NASA Historian: Advanced Alien Cultures May Be Sentient Machines In A Post Biological Universe!

Originally posted by Zepherian
Welcome to the nightmare world of tecnocratic transhumanism, where a couple of second rate philosophers and elitist aristocrats plan the demise of not only the human race but the entire biosphere.

If I thought there was a bright future in transhumanistic machine based lifeforms I could go along with this, but am I the only one that thinks this is madness? We don't even realise the full potential of our biological systems because we are too ignorant and misslead, and we are supposed to believe there is a bright future in turning into a terminator type nightmare?

We need to heal ourselves and realise that the true role of tecnology is not to replace us but to complement our own living spiritual and fraternal humanity. Anything less is to be fought for the mad delusions of arrogant scientists and authors, imho.

I've read the sci-fi about this, it falls short of the wonderfull complex reality we already enjoy as living biological entities. Not only that but a lot of the current probelms we endure are actually caused by the very transhumanist philosophies, which are very present in medicine for example, that are supposed to make our lives better but instead are resulting in a slow decline of western civilization.

Wake up would be the meme to end this post with.

[edit on 13-8-2008 by Zepherian]

Exactly.

reply to post by mikesingh


I'm interested in your quote of John Glen. I went to the Pegasus research site but had no idea where to find the quote or the article it came from. I'd like to see the context fo the quote. Can you help me out? Thanks!

Originally posted by mikesingh

Originally posted by eaganthorn
Once intelligence crosses the threshold from biological independence to an artificial intelligence enhancement and on to the finality of a complete non biological existence, what occurs to the concepts of time?
Do the post biological cultures have any urgency in time and management there of?

Excellent thoughts eagan!

I think the concept of time is purely relative. It may vary at different areas of the universe. At the micro level, as per Einstein, time depends on the spatial reference frame of the observer, and the human perception.

So perceptions are a variable too and this could mean different concepts of time by different alien cultures. And then would a more advanced post biological civilization be really constrained by ‘time’? AI in non biological ‘containers’ don’t suffer attenuation and the whole unit could ‘live’ endlessly – forever!

And I would like to repeat this as I find this part fascinating:

Further down the line, perhaps a few billion years from now, we may morph into pure energy beings with no bio baggage! Hard core sci-fi? But that's probably what lies ahead in the far distant future. And after that? Well, I can't even begin to comprehend! Perhaps all this energy would merge to become .....God?? And engineer another Big Bang to create another universe? Like ours?! Now, am I at the threshold of understanding what God is, after all?

Cheers!

Point being that a post bio-culture, void of time concerns,replication may occur in a way most efficient to function and resource but may take millions of years since time no longer means anything to them.

reply to post by mikesingh


I stopped reading once i saw the first illustration, using an elephant blended in with other graphical garbage. I could do that also with photoshop...

I don't even bother to imagine what possibilities could exist outside the realm of earth life... Why bother you'll never even come close...

exelent interview,

thoughts thoughts ,
what if an old race of space travelers with these fusion reactor ships, lived at the begining of "time" ?
(in this thought i belive time being the same everywhere , constant ? )
travled back and forth between vesums and planets ,
and the re fueling has happend on many planets/object with water,
it would explain our diverse sea life , what if it only was microbes that where brought here from there,
back then but over the ages and with the re fueling some even grew to the size of busses while others sill in begining stages?

i even got thoughts of some kind of antropological cleaness, ie you dont interfare with other spices evolvment,
and if the above statement would be true that due to re fueling the universe is populated in random manner not linear due to their adventures
id say it will be along time before they even interact with us, us knowing it , might all be gibberish

idono so many thoughts after that atsmix

2 thumbs up for you guys ,

EXCELLENT POST!

However, I think it's FAR too early to even being to predict a post-biological being. Mankind's technology has far surpassed it's spirituality. It's been said that the human brain can process 100 trillion calculations per second, yet at any given time humans are only using a very small percentage. A computer cannot yet compare to a human brain as far as function ability.

Comparison of a brain and a computer:

In addition to the technical differences, other key differences exist. The brain is massively parallel and interwoven, whereas programming of this kind is extremely difficult for computer software writers (most parallel systems run semi-independently, for example each working on a small separate 'chunk' of a problem). The human brain is also mediated by chemicals and analog processes, many of which are only understood at a basic level and others of which may not yet have been discovered, so that a full description is not yet available in science. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, the human brain appears hard-wired with certain abilities, such as the ability to learn language (cf. Broca's area), to interact with experience and unchosen emotions, and usually develops within a culture. This is different from a computer in that a computer needs software to perform many of its functions beyond its basic computational capabilities.

Of course, we're speaking in terms of surpassing the technological singularity (for more on this subject, explore one of my favorite sites: kurzweilAI.net), so we have to assume that we've accomplish the feat of programming that allows AI to run as efficient and "learn" like the human brain can.

I think humans need to slow down the R&D of technology and focus a bit more on the human body (i.e.: understanding more of the human brain, it's thought processes, and why lifeforms such as humans feel emotions) in order to allow ourselves to function at our maximum capacity. We haven't yet mastered ourselves - why think about allowing machines to master us?

Rather, than turning "life" into non-biological beings, I'd rather focus on memory transfer that would allow cloned human beings the ability to "swap" memories, thus allowing one to "live" forever. While the human body would actually die, the memories and experiences would live on in your newly cloned body. Also, with this method, it would be possible to colonized other solar systems and theoretically other galaxies, without the use of light speed, wormholes, or colony supporting transport ships.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by tyranny22]

reply to post by Res Ipsa


It would seem that if such beings existed with the ability to think at a much more complex level and retained the ability to learn as humans do, that they would eventually distance themselves from humans as much as possible. Much like we've disassociated mankind from the animal kingdom.

Regardless of the "safe-guards" that were programed in to the AI, the learning AI would eventually come to the conclusion that humankind was unnecessary, or more of a novelty than an asset.

I highly doubt that such beings would be threatened by mankind, so I don't think there'd be any sort of attempt to eradicate our species. More likely, we would be left to fend for ourselves and from time to time, they may intervene when our species looks as if it may be on the verge of extinction. Much like humans operate.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by tyranny22]

Originally posted by Chakotay
If an advanced silicon-based intelligence
decided to create
the perfect self-replicating Von Neuman probe
it would create
a carbon-based nanorobot
with a DNA based quantum microprocessor
capable of taking root in any environment
with the ability to bloom into
a primate form capable of constructing the next generation
of silicon microprocessors
and starships.

Recognize the complexity of yourself, and you will understand
your origins and destiny.

Very well said. I think you are on to something with this post

I read Kurzweils book the age of spiritual machines. I think there could be a bright future if we do things right. Its up to us to do things smart so that the end results are a better world. Short of a megadisaster that wipes out all of us, I think the merger of biological organisms and advanced computers is practically inevitable. It's like that episode of the Outer limits where everyone has the internet built into the side of their heads so they have acess to all info ever created.

Originally posted by guyopitz
I read Kurzweils book the age of spiritual machines. I think there could be a bright future if we do things right. Its up to us to do things smart so that the end results are a better world. Short of a megadisaster that wipes out all of us, I think the merger of biological organisms and advanced computers is practically inevitable. It's like that episode of the Outer limits where everyone has the internet built into the side of their heads so they have acess to all info ever created.

Funny how I find this thread shortly after I started reading that book. Very interesting and mind blowing in a way. He makes some good arguments. Sure, there is something a bit frightening about abandoning flesh and blood for the machine - somehow I think it won't be quite such a black-and-white issue - but either way, we need to embrace the wonderful possibilities of the future rather than fear them. I don't see machines replacing us so much as achieving a sort of symbiosis with us.

Originally posted by missvicky
reply to post by mikesingh

 

I'm interested in your quote of John Glen. I went to the Pegasus research site but had no idea where to find the quote or the article it came from. I'd like to see the context fo the quote. Can you help me out? Thanks!

It's from the book 'Dark Mission' by Mike Bara and Richard Hoagland.



The full quote by Senator John Glenn is included in this paragraph:

Twice flown astronaut, war hero, and Senator John Glenn requested a March 2001 appearance on the television NBC comedy Frasier. In the unusual episode, Glenn makes some very-unfunny comments directly to the viewing audience (out of earshot of Frasier and Roz) that are significance enough to repeat here: "Back in those glory days, I was very uncomfortable when they asked, you know, were you alone out there? We never gave the real answer, and yet we see things out there, strange things, but we know what we saw out there. And we couldn't really say anything. The bosses were really afraid of this, they were afraid of the `War of the Worlds' type stuff, and about panic in the streets. So, we had to keep quiet. And now we only see these things in our nightmares, or maybe in the movies, and some of them are pretty close to being the truth."

Cheers!

www.amazon.com...

[edit on 16-8-2008 by mikesingh]

reply to post by mikesingh


Excellent thread !

these are extremely thought provoking concepts here and love to contemplate these theory's especially the multi verse idea and how the cosmological constant can play a factor in what kinds of life can evolve or exist.

could post biological entities have no form, but exist only as pure forms of energy?

Yes ! ...this makes the most sense to me and would allow for an easier way for FTL travel as things are different on different dimensional levels.

if beings could travel to a different universe it would be most logical that if they were in an energy form rather than a biological or some sort of shell with an inteligence it would be easier to accomplish.

great thread ...star and a flag from me...

Originally posted by shipovfools
I don't see machines replacing us so much as achieving a sort of symbiosis with us.

But the point to note here is that we'll be the machines ourselves!! So there's no 'we' and 'them'! Weird, but that's the way it's going to be.

Cheers!

reply to post by mikesingh


You won't, for the most part, be the machines. The elites that sponsor this thinking have marked most of you for elimination, and those that haven't will be slaves, coaxed along with a carrot of cybernetic imortality.

And those that will "be" the machines will fall into insanity as the bond between mind and body is broken, leaving a poorly functioning automatism that is lost inside it's own complexity.

I just don't see it all coming together, machines without a spirit.

Originally posted by mikesingh
It is said that we utilize only about 10% of our brains! The computer revolution here on Earth has produced supercomputers capable of performing more than a quadrillion calculations per second! According to research by Hans Moravec, an artificial intelligence expert at Carnegie Mellon University, that is way ahead of the human brain's estimated top speed of 100 trillion calculations per second.

So that would translate to a quadrillion calculations per second if we utilized the full power of our brains! But then what? Would we be satisfied to remain stagnant at this level? Evolution would then force us to rapidly try and increase this capacity. But since we would have reached the peak efficiency of our biological brains, what would be the next step? AI with mind boggling capabilities - perhaps a trillion quadrillion calculations per second!!

Now is this frying your brain?

Wow! I stand corrected! You do have a valid point there. we would get there and be all like....wow, so this is it? I WANT IT FASTER!

Now I for one don't mind an 'A.I. companion,' as long as I, and only I, retain control over my body.

reply to post by mikesingh


I might add (blatant self-promotion follows), I posted a better version of this theory several months ago, right here:

Humans Evolved from Machines - Theory

...which was moved (without due consideration, I might add) to SkunkWorks.

To me, it makes perfect sense that nano-probes would be equipped to incorporate carbon materials into their next cycle of proliferation, which could evolve into sentient beings, given enough time.

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i just had a thaught we could be machines allready just because our bodys arent like anything we could create mechanicly dosent mean someone eles couldnt have created us and left us hear

or

how do we know tht any other life forms in the universe are more advanced than us we could be the most advanced beings in the universe not the least like every 1 insinuates

peace

reply to post by batch



As you go deeper into the microbiological levels you'll find that bio-systems are -very- mechanical, from the actin and myosin ratcheting in muscle fibers to way that proteins are built by RNA.

great op

when given the choice,a lifeform will choose to live.that's a captain obvious statement but apply it to the point at which we reach the ability to choose.at that point,the path we take will not be decided by biological entities.those will die.

the difficulty in formulating a probable pathway comes when trying to omit the ego.nature feeds on ego's.a sentient ai will know this and seperate itself from the biological.

when that happens the new lifeform will begin increasing it's knowledge at an exponential rate,in a matter of seconds contact with biological entities will become a non-issue,it will serve no purpose.

we seek to communicate with other animals in order to learn.where there is no possibility of learning,a non spiritual sentience will not attempt communication.eg the mothman prophecies "have you ever tried to make your intentions known to a cockroach?"

we can try all we like,but the roach is beyond our understanding,we can't communicate..in a flash the ai is beyond us

so then we're left with the typical biological v machine sf scenario.maybe it won't end in war.the ai would do well in it's early days to just bug out and not risk a confrontation..or not bother with it,and hook up with the others.

where does that leave us,the last link in an inexorable chain of events no doubt played out throughout eternity..we could just party.we exist at the peak of partying performance,give or take a few centuries

*the point at which we reach immortality coincides with the point at which immortality loses it's relevance..in a cyclical universe,i'd prefer 75 years of fun to 10 billion of existence

Originally posted by Badge01

I might add (blatant self-promotion follows), I posted a better version of this theory several months ago, which was moved (without due consideration, I might add) to SkunkWorks.

Duh!! Now I find it amusing that a Forum Mod's thread was moved 'without due consideration' to SkunkWorks!!! Lol! How can that happen? This is beyond bizarre, what?

To me, it makes perfect sense that nano-probes would be equipped to incorporate carbon materials into their next cycle of proliferation, which could evolve into sentient beings, given enough time.

Exactly! As someone mentioned, could WE be sentient machines too???