Amazon Bans Book "Judaism Discovered."

it doesn't matter if it's over 2000 years old, the fact is that the Talmud is the holiest book in Judaism, and is followed closely by the most hardline Orthodox Jews. To be a "Jew" one must follow and believe in the Talmud, and consequently all its filthy and vile trash it spews from its anal sphinctor. Yes the Talmud is anti-biblical as it makes up a lie about Moses passing down a secret oral law to the pharisees and scribes in which what would become the Talmud. There's no such oral law that Moses gave, and neither is it mentioned at all in the Old or New Testaments. Hoffman brilliantly shows Judaism to be nothing more but a rogue ideology created by certain rabbis as a reaction to their hatred of Jesus Christ and everything good. The Talmud is precisely anti-biblical because it has nothing but hate and the vilest trash to say about Jesus and his character, such a book is of the utmost anti-biblical.

Here are just some of the eye-opening verses of the Talmud and its brazen hatred of Christianity, gentiles, and non-Jews

www.revisionisthistory.org...


The knowledgeable members of AboveTopSecret Forum would be quite familiar of the erie Jewish prominence in the world's conspiracies. From the Rothschilds, to Bolshevism/Communism, to Paul Warburg's Federal Reserve, to the World Wars, to Israeli and Zionist geopolitical terrorism, to the Lavon Affair, USS Liberty, and to the present Iraq, Afghanistan, and god forbid Iran war and their erie traces to Jewish neoconservatives and zionist fanatics. All of these humanity hating events have been evidently traced to Jews and continue to be so. Perhaps the Talmud is a good reason for all these disasters and the obnoxious "anti-semitism" racket, the biggest smear term in linguistic history. Israel Shahak precisely revealed how Jews "subconsciously" harbor the views of the Talmud towards other people even if they aren't religious, it's understandable given that Jewish parents would be gagging their kids with such vile trash, any decent Jew will tell you how totalitarian and tribal Judaism is.

If an exact book challenging say Christianity or Islam were to be made, do you think Catholic or Mullah or Priest/Father objections about bull# "intellectual property" rights would convince Amazon to ban it? Not a fat chance!

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Well, one of the key arguments of Hoffman's research, actually uncovers that what is known as Judaism today, that is, Rabbinism or Talmudism, which stands in many regards in discontinuity and even opposition, in respect of the Torah. There are many key fine points in Hoffman's reasoning to support this claim.
Yes, Judaism, as a system of thought is anti-biblical or anti old testament in general and anti new testament or anti Christian in particular.
Many uninformed people wrongly believe that Judaism has it's roots in the old testament yet, Rabbinism entirely supersedes Torah teachings; just ask the Karaite Jews about this allegation.
As far back as the first century AD, one can trace the radical antagonism, between the 2nd temple Sanhedrin establishment or 'oral teachings of the elders' (Talmud), versus the Qumram and Jesus standing.
It was during the Pharisees meeting in Jamnia, (AD AD), that the written version of the Talmud was decreed and Rabbinism was born, or Judaism proper.
Judaism is a system of legalistic prescriptions and proscriptions, based in it's entirety in the Babylonian Talmud and not in the Torah of the old testament Israelites. Moreover, present day Jews are an offspring of Edom Esau and later Khazar 'Jews of the Synagogue' from the Caucasus. Non other than Josephus Flavius tells us that of the three sects of Judaism, only the Qumran people were of genuine Jacob-Israel descent and that the temple establishment people of those days, that is Pharisees mainly, were of Edom.
So our reviewer, which disqualifies Hoffman's book on the premise of Hoffman's assertion about Judaism, being an anti-biblical religion, this man knows platitudes and clisés and not fundamentals.

Respectfully.

Baregil de Gomçesval.

Michael Hoffman has written an excellent book which should be given credit, "The Israeli Holocaust Against the Palestinians", it deserves to be mentioned here.
Mr. Hoffman grew up in the Jewish Faith and it seems he has a good deal of experience--I think he should have left the Subtiles out of the Title and left it as Judiasm Discovered.
Any serious work should be one of educaional merit. Mr. Hoffman does have a wealth of knowledge and he has a right to his opinions. I think the book has merit--if others feel it does not, or is slanted then they have the opportunity to write their own book.
In the end the truth will win out.
Amazon should sell the book, end of story.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Well, one of the key arguments of Hoffman's research, actually uncovers that what is known as Judaism today, that is, Rabbinism or Talmudism, which stands in many regards in discontinuity and even opposition, in respect of the Torah. There are many key fine points in Hoffman's reasoning to support this claim.
Yes, Judaism, as a system of thought is anti-biblical or anti old testament in general and anti new testament or anti Christian in particular.
Many uninformed people wrongly believe that Judaism has it's roots in the old testament yet, Rabbinism entirely supersedes Torah teachings; just ask the Karaite Jews about this allegation.
As far back as the first century AD, one can trace the radical antagonism, between the 2nd temple Sanhedrin establishment or 'oral teachings of the elders' (Talmud), versus the Qumram and Jesus standing.
It was during the Pharisees meeting in Jamnia, (90 AD), that the written version of the Talmud was decreed and Rabbinism was born, or Judaism proper.
Judaism is a system of legalistic prescriptions and proscriptions, based in it's entirety in the Babylonian Talmud and not in the Torah of the old testament Israelites. Moreover, present day Jews are an offspring of Edom Esau and later Khazar 'Jews of the Synagogue' from the Caucasus. Non other than Josephus Flavius tells us that of the three sects of Judaism, only the Qumran people were of genuine Jacob-Israel descent and that the temple establishment people of those days, that is Pharisees mainly, were of Edom.
So our reviewer, which disqualifies Hoffman's book on the premise of Hoffman's assertion about Judaism, being an anti-biblical religion, this man knows platitudes and clisés and not fundamentals.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Judaism is not anti Torah or anti Bible, to say so is silly. The Torah is the very foundation of Judaism and the Bible.

Do you know anything about the modern sects of Judaism, practices, beliefs? Some of the ultra orthodox might get carried away with some interpretations of the Torah from the Talmud, but that is the the ultra orthodox. The vast majority of Jews on the face of the earth are not Orthodox. Even then the Orthodox themselves break down into further groups all with different beliefs. There are many sects of Judaism.

There are conservatives

There are reformists

There are messianics

There are karaites

and numerous smaller groups, plus ethnic differences in beliefs and practices from Yemeni Jews, Kenyan Jews, Moroccan Jews, Indian Jews, and even Jews in China.

I am so sick and tired about hearing about Khazars.

There were Jews living across the Middle East, the Horn of Africa and North Africa long before and after any Khazars were converted, in fact alot of those North African Jews ended up in Spain and then were kicked out of Spain in 1492 or hunted by the Inquisition.

So I dont want hear about biased stereotypical crap about Khazars or lumping all Jews together under one umbrella that would mean we thought a Hasidic rabbi in Brooklyn was the messiah. I dont want to hear these non objective and blind errors about Judaism.

The Jewish faith and people does not end or begin with Ashkenazim or the Chabad Lubavitch movement.

Well... I think this thread may have strayed a little from its intended purpose. This thread is not meant to be a debate over Judaism itself. My intent was to ponder why Amazon would ban a book that is critical of the Jewish Faith when it has no problem selling books of a much more hysterical and hateful nature (toward the Jews). And should Amazon retain the right to withold sale over "intelllectual property rights" when that is clearly a case for the courts and not Amazon.

My other question that ties into this thread is why would a book that criticizes the Jewish Faith be considered racist? As MikeboydUS pointed out, Jews are of many different ethnicities. Can a Faith be considered a race? Are all Christians of one race because of their beliefs? Are all Muslims of one race as well? Both of the latter religions have had some scathing books written about them and I'm pretty sure the authors of these books are not considered "racists." In fact Islam would have to be one of the most heavily criticized religions around. Authors of books that are critical of Islam get mention in the New York Times. Will Hoffman's Book?




[edit on 19/8/2008 by Beelzebubba]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


All of which goes to show that you are speaking in complete ignorance, because, Surprise!, Mr. Hoffman would agree with much of what you say here.

I see now that Amazon will no longer allow comments upon the book. Now, why would they do that, hmm? Could it be that they have buckled to pressure put upon them by individuals / organizations who do not want the book commented upon? It's not enough to ban it, but they also do what they have done in Europe and Canada, stifle any speech on the topic at all?

Perhaps, but in any case, Amazon is acting as a censor, plain and simple.

Doesn't it bother you that censorship of talmudic study is defended by the same people who decry all other forms of censorship whatever? Why is the Talmud sacrosanct when all other religious scriptures are not?

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Amen I hate when I am lumped in with Orthodox Jews...and lol I am originally from Brooklyn... I feel like they follow other Jews every where we go to get a foot hold in our community and then alienate us from everyone else... drives me nuts...

reply to post by Beelzebubba


This is highly interesting to me. Any book, regardless of content, should never be banned. As another ATSer wrote, the merits of a book should stand on the contents that it contains, and judged by the readers themselves. Trying to prevent the spread of the book, regardless of content, is definitely a breach of human rights.

My point of interest lies in the sequence of things...

Apparently, this Mr. Hoffman has been maintaining a blog that "coincidentally" got notified of it being a suspected spam blog by Google's Blogger platform, shortly after being banned on Amazon.

This is highly interesting, because Google's "spam" notifications are sent partially on request by other users who may mark the blog as spam. Whenever a reader is on a Blogger account, soaking up info, they can hit a button on the top of the page to notify Google of inappropriate/spam content. Luckily, Google, unlike Amazon, has an appeal process.

Those two things happening at once could very possibly be mere coincidence, but I suspect there is a concerted effort by an unknown party to filter any initial hype of his book. I mean, his blog, which is now "suspected" of being spam, has had its content removed by those who do not share his views. Was this also due to breach of intellectual property?

How was this rabbi, whom Hoffman allegedly knows nothing about, learn of its release? Also, how was this rabbi in a position to file a complaint to David Zapolsky, VP and General Counsel of Amazon?

Sounds like some folks with a relationship with Amazon has an advantage, and unfortunately, it seems Hoffman is in the dark. I doubt this whole incident is due solely to some rabbi whose intellectual property is at risk of being tainted, there has to be some deeply-seeded problems at the root of it all.

I would be very intrigued to see any followup and how, if at all, Mr. Hoffman can appeal this process.

Being "blacklisted" by the biggest online book retailer would make any author fraught with worry.

Do any of you know if any other book retailer has given Mr. Hoffman similar treatment, or is Amazon being picky?

Just my eleventy cents... Cheers!

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Somehow Christians lived in the same Roman Empire as "the Jews" and were even fed to those animals you mentioned, but managed to keep the New Testament free of the Talmud's pornography, scatology, prurience, and nullification of the Ten Commandments.

Geemor has gotten suckered by one of the old rabbinical tricks, the claim that the Talmud is based on "Torah." A Christian assumes that "Torah" = Pentateuch, but there's the trick. In Judaism there are at least FIVE definitions of Torah. Here's the proof:

Please note FOUR definitions of Torah in the Jewish Encyclopedia's entry on Torah:

“Originally, in order to maintain the distinction between the written Torah (see written law) and various traditional interpretations, customs and practices, the rabbis forbade the commitment to writing of the additional material. However, when it became too voluminous and chaotic conditions made oral transmission too uncertain, the ban was lifted and the material organized and transcribed in the form of the Mishnah, the Talmud, and other rabbinic works. The rabbis expressed their view that 'two Torahs' were given at Sinai, a Written Torah [definition #1] and an Oral Torah [definition #2] (see oral law) and that at least some of the oral traditions relating to the meaning of basic biblical concepts were as authoritative as the written text (see halakah le-mosheh mi-sinai) In a sense the Oral Torah came to be regarded as more important than the Written Torah inasmuch as the explanations and understanding of the latter depended upon the former. A third meaning of the word ‘Torah’ therefore includes elements of the Oral Torah, which are considered authoritative or deoraita ---'from the Torah.' Finally in its broadest sense, the word 'Torah' is sometimes used to refer to the entire corpus of Halahak and Aggadah, [definition #3] Written and Oral, from the Bible up to and including the latest Responsa and homiletical interpretations of the rabbis [definition #4]....” [The New Encyclopedia of Judaism, Geoffrey Wigoder editor in Chief, New York: New York University Press, 2002, ISBN 0814793996, page 778]

Please note a FIFTH definition of Torah according to the Holy Father's favorite rabbi, “a great scholar” [Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, p.71]:

“... The rabbi constituted the projection of the divine on earth. Honor was due him more than to the scroll of the Torah, for through his learning and logic he might alter the very content of Mosaic revelation. He was Torah [definition #5], not merely because he lived by it, but because at his best he constituted as compelling an embodiment of the heavenly model as did a Torah scroll itself.” [Rabbi Jacob Neusner, “The Phenomenon of the Rabbi in Late Antiquity: II The Ritual of 'Being a Rabbi' in Later Sasanian Babylonia,” Numen, Vol.17, Fasc. 1., Feb., 1970, pp.3-4]

It gets worse because these “Torah” are on an ever widening trajectory from God. Consider explicit corollaries of the great scholar's presumption that, because the rabbis are divine, they can “alter the very content of Mosaic revelation.”

“...the Babylonian Talmud represents God in the flesh...” [Rabbi Jacob Neusner, Rabbinic Judaism, Minneapolis MN: Augsburg Fortress, 1995. p. 62]

MikeboydUS


Judaism IS anti-bible because it's anti-Jesus Christ. The Talmud takes precedence over the Torah, the Talmud is the holiest book in Judaism not the Torah

the vast majority of Jews don't have to be orthodox to believe in the Talmud. The Talmud is judaism plain and simple.

Even then the Orthodox themselves break down into further groups all with different beliefs. There are many sects of Judaism.

then ANYTHING can be Judaism!! All with different beliefs!!..... You can't have your cake and eat it too, the Talmud is Judaism plain and simple.

and numerous smaller groups, plus ethnic differences in beliefs and practices from Yemeni Jews, Kenyan Jews, Moroccan Jews, Indian Jews, and even Jews in China.

this is beyond illogical, this is plain dishonesty. Talmudism (Judaism) clearly has racist undertones and doesn't tolerate "ethnic differences in beliefs and practices", whatever THAT is.... Talmudism (Judaism) is a strict set of rules and beliefs and such chutzpah coming from you isn't going to change that

The Jewish faith and people does not end or begin with Ashkenazim or the Chabad Lubavitch movement.

This is irrelevant, Chabad Lubavitch strictly follows Judaism, (Talmudism) to the fullest extent. And how can there be a Jewish "people" if they come from all over the place?!! Middle East, Eastern Europe, China, India, Africa, but they're all 1 people aren't they??? You can't fool us with your Talmudic sophistry and labyrinthine deception. In fact your entire post was a perfect example of what Hoffman points out.

Pursuing the anti-Biblical nature of Judaism and its Talmud:

“On the surface, Scripture plays little role in the Mishanaic system, The Mishnah [of the Talmud] rarely cites a verse of Scripture, refers to Scripture as an entity, links its own ideas to those of Scripture, or lays claim to originate in what Scripture has said, even by indirect or remote allusion to a Scriptural verse of teaching... Formally, redactionally, and linguistically the Mishnah stands in splendid isolation from Scripture....the Mishnah constitutes Torah. [definition #2 ‘Written Torah’] It too is a statement of revelation, 'Torah revealed to Moses at Sinai.' But this part of revelation has come down in a form different from the well-known, written part, the Scripture. This tradition truly deserves the name 'tradition,' because for a long time it was handed down orally, not in writing, until given the written formulation now before us in the Mishnah.... Since some of the named authorities in the chain of tradition appear throughout the materials of the Mishnah, the claim is that what these people say comes to them from Sinai through the processes of qabbalah and massoret --handing down 'traditioning.' So the reason... that the Mishnah does not cite Scripture is that it does not have to.” [Rabbi Jacob Neusner, The Mishnah: A New Translation. New Haven CT: Yale University Press, 1988. pp. xxxv-xxxvi].

Note the casual admission that both “qabbalah and massoret [the vaunted, but bowdlerized, ‘Hebrew Bible’]” change Scripture through “process,” “traditioning.” In Judaism tradition is not fixed or faithful, but is an ever changing “process” that is described as “traditioning.” This is why “the latest Responsa and homiletical interpretations of the rabbis” are Torah, [definition #4] hence authoritative in Judaism.

Indeed all this oral “traditioning” is precisely what Jesus fingered as “make void the commandments of God for the traditions of men.” [Mark 7:9]. Since the rabbis are free to “alter even the very content of Mosaic revelation” with impunity, we begin to understand why Jesus said, “there is one that accuseth you, Moses” [John 5:45-47].

Do not be misled by a rabbi's mere mention of the word Torah. You must pin him down: "Which 'Torah'?" Then watch out for the pilpul, mental reservations, and Kol Nidre deceit that will inevitably follow.

Apologies to Geemoor. It was not he, but an anonymous poster, who foolishly opined that Judaism can't be anti-Biblical because it is based on "Torah."

In the latest development, Amazon has now turned off the ability to comment upon the book, and has deleted all existing comments.

Their hypocrisy is now utterly transparent. They acknowledge the existence of the book, but do not want anyone talking about it. They listen to one man claim violation of intellectual property, but fail to provide Mr. Hoffman with any documentation of this claim. They then back off on that claim, and post copies of the book from rare book dealers at a premium price, when Amazon could choose to sell copy of the book at list, but will not.

When it comes to the criticism of the Talmud, it seems that censorship is always permitted, and anyone who is opposed to such censorship is by definition antisemitic. Amazon has buckled under rabbinic pressure, plain and simple. It's not surprising. They are up against the most successful bunch of shakedown artists in the history of the human race. Perhaps they never stood a chance.

reply to post by Beelzebubba


All people that think that they need to buy from Amazon should realize that they
can order this book directly from Mr. Hoffman. j

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Now, I have the book. I have not finished it, and in fact have only just begun it.

If M. Anon or anyone else actually finishes the book, let me know what you think. It'd be great to see some excerpts that may shed new light otherwise not shown before? Personally, I'm picky about what I put on my bookshelves.

Most specifically, however, what is this intellectual property that has been breached, marred, stolen, what ever have you? That is a very good lead to get to the bottom of this entire discussion. If we can find the answer to that, maybe we can get closer to the identity of the rabbi. Then we can analyze all three persons in our case... Mr Hoffman, VP Zapolsky of Amazon, and this unknown rabbi.

By the way... why would they give Hoffman the specific information that the one who objected to the book was, in fact, a person of religious authority... and a rabbi at that.

I'm simply intrigued. I'm almost tempted to buy the book, but for the sake of objectivity, I'll let someone else get their brain dirty.

On another related note, I took a look at some of the reviews of the other books that the OP compared to Mr. Hoffman's work. The Review of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion started off interesting with this "Editorial Note:"

As some readers may be aware, a hoax e-mail has been circulating widely that falsely claims Amazon.com has favorably reviewed this book. This allegation is, of course, absolutely untrue. Nevertheless, this rumor has become so widespread on the Internet that it's already a recognized "urban legend," just like alligators living in the sewers. Amazon.com obviously does not endorse The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. This book is one of the most infamous, and tragically influential, examples of racist propaganda ever written. It may be useful to some as a tool in the teaching of the history of anti-Semitism, but it's unquestionably propaganda.

They'll sling that trash but not Hoffman's? They say intellectual property rights. Could his Hoffman's be just as trashy?

I never got that email nor have I ever heard of that book or so many religious conspiracies until I found you, beloved ATS.

Cheers!

EDIT - Perfection?

[edit on 21-8-2008 by Rashaverak]

[edit on 21-8-2008 by Rashaverak]

reply to post by Rashaverak


Thank you for staying on topic with this thread. Intriguing questions are raised by your previous post. What makes Hoffman's book (if it is indeed "hate literature") any different from the other titles that Amazon sells while condemning them at the same time?

Included in the disclaimer for The Protocols... is this paragraph:

Should Amazon.com sell The Protocols and other controversial works? As a bookseller, Amazon.com strongly believes that providing open access to written speech, no matter how hateful or ugly, is one of the most important things we do. It's a service that the United States Constitution protects, and one that follows a long tradition of booksellers serving as guardians of free expression in our society.

Link

Here is a link to Hoffman's Blog: On the Contrary. There are regular updates on the situation with Amazon as well as reviews of the book.

Hoffman has promised to reveal all of his correspondence with Amazon in the near future.

The "individual" is a rabbi (a fact Amazon does not disclose in its form letter) and Amazon has agreed to give this rabbi veto power over the sale of "Judaism Discovered" based on the pretext that the book violates his intellectual property rights. I have provided documentation to Amazon that shows that no such property rights are at stake and that even if they were, it is not Amazon's place to act as judge and jury and embargo a book based on rabbinic allegations, but rather for the rabbi to make his case in a court of law while the book is being sold. (I will be publishing my correspondence with Amazon's corporate counsel and this will include the evidence, which is pretty much air-tight and which Amazon has not endeavored to answer).

Link


[Edit to add]

There is currently a copy for sale on Amazon for USD 150.00. The book retails for USD 45.00 from the authors site. Even though Amazon is now making it available through second-hand and rare booksellers, the price-hike does't make it a very viable option for the average joe.

Judaism Discovered on Amazon

The review section of the book seems to have been enabled as well.

Reviews





[edit on 22/8/2008 by Beelzebubba]