basis of modern traditions never came their way."

Because they are not traffickers in Talmudic tradition, the black Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against and have been forbidden by the Zionists to perform marriages, funerals and other services in the Israeli state.

Rabbi Joseph D. Soloveitchik is regarded as one of the most influential rabbis of the 20th century, the "unchallenged leader" of Orthodox Judaism and the top international authority on halakha (Jewish religious law). Soloveitchik was responsible for instructing and ordaining more than 2,000 rabbis, "an entire generation" of Jewish leadership.

N.Y. Times religion reporter Ari Goldman described the basis of the rabbi's authority:

"Soloveitchik came from a long line of distinguished Talmudic scholars...Until his early 20s, he devoted himself almost exclusively to the study of the Talmud...He came to Yeshiva University's Elchanan Theological Seminary where he remained the pre-eminent teacher in the Talmud...He held the title of Leib Merkin professor of Talmud...sitting with his feet crossed in front of a table bearing an open volume of the Talmud." (N.Y. Times, April 10, 1993, p. 38).

Nowhere does Goldman refer to Soloveitchik's knowledge of the Bible as the basis for being one of the leading authorities on Jewish law.

The rabbi's credentials are all predicated upon his mastery of the Talmud. Other studies are clearly secondary. Britain's Jewish Chronicle of March 26, 1993 states that in religious school (yeshiva), Jews are "devoted to the Talmud to the exclusion of everything else."

The Talmud Nullifies the Bible

The Jewish Scribes claim the Talmud is partly a collection of traditions Moses gave them in oral form. These had not yet been written down in Jesus' time. Christ condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible.

Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud's Gittin Tractate, the Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending: "Hillel decreed the prozbul for the betterment of the world. The prozbul is a legal fiction which allows debts to be collected after the Sabbatical year and it was Hillel's intention thereby to overcome the fear that money-lenders had of losing their money."

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud..."