Challenge Match: GUNSINWAR vs grimreaper797: Who Packed The Bigger Punch?

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posted on Aug, 14 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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The topic for this debate is "Modern Boxing is only a Reflection of the Greatness that Boxing Once Enjoyed"

GUNSINWAR is arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
grimreaper797 will be arguing the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

Character limits are no longer in effect. You may use as many characters as a single post allows.

Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

Responses should be made within 24 hours. One single 24 hour extension can be used by a member by requesting it in the thread. If 24 hours passes without response, you may proceed with your next post. Members who exceed 24 hours run the risk of losing their post, but may still post up until their opponent has submitted their next response.

There will be an option for a weekend recess.

This is a challenge match. The winner will receive 2 ranking points, the loser will lose two ranking points unless the loser does not have two ranking points to wager.




posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 01:01 AM
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First let me begin by thanking MemoryShock for his hard work and dedication to the Debate forum of Above Top Secret.Secondly, a BIG THANK YOU to SEMPERFORTIS for giving us a really interesting subject to debate about, allow me to thank grimreaper797 for his participating and good luck to you. Lastly, I thank you the reader for taking the time to read this debate.

"Modern Boxing is only a Reflection of the Greatness that Boxing Once Enjoyed"

What a really interesting subject!

In this debate i will show you the big difference between modern boxing and how really boxing was!
But first to do that we, have to go back in time.........

Ancient Greek boxing


There were no weight classes, no rounds and no time limit. Some fights lasted for days. If both fighters agreed, they could end the fight by “klimax’ whereby each fighter took turns striking the other, without pretense of defence by either, until a winner was decided.

Athletes were selected by their city-states to represent their people, and although there were no weight classes it was obvious that size, height, weight, reach and strength were all advantages, therefore it was normally only the largest men who were chosen to represent their city-states in this sport.

en.wikipedia.org...


These boxers where like GODS, selected by their city-states! Know can you imagne how big of a fight this had to be...thousands of people in attendance for one fight that would be talked about for thousands of years....

Those days there was not a thing called protective gear...The punching of the time was crude, and did not feature the straight punches normally seen today, but instead consisted mainly of wild hooks and hammer-like blows, mostly to the head.


When defending, style and grace of movement were highly valued. Greek boxers trained for months before the games.In the days of Onomastos, courage was also valued and it was said that a fighter of the time named Eurydamas swallowed his own broken teeth rather than show that he was hurt. His opponent, disheartened that his best punches were having no effect, signalled defeat.
www.englishclub.com...

These where real boxers....No rules boxing till one man stands alone....Today`s Boxing i dont even know who the world champion is!
Todays boxing is only going about money......No honour!


I will leave it at here first....there is alot more to come!



posted on Aug, 16 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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I would like to thank MemoryShock for setting this debate up, semperfortis for picking the topic, and my opponent for giving me this opportunity.


The Topic: "Modern Boxing is only a Reflection of the Greatness that Boxing Once Enjoyed"

My Stance: Modern Boxing Is More Than A Reflection Of Ancient Boxing. Modern Boxing Is The Core Of What Boxing Should Be.



My Opening:

If you were to take a look at many modern sports, they all have rules and guidelines. These rules are put there, not to dull the sport, but to make it more exciting and competitive. Boxing is no different than other modern sports. In baseball, you are not allowed to run the bases with a baseball bat, hitting people as you go. That destroys the point of the game.

My first major talking point is how rules in a sport increase the demand for talent. When you implement rules in a sport, you create more of a challenge. The skills needed to be successful at said sport are raised. By making a sport with little to no rules, you merely make the game a target for exploitation, where the better competitor isn’t always the winner. Where the game starts out unbalanced and only furthers that divide as the game progresses.

Boxing is an art. Any man with enough courage can walk up to another man and punch away till one is knocked out. This is often referred to as a street fight. Boxing is much more than that. Boxing is a game of chess. I will show you why a boxing match is so much more than a fight of fists, but a battle of everything that makes us human, from emotions to willpower.

The “safety” gear used today is made for specific purposes. I will explain why safety gear allows the point of boxing to be fulfilled, yet refrains it from destroying itself with senseless brutality. I will also explain why, without this safety gear, boxing would become nothing but a brutal death match that, in the long run, destroys its glory.


Socratic Questions:
#1: Is brute force fighting good boxing, or simplistic entertainment?
#2: Is it true that when history is looked at in 20/20 things can be misconstrued?



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 01:03 AM
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Thank you to my opponent for having to wait for me after the weakend!

Now to come back to the debate!


Originally posted by grimreaper797

Socratic Questions:
#1: Is brute force fighting good boxing, or simplistic entertainment?


Brute force is good boxing, you already show your opponent fear and not to make a mistake,knock your opponent out with brute force rather that he knockes you out!thus leads to simplistic entertainment!


#2: Is it true that when history is looked at in 20/20 things can be misconstrued?


History is history,as written in the books! some aspects could be misinterpret depends on you!


Lets continue...

When I was young i did not know anything about boxing! But one thing I heard was names like,Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Haggler, Thomas (Hitman) Hearns, Roberto Duran and Muhammad Ali!Why???

Never saw a fight of them untill later in my life..


Ray Charles Leonard (born May 17, 1956) is a retired American professional boxer. Named Fighter of the Decade for the 1980s, he is widely considered to be one of the best boxers of all time, winning world titles at multiple weights.

Total fights 40
Wins 36
Wins by KO 25
Losses 3
Draws 1
No contests 0

en.wikipedia.org...


Roberto Duran fought 119 fights, 103 wins and 70 knock outs!

Thomas Hearns fought 67 fights, 61 wins and 48 knock outs!



Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. on January 17, 1942) is a retired American boxer and former three-time World Heavyweight Champion. To date, he remains the only man to have won the linear heavyweight championship three times (the linear title is recognized by tracing an - almost - unbroken lineage of titleholders going back over 100 years, with nearly every champion defeating the previous titleholder in the ring). Ali was also the winner of an Olympic Light-heavyweight gold medal. In 1999, Ali was crowned "Sportsman of the Century" by Sports Illustrated and the BBC.

Total fights 61
Wins 56
Wins by KO 37
Losses 5
Draws 0
No contests 0


en.wikipedia.org...


Mohammed Ali one of the best know boxers, he even obtain the the "Sportsman of the Century" award!These guys where hardcore,tought had the passion for boxing...They whore hard leather boxing gloves,that was heavy and with every punch felt like a hammer being hit with! But they continued boxing!

The fight they produced was world class,going at each other of there is no tomorrow! that is why these names are written in the history books,no other boxer for 20 years has come close to breaking some of these boxers records!

a Good example i want to show to my opponent!



Just look at this fights!Brutal knock outs,hardcore one on one fights, this is what the people loved!Look at the crowd too, they are enjoying everymoment of this fight!

For the new age world chapion! One guys response on youtube after viewing a clip of the World boxing champion


MikeHawkins (1 hour ago)

Honestly, I have no idea who those people are. www.youtube.com...


Socratic Questions:

1.) Is the gloves made today lighter,softer and made not to injure the hands!and not to injure your apponent to much!

There is alot more to come!



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 08:42 PM
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My opponent would have you believe that brutality equals good boxing when he says:


Brute force is good boxing, you already show your opponent fear and not to make a mistake,knock your opponent out with brute force rather that he knockes you out!thus leads to simplistic entertainment!


This statement does not have any merit. There is a very simple reason as to WHY his statement has no merit. The term brute force is the idea of using mere power rather than your intelligence. Any good boxer knows this is a mistake. Boxing is a chess match. My opponent refers to a fighter like Muhammad Ali, even though Ali was NOT a brute force fighter. In fact, if you watch his fight with Foreman, he is the exact opposite.



Ali starts out by dancing around. He is CREALY not using brute force. He dances around and tires Foreman out. He picks his spots and gets out or clinches. This is a man using a strategy, using his intelligence.



A case that shows brute force is BAD boxing is the famous fight between Hagler and Hearns. In this fight, Hearns, the faster and more skillful boxer, used brute force against Hagler. This was a terrible error that ended up costing him the fight. It was, in every sense, bad boxing on his part. Is it exciting to watch two people bash each others faces in, standing toe to toe? Sure! Unfortunately for your argument, that isn’t what boxing is about.

Boxing is about strategy and wits, as well as strength.



Next, my opponent dodges my second question by giving an indirect "answer". He refuses to admit that history is looked upon with glory because our memories are grander than real life.



Now, I find it amusing you would name fighters like Hearns, Ali, and Sugar Ray Leonard, when these same fighters were as far from brute force fighters as you can get. They used their speed and wits to turn away from opponents power, finding openings, moving in and out. These fighters proved their BOXING skills when they simply out fought their opponents.

You say brute force is great boxing, yet the fighters you refer are anything but brute force fighters. Duran was a much more forceful fighter, but even he used strategy and never simply rushed non-stop.



I would now like to point out a major flaw in logic on my opponents part. He says that everybody knows names like Ali and Foreman, but nobody knows the fighters of today. That is how history works. The people of today never have the notoriety that the greatest boxers IN HISTORY have, until they become part of history. Modern boxers have the skills, the determination, and the will power that the great boxers in history had. The only difference is that their name and highlight reels haven’t been around for 40 years for people to watch.



Since my opponent thinks brute force makes for good boxing, I’d like to show YOU some highlights of some modern boxers that prove just the opposite.



Have you forgotten Pernell Whitaker? The man was the definition of how strategy and speed together are a deadly combination destined for greatness. The video speaks for itself.




Lets not forget Floyd Mayweather Jr., perhaps one of the best pound for pound fighters, period. Using his great defensive skills he quickly became a force to be reckon with. He is but one of the many fighters in recent history that has stunned the boxing community with the sheer talent and intelligence they have when they step into the ring. Many others, like Jermaine Taylor, Kelly Pavlik, and Winky Wright, also use these skills to out-BOX their opponents for a win.

Just take a look at Winky Wright. Is he the most exciting? No. Is he among the best boxers? Without a doubt.



Look at his fight with Taylor. Technical fighting that may not be the most exciting, but without a doubt one of the most interesting fights to watch.



To finish off my post, I give you one of the greatest pound for pound fighters in the history of boxing. Roy Jones Jr.



He prove time and time again, that if you outsmart your opponent, and more importantly, OUT BOX your opponent, they don’t stand a chance. Brute Force is for the “fighters” who lack the technical skills and intelligence to box like a TRUE champion.


As for your "question", it isn't even a question, or in question form.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 02:00 AM
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Let me take my opponents hand and direct him that the debate is not about! Brute force in boxing good or bad. But i shall continue on this matter.I do apologize to my opponent that i cant seem to view two of the youtube clips.



In this clip above you can see the brute force of boxing swiging with all his strengh knocking out the opponent,the boxer knows if he gets one shot in, in the right spot the opponent will go down!

In the begging of the clip you can see Ali using brute force to bring his opponent down,yes Ali had tactics to make his opponent weak,but when it came down to was brute force to take him down.


During the bout, Ali employed an unexpected strategy. Leading up to the fight, he had declared he was going to "dance" and use his speed to keep away from Foreman and outbox him. However, in the first round, Ali headed straight for the champion and began scoring with a right hand lead, clearly surprising Foreman. Ali caught Foreman nine times in the first round with this technique but failed to knock him out.en.wikipedia.org...


My opponent mentioned that this is HOW history works...These boxers placed their names in the history books while they where still boxing.
After the fight of Mohammed Ali and Frank Sinatra it was written down as the fight of the century, another fight rumble in the jungle made history after the match!The THRILA MANILA fight that the basis of the plot for the first of the Rocky franchise, which led to five sequels that have endured for 30 years.

To come back to the gloves!


Their primary use is to protect the knuckles of the fighters. They are also used for protection from injury such as fractures and/or contusions when punched. Unlike the classical cestus, boxing gloves protect both opponents,



These cloves where hard heavy and uncofortable and when punched with these babies was like getting hit with a brick!
Todays boxers have different gloves for different weights! Even head gear for middle weight boxing!

I will leave here!



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 06:01 AM
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my opponent has failed to reply on my post!

Here is some more footage of how brutal Mohammed ali was in boxing!





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