America is not afraid to kick Russia out of Georgia

Now, I fear, I will try to see if I am comprehending the picture being portrayed here.

Someone indicated there seems to be an element of coordination in the sequence of events leading up to this engagement.

While military strategic value, economic potential, and cultural solidarity, have been listed as factors making the region a reasonable concern of the Russian Leadership, Georgia's support of the USA and evident intent to join, once allowed, the NATO alliance (such as it is) are given as rationale for US direct involvement in the region.

It is ultimately childish to assume this event has its beginnings on August 8. Such actions as have been taken require planning and logistical support, frankly, it must have been planned in advance. The reasoning applies to both parties.

Both Russian and Georgian troops were occupying the region, the Russians as sanctioned peace-keepers, to prevent 'ethnic cleansing' (I still have no clear answer if Russian is now considered an ethnicity) from the prior transgression of (presumably) Georgian military (or militia), unhindered by any governmental restraint.

The arena had been 'heating up', with skirmishes (allegedly) in recent past, and the both parties were antagonistic to each others' presence.
Some days (?) earlier alleged PKK terrorist staged a feeble assault on part of the pipeline, which remained relatively undamaged. BP closes the pipeline.
Condi rice tells the Georgian Leadership something along the lines of - don't take the bait! Georgia's president publicly announces his troops have been ordered not to engage the Russians. Russia bused in 2000 volunteer militia (reason unclear) the very day it all started.

The inevitable spark, either the Russian surge or the Georgian response to it, once struck, initiated this war. The spark is key. Why attack a convoy of supposed 'pace-keeper forces' and why respond to such an engagement by sending in 150 tanks? Neither is proportionate.

Have I messed this up so far? Did I leave anything out - other than the OP wants to kick Russia's butt over this?

Edit to add bold text

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Maxmars]

Russia is not that tuff:

Quote: "Russia doesn't understand lightweight, emotional small-talk and hollow threats. Russia never will, because it never had to. All you're dong is writing a "nasty letter" and not doing anything about it.

Did this stop Hitler? Did it stop Napolean? No. "


Response: If it were not for a very cold winter in WWII, all citizens of Russia would be speaking German.. The Germans were kicking the ..it out of them, the only that stopped them was the cold. If it were a normal winter that year, St Petersburg would today be named St. Hitlerburg.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by GrndLkNatv]

I fully with agree with BlackOps719 .

This is Insanity. It's a global game to bring in a Global Government . Georgia attacks Russia and massacres Russian citizens and the Media lies and pumps out propganda. The BBC shows reports of Russian massacres using footage of Soldiers wearing Goergian uniforms with Goergian insignia !!! THATS HOW DUMB THEY THINK WE ARE . Total lies . The USA is Banrupt. It has no money to finance a War with Russia. Russia has a huge trade surplus and Europe is entirely dependent on Russian Gas & Oil . The Oil Price will rize again and the poor will get poorer. The USA couldnt stop 19 hijackers with boxcutters ( If you believe that B.S. Lie ) let alone Nukes .

Russia has a trade surplus and owns Billions of US dollars and shares . What if they decide to sell them at a very low price ? Bye Bye America . Total econmoic collapse is immenent any way. The Government has planned for decades and plans to merge with the Soviet system thats why you have all the Police state evil , Fema concentration camps & a fake economy built on credit from China , Russia , Japan & Europe.

When these Banks call in their debts America is finished and thats why the US Army website has a Civilian Inmate Forced Labour Program . Because its all planned . Bresinki created Al Queda and advises Obama . His son Ian advises McCaine ...who really runs AmeriKa.


These wars are a creation of the CFR , Trilateral Commision , Bilderberg Group to distract AmeriKa as they take your freedoms and take out your economy. Obama went to Koran school in Indonesia because he is a Muslim
and his campign office has flags of Che Guevara on the Wall not the American flag. ...which Obama removed from his aircraft.... AmeriKa is being taken down from the inside by stealth whilst you all look at Iran , Iraq Afganistan and Russia.


www.emperors-clothes.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...

Originally posted by constantwonder
maybe you europeans should do something other than piss and moan most of you ant american morons wouldnt lift a fingur to help your mother if she was being murdered self preservation is all you morons care about and it sickens me this is a problem for everyone not just americans and since your "stuck in the middle" maybe you should pull your damn thumb out of your ass and do something about it instead of taking the popular cop out of blame america.... I wish we could go back to isolationism and just watch the # hit the fan around us just so we could see you begging for US "soldiers of misfortune" to come save your cowaring hides

I am not a moron...And sometimes I am not anti-american...

But in this case...What has America got to do with this 'little' uproar? Why does Bush even has to say anything about this?

Also you state: "self preservation is all you morons care about"

Mmhh...The wars Bush is leading at this moment are all because of oil and money, thus 'self preservation', am I wrong? Yeah yeah...9-11, of course I haven't forgotten...But the general idea is to control the whole 'axes of evil' for the oil that it holds.

Also I like to make clear that 'europe' sounds nice and all...But isn't. There only is a 'europe' in theory, so please don't blame little old me here in the Netherlands. I personally dislike the whole idea of 'europe'. Because what is Europe? Nothing more then a bunch of countries that have the same currency, nothing more!

And constantwonder...If I believe everything I have read and seen about America in all wars that have been fought in history...They all arranged these wars themselves to keep their economy running. But this is of course just a conspiracy theory...

So I would love to help my mother when she is being murdered...But it is probably Bush that is killing her!

The US is in no position to do anything. What, your going to drop everything in the mid east and tangle with the Russians?

And am I the only one that thinks that America and Georgia are "allies" because there is a massive oil line going through the region? I'm guessing that if that oil pipeline wasn't there, the U.S wouldn't pay any attention.

Originally posted by jetxnet

Evil persists when good men do nothing

Russia doesn't understand lightweight, emotional small-talk and hollow threats. Russia never will, because it never had to. All you're dong is writing a "nasty letter" and not doing anything about it.

Did this stop Hitler? Did it stop Napolean? No.

It's what a woman would do (write a nasty letter), and men in power don't understand this. They are greedy. Putin is greedy. Putin is essentially a murderer too. Not directly, but by his forces killing anyone that isn't Russian, including children. Specifically targeting civilians.

It's time to take Russia down once and for all. Hand them their a$s. We have the world's most superior military, but if we let Russia (and China) continue to build - it will only be worse later. We will always be at odds, unless there is an Alien invasion and we all have a common objective to save humanity.

Until then, we have to keep Tyrants like Putin down. Stand up and be proud - let him learn a lesson first-hand.

It won't come to Nuclear weapons, and Russia has already lost some of their inventory to the Chechnyan Mafia who has sold on the Black Market.

Russia isn't anything like it was militarily before as the Soviet Union. It's time to get them out of Georiga and destroy most of their tanks and planes there.

By fearing to do so now, will only create a much bigger problem later.

Fear must be removed and what must be done - must be done.

I've never heard of any Russian Nuclear weapons being lost to the Chechen Mafia. Source?

The USA isnt anything militarily like it was in the 1980s just as Russia isnt now compared to the Soviet Union 20 years ago. The 'end' of the Cold War led to a massive disarmament drive - the US and Russia lost tanks, planes, ships, submarines in huge numbers.

Their nuclear arsenals are shadows of what they were in the 1980s. Yes, people say that Russia has thousands of warheads still but how many are new, up-to-date and reliable? The SS27 Topol and Buluva? How many have they got of these - 50-60? Not much compared to the 308 SS18s that could wipe out America's entire missile force is it??! These new missiles are not being built in any way big enough numbers to replace all the 'Soviet' era missiles which are now mainly past their service lives.

russianforces.org...

reply to post by Randy Echo


Are you serious? I cant believe you are serius, is ignorant, brain washed people like you that get this country in problems that do not belong to us. so what if we got a good army? so what if we got the best navy? that all means nothing if you do not know how to manage it, you think because we got the most expensive things that mean that we have everything done for us? have you stop to think on how many innocent people will lost their lives just because? man is people like you that get so many innocent people kill. because you think we can do anything and everything without consequences. America wake up!

Head to head with regular military NATO would kick the crap out of Russia. But why the hell would we want to? If it is a nuke war than who cares..Nobody will "win". Georgia is a great way to get McCain elected. Obama and his Hope or Change thing is not what we need right now. We need somebody that scares the crap out of Russia. McCain is the best we got. IMHO

reply to post by Randy Echo


Randy, were you not the one who was defending the actions of those "poor" Russians in another thread?


Why the change of heart?

Oh, sure, let's butt our noses into another issue, so we can triple our 1.8 billion dollars a week spending habit we already have in Iraq. Good thinking.

People can't wait to jump right into the jaws of death, I don't know why. There are people that think about a NWO, war, disasters, and hate the thought of them all. Then there is this weird subset of people that love the thought of a war. Of holocaust. Disasters. The same folks I guess, that love the idea of a rogue sun destroying our planet, or a huge asteroid blasting into Earth.

Peaceful solutions should always be the first route. And EXTENSIVELY and exhaustively tried upon, again and again, until an accord can be reached. Unlike Kuwait, where Saddam clearly was not going to negotiate, it seems like the building blocks are in place for a solution, and that should be focused on before all else.

Stop trying to drag us into your personal desire to see the entire planet in chaos and turmoil.

reply to post by Randy Echo


Be very careful what you wish for? I'm a military veteran myself but I for one know the full implication of an all out war with Russia. It will not be pretty and the Missile shield your talking about is only deploy able on the west coast since most of the testing has and still is being conducted out there. Second you can expect to lose half of our military since I remember being a part of several simulated war games against Russia and in the end we lost half of our forces because of other countries getting involved (ex. China, India etc.) so it wouldn't be easy as you make it sound. Georgia was warned as reported by several news sources by us not to instigate Russia in any way and that is exactly what they did. Now were stuck between a rock and a hard place and while we condemn Russia for what they are currently doing...We'll be asking them for help when it comes to issues like Iran and North Korea. Georgia is not a part of NATO (thank god) because if they were at the moment....this board would be full of the latest events from the war front in regards to WWIII. Guranteed

what does america have to do with this well this is what is has to do with it

both the russians and the georgians are expecting the US to stick their neck out for them

the russians

www.upi.com...

the georgians

www.timesonline.co.uk...

this is exactly the kind of issue i was reffering to in my last post everyone wants americas help when # hits the fan yet when they are safe and sound in their homes they wanna point fingures and call us the bad guy the US has problems ill be the first to admit it but i think its plainly hipocracy when you (who ever it may be in any case) beg for help when your threatened but when your not you call us war mongers and dump all the worlds problems in our lap saying its your fault america so we hate you its sheer madness like i said a return to isolationism would be apperently the best thing we could for the world... and if we did this you would all cry why dont you help us please america we need you so what the hell do you all want from us? u want us to intervene or not intervene you cant have your cake and eat it to or so they say i really am not trying to personally attack anyone i just want people to realize that half of the world wants us to act half doesnt we cant please everyone and degrading the US is an empty solution that solves nothing

I think what this conflict has shown, is the need for a strong European Federation. The US can and should use its influence, but a strong, unified Europe is in order to offset Russian aggression. This really is more of a "Europe problem" than it is an American one. That is not to say anything less in regards to our national interests in the region.

Europe is the one that is becoming increasingly reliant on Russian energy, so in order to sustain economic growth. If Russia can control europes economy [and all the "ripples" that would cause], Russia essentially becomes one of the great powers of the world again.

You cannot really blame the Russians, I look at current world events and compare it to a game of chess. The pieces are being moved into place, to whom ever the victors of this sick game of some 5,000 years in the making happen to be, undoubtedly will control the world. Interesting times we live in.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by West Coast]

I'm signing up tomorrow. If they don't take me I'll volunteer my services. I am not afraid and yes I am insane.
Let's all sign up. Be a patriot.

Is it me? I wonder what the people of Russia want?

Everyone seems to say things like 'we' shouldn't do this or "they" just want whatever. Who are we talking about? Aside from a minority, I doubt that the American people are going to be issuing a battle-cry at this point.

The beneficiaries of these actions, regardless of which side is vanquished from the battlefield, is who? The civilian population, the people for whom they are fighting? I think not. America? In what way?

I don't want my children shipped of to get killed or maimed, certainly without understanding why it is necessary.

reply to post by West Coast


That a very good point! Well said. Do you think this is a possible nudge meant to encourage the formation of a larger transnational European standing armed forces? Or is that too NWO?

Originally posted by fleabit
Peaceful solutions should always be the first route. And EXTENSIVELY and exhaustively tried upon, again and again, until an accord can be reached. Unlike Kuwait, where Saddam clearly was not going to negotiate, it seems like the building blocks are in place for a solution, and that should be focused on before all else.

I know you mean well with your intentions, but do not be so naive. What happens when the aggressor continues on their destructive path regardless of your calls for peace? I think we live in a very primitive society/world still. Peace is looked at as a sign of weakness by our enemy's.

Stop trying to drag us into your personal desire to see the entire planet in chaos and turmoil.

If history is any clear distinction to go by, there will always be someone trying to be "numero uno".

[edit on 14-8-2008 by West Coast]

Ultimately it's Europe's problem but, the western European nations will do little to effect change in the situation. I support the OP only because Georgia has been one of our biggest allies in the conflict in Iraq. It is wrong for us not to provide them with as much aid and assistance we can. If at some point it means boots on the ground so be it. The Russians have been a thorn in the side of the world for far too long. It amazes me how easy so much of the world forgets about the past. You know what they say "those who forget the past are bound to repeat it". We unfortunately blew our opportunity to confront them at the end of WWII. Patton always said that we would fight them someday. I don't want war but, it seems to be a real possibilty. For those of you who are tired of the US being the bully or the world's police force , if you want change then be mindful of who you vote for.

Hi all , i'd like you to respect my point of view , of course you can criticize my ideas but please , no personal attacks ...
So I'm a French guy , and I totally agree with the original poster , politicians of my country refused to join and help Usa and Uk in the iraqi conflict which is still very difficult to handle and personally i think it's a great mistake , I know lots of people in America who thought at the moment we refused , that french had forgotten what America did for us during the WWII , and it's true and sad , we have forgotten , and right now the U.s are doing exactly the same thing than us , Georgia is getting pounded by the ruskis and Usa is watching somewhere else ... Giorgia has deployed 2000 elite troops to HELP America in the Iraqi mess , and probably saved american asses a couple of times , so I think it's time for America to ENTER in this war , to HELP georgians to get out of trouble , and then to annihilate all capacity for Russia to be a threat for the World's stability again , because russia caused as much or even far more trouble than american , Russia has methods that no other country has , it probably thinks he can threaten the World's stability again just like " before " , America and Europe should show them we can be a threat to their well-being ...
Regards ,
Alex from France .


AND PLEASE EXCUSE MY POOR ENGLISH SKILLS

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Sandia-1985]

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by West Coast

 

That a very good point! Well said. Do you think this is a possible nudge meant to encourage the formation of a larger transnational European standing armed forces?

I think that certain factions in the EU could make that argument, which given current world events (and where things seem to be heading), would be quite valid.

Or is that too NWO?

I do not subscribe to that theory.