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posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 12:23 AM
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I almost feel like I SHOULD flame you just to be consistent :-p

I HATE YOU AND ALL THE THINGS YOU LIKE!!!

nah...just not me (hope you get at least a little laugh at that)

ok then...

. Yes, I laughed a little bit. Okay, back to the debate.



Some may feel threatened. Who knows

We most likely never will know why people feel threatened by progress. Last time I checked I don’t think that the Christian religion has said that progress must be stopped in the name of God or anything like that.





Let me make this one a two parter.

Frist off...I completely agree that in some and maybe even many cases you are absolutely right. I watch the reality show Big brother every year. It's my guilty little pleasure and every year I hear somebody say "God wants me to win this game." My response is, "Really? He took the time to assure you win a gameshow?"

Now on the other hand I also know a few of those cases are cases where they feel shunned by God in much more dire crises as well. Constant death and watching people taken away from you (their words not mine) can definately seem like you are shunned and give you a bleak outlook on...well actually ANY religion and deity. I had alot of deep down soul-bearing and important questions I asked God and the church and in neither case were any of my questions or plights answered. Now don't get me wrong here, I don't think a deity is to be used for foolish requests like the lottery. I think they are there to help you find your path but in mine and a few other situations he didn't do anything to guide us there.

Okay, that I can understand, but, I think they’re living under the assumption that God is omnipresent I might have said this before but if I didn’t—I think that God is the driving force within all of us—that we have called the divine spirit and it has given us life. There are other forces in the universe too, like death and tragedy. There are those that don’t accept that God has allowed these other forces to exist so they believe that God doesn’t exist because a God wouldn’t allow these forces to exist if one God did exist. I agree with you that God will help us in certain situations but in others God doesn’t do anything. There was one time in my early childhood and in when I was 18 years old… in my early childhood I was on medication because my parents thought I had ADHD… and now I’m off the medication and I’ve felt much better. Later on, last year, when I was 18, I was on some medication because my parents thought I had something else (two years ago I practically had a mental breakdown), and I’m off it now and I feel a lot better, and I’ve been feeling a lot more clear-headed and I believe this to be a gesture of God for having faith in myself.




I will admit that , be this considered weak-minded or not, I need proof. This may be the one thing we still and probably always will disagree on. However I think I see a very vivid issue here. I think I am not explaining myself well enough so pelase allow me to attempt again.

I referred to my sunflower seeds the other night. I held them and...well you read it. So what I am saying is that those sunflowers seeds existed and I have proof. Real and actual, physical proof. I could show them to you or let you hold the bag and shake it or, and this is more like my style, give you some to enjoy as well. I think it's safe to say with those actions I have proven that I have...well had sunflower seeds.

Now God on the other hand can't be shown to me, I can't feel him physically and I cannot smell him or touch him or taste his presence so to many, be them scientist or just thinkers he hasn't been proven to exist. Now we can see that the WTO has helped the African nations with food and medicine but again we can prove that the WTO exists. We can visit their headquarters and watch them as they, say...I dunno, plant seeds or teach a class but we can't prove God's existence to each other because until he physically proves himself, or in my case, Isis proves herself physically, we can't show each other and make the other not have any doubt. There is no proof that God performed miracles by say, laying down a monsoon to reopen valuable crop land in Africa because it could have been a coincidence. That was point and of course if you need more clarification I am always happy to provide.


Your issue is that you need proof that God exists. As I’ve said before I’ve already had experiences where I feel like God’s existence has been proven to me enough. Perhaps we will always disagree on this issue. I see that you would prefer physical proof—yet— in my mind I already have all the proof I need as far as I believe and it exists with my own mind—did I ever think that I would be able to think clearly after having been on so much medication when I was a child? I was one of those many children who were misdiagnosed by ADHD and had their childhood ruined by it. To me—being able to think clearly is a gift from God—or perhaps divine intervention on my life to allow me to keep living.




And here we agree once again. The issue I have is that who is to say the people who experienced the ghosts didn't have a powerful psychosomatic reaction due to an internal medical force? Now I will admit right here and now that I do believe in ghost and spirits and such. I have had an experience or two that leads me to believe they are out there but how do I prove it to a skeptic or even another believer?

I don’t think we will be able to prove the existence of ghosts and other spiritual ideals to people yet because they don’t believe it because they haven’t had experiences yet. Since things like these are outside their realm of experience they deny the existence of ghosts and spiritualistic things in nature existing.



Leaving all sarcasm aside I am very interested to hear your ideas on this.

I believe people have at one time thought that God made man in his own image. Evolution could very well be easily used to persuade people that God exists as much as people use it to persuade people that God doesn’t exist. It’s simple. Evolution didn’t happen by chance. How many planets are out there that could support life exist where a species evolved from a microorganism into a full humanoid capable of conquering the entire planet? Did that happen by chance? I doubt it.

this response will continue in the next post

[edit on 22-8-2008 by Frankidealist35]



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 12:24 AM
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This is one I can see myself conceding as well. I actually do wonder if the ultimate force hasn't had it's hand in a few events so actually I think we can agree here now that I've had some times to think.

I have a few theories about how people have individual free-will but how as a whole humanity is more or like a group… if you would be okay with me explaining my theories about group-consciousness I would like to hear what you think about them and tell me what leads you to also believe in divine intervention.



posted on Aug, 22 2008 @ 12:49 AM
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My goodness we are long winded :-p

Good to see you again tonight. I may not be on much this weekend but I will try



We most likely never will know why people feel threatened by progress. Last time I checked I don’t think that the Christian religion has said that progress must be stopped in the name of God or anything like that.


Agreed, I think the problem comes in with the 'men of God' who interpret however they want though the same could be said about the 'men against God' who just do what they feel like.



Okay, that I can understand, but, I think they’re living under the assumption that God is omnipresent I might have said this before but if I didn’t—I think that God is the driving force within all of us—that we have called the divine spirit and it has given us life. There are other forces in the universe too, like death and tragedy. There are those that don’t accept that God has allowed these other forces to exist so they believe that God doesn’t exist because a God wouldn’t allow these forces to exist if one God did exist. I agree with you that God will help us in certain situations but in others God doesn’t do anything. There was one time in my early childhood and in when I was 18 years old… in my early childhood I was on medication because my parents thought I had ADHD… and now I’m off the medication and I’ve felt much better. Later on, last year, when I was 18, I was on some medication because my parents thought I had something else (two years ago I practically had a mental breakdown), and I’m off it now and I feel a lot better, and I’ve been feeling a lot more clear-headed and I believe this to be a gesture of God for having faith in myself.


Ok first off I don't even wanna start on ADHD. I believe it exists but is far rarer then people think.

Now then. I think again this one was partially my fault because the way I viewed it, I thought you were saying this is the absolute truth and didn't so much regard others' opinions. Sorry if I have done so

Before I get into the main subject lemme quote your next set



Your issue is that you need proof that God exists. As I’ve said before I’ve already had experiences where I feel like God’s existence has been proven to me enough. Perhaps we will always disagree on this issue. I see that you would prefer physical proof—yet— in my mind I already have all the proof I need as far as I believe and it exists with my own mind—did I ever think that I would be able to think clearly after having been on so much medication when I was a child? I was one of those many children who were misdiagnosed by ADHD and had their childhood ruined by it. To me—being able to think clearly is a gift from God—or perhaps divine intervention on my life to allow me to keep living.


and...



I don’t think we will be able to prove the existence of ghosts and other spiritual ideals to people yet because they don’t believe it because they haven’t had experiences yet. Since things like these are outside their realm of experience they deny the existence of ghosts and spiritualistic things in nature existing.


This is where our 'disagreement' will easliy find common ground. I think lack of experience is what causes these issues. I've never honestly felt something that God has done for me. I do however believe he exists because he has obviously done things for others who follow him. On the other hand I hav experienced my goddess help me and talk to me in ways I never thought possible. Experience is indeed an issue but if I could change sociology a bit this is what i would do.

Get the 'too faithful' to realize experience is a good thing. Then I would get the 'unfaithful' to realize just because they don't see doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ahhhhh a world with harmony. Can you picture it with me my friend? Wouldn't it be superb?

The thing is, I don't doubt at all your experiences with God. You have done nothing but proven to me you are honest and open and it's nice to see myself not gettign bombarded for following Isis. excellent



I believe people have at one time thought that God made man in his own image. Evolution could very well be easily used to persuade people that God exists as much as people use it to persuade people that God doesn’t exist. It’s simple. Evolution didn’t happen by chance. How many planets are out there that could support life exist where a species evolved from a microorganism into a full humanoid capable of conquering the entire planet? Did that happen by chance? I doubt it.


Good description. I can appreciate that alot. I think we've found an agreement here that states

"A divine power started us and checks in on us once in a while."

I obviously wouldn't want to quote you without acceptance so would you say that is in the ballpark?



I have a few theories about how people have individual free-will but how as a whole humanity is more or like a group… if you would be okay with me explaining my theories about group-consciousness I would like to hear what you think about them and tell me what leads you to also believe in divine intervention.


Let me say that no matter what you do or believe I LOVE to learn new concepts from anyone non-beligerent. Please post your ideas and we'll move into that a bit too.

-Kyo



posted on Aug, 23 2008 @ 12:35 AM
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My goodness we are long winded :-p

Good to see you again tonight. I may not be on much this weekend but I will try

I don't think I'll be on a lot either. I have plans this weekend myself too.




Ok first off I don't even wanna start on ADHD. I believe it exists but is far rarer then people think.

Now then. I think again this one was partially my fault because the way I viewed it, I thought you were saying this is the absolute truth and didn't so much regard others' opinions. Sorry if I have done so

Before I get into the main subject lemme quote your next set

Yes, I believe ADHD exists, and I also think it’s far rarer than people think. I just was misdiagnosed with it, put on medication, and I was just saying how I got better after I got off of it, so like now I can think more clearly.

What did I say that made you think that something I said I thought was the absolute truth?



This is where our 'disagreement' will easliy find common ground. I think lack of experience is what causes these issues. I've never honestly felt something that God has done for me. I do however believe he exists because he has obviously done things for others who follow him. On the other hand I hav experienced my goddess help me and talk to me in ways I never thought possible. Experience is indeed an issue but if I could change sociology a bit this is what i would do.

Get the 'too faithful' to realize experience is a good thing. Then I would get the 'unfaithful' to realize just because they don't see doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ahhhhh a world with harmony. Can you picture it with me my friend? Wouldn't it be superb?

The thing is, I don't doubt at all your experiences with God. You have done nothing but proven to me you are honest and open and it's nice to see myself not gettign bombarded for following Isis. excellent

Yes, I also agree that people that are faithful in believing in God should not fear having experiences with God. I think that part of the problem is not lack of experience but I imagine that they fear that they would become unholy by having dealt with God or maybe they would be considered a sinner by their priest at their Church for trying to consort with God. There’s always the social stigma that they would encounter. As far as the unfaithful… it would be nice for them to start seeing that just because they don’t see something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. I’ve talked to a few of these people and I can’t believe that they mean what they say some of the time. They think that God doesn’t exist and that it’s all in people’s imaginations. They really need to be a little more open minded here. I agree with you completely. And yes, I do believe that we can communicate with God or the Goddess. I just think that a lot of people don’t want to try to communicate with a God or a Goddess because of what I said earlier-- that they think they might be considered unholy for having done so.




Good description. I can appreciate that alot. I think we've found an agreement here that states

"A divine power started us and checks in on us once in a while."

I obviously wouldn't want to quote you without acceptance so would you say that is in the ballpark?

Sure. Go ahead and quote me. You have my permission. Yes, and I’m glad that we have been able to find an agreement here. I’m aware that there are people that are out there that won’t tolerate the idea of evolution being a tool of the divine force that created the Universe because they won’t accept that. Thank you for respecting my opinion… I’ve talked to other people about evolution before and they think that it’s entirely natural-- that it happened by chance-- and they are very close minded to new ideas.



Let me say that no matter what you do or believe I LOVE to learn new concepts from anyone non-beligerent. Please post your ideas and we'll move into that a bit too.

Basically it’s like this. We are individual human beings. Aren’t we? I am myself. You are yourself. When you refer to yourself to other people you use the “I” pronoun which is singular referring to one person, being you. When you refer to “you” you can refer to one person or a group of people. Like basically humanity when they’re in groups they lose their power of individuals that we have when we’re in solitary. That said-- people can function as a group or people can function as an individual. I believe that the divine force that created the Universe through the system it built the Universe on can exert control or influence over various groups of people. The divine force created a system that places each major groups on countries and different groups on various continents and is exerting influence on all of these groups all the time. At other times when the world is chaotic or when the world is in too much order the divine force might control various groups to act against each or with each other based on a system that works on certain laws. That’s what I believe.



posted on Aug, 24 2008 @ 12:31 AM
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Also, to add to my previous post... I would like to mention how I don't believe that this system of rules don't bind us all the time. They don't always work in one way or some way. I believe that we have some freedom as a group to do what we want... and that we as people do have control over our actions as a group to what we do in a group. I just think that the divine force that started it all does have some role with historical events.

I look forward to your reply... I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts.



posted on Aug, 25 2008 @ 02:58 AM
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Well the weekend is sadly over. As much as I actually truly did look forward to picking this topic back up with you Ir eally had hoped for an extra day off :-p

Anyway let's get to it. Hope you had a good weekend.



What did I say that made you think that something I said I thought was the absolute truth?


I feel awful and hope you allow me some room to forgive me here. I looked back a bit and I can't seem to find out what I construed as you making an 'absolute truth'. Either way I fully admit I was wrong for thinking that way and I am sorry I can't find the exact detail. If I do I will happily post it as I assume by your calm demeanor you may have been asking me to point it out to assure you didn't mess something up.



As far as the unfaithful… it would be nice for them to start seeing that just because they don’t see something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. I’ve talked to a few of these people and I can’t believe that they mean what they say some of the time. They think that God doesn’t exist and that it’s all in people’s imaginations. They really need to be a little more open minded here. I agree with you completely. And yes, I do believe that we can communicate with God or the Goddess. I just think that a lot of people don’t want to try to communicate with a God or a Goddess because of what I said earlier-- that they think they might be considered unholy for having done so.


I agree completely. I would of course add that I wish both extremes wouldn't be so afraid to do something a bit different. I wish the religious masses would stop imposing on others and I certainly agree that I wish the non-faithful wouldn't jump to the conclusion that because it didn't happen to them it isn't real. It's a shame some middle ground can't be discovered.



The divine force created a system that places each major groups on countries and different groups on various continents and is exerting influence on all of these groups all the time.


So why do you think that force did it in this manner? I would post more but I wish to clarify before moving on.

-Kyo



posted on Aug, 26 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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Well the weekend is sadly over. As much as I actually truly did look forward to picking this topic back up with you Ir eally had hoped for an extra day off :-p

Anyway let's get to it. Hope you had a good weekend.

I had a fairly good weekend. Okay let’s get on with the debate.



I feel awful and hope you allow me some room to forgive me here. I looked back a bit and I can't seem to find out what I construed as you making an 'absolute truth'. Either way I fully admit I was wrong for thinking that way and I am sorry I can't find the exact detail. If I do I will happily post it as I assume by your calm demeanor you may have been asking me to point it out to assure you didn't mess something up.

I forgive you. I think you might have been thinking about the time I was trying to come up with an absolute truth that proved the existence of God when I thought you were an atheist. It wasn’t until I learned from you that you were a Pagan was when I changed my tone in talking to you. It’s just a knee-jerk reaction to come up with an ultimate truth to prove the existence of God that I have developed from talking to atheists on the internet and real life. When I saw that you weren’t an atheist I changed my tone. If anything you shouldn’t be the one apologizing… it should be me for apologizing you and having mistaken you for an atheist.



I agree completely. I would of course add that I wish both extremes wouldn't be so afraid to do something a bit different. I wish the religious masses would stop imposing on others and I certainly agree that I wish the non-faithful wouldn't jump to the conclusion that because it didn't happen to them it isn't real. It's a shame some middle ground can't be discovered.

I think the problem is with monotheism religions. A belief in a singular God and the knowledge of other religions also believing in a singular but different God has caused the religious masses to try to impose their will on other people, and, because the older religions like the one the Greeks had where there were many Gods aren’t popular there are a lot of unbelievers. I feel that the unbelievers would be more willing to accept the existence of multiple Gods.



So why do you think that force did it in this manner? I would post more but I wish to clarify before moving on.

I think that the divine spirit has created this system to keep some order in the world. That’s what I believe.



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 12:17 AM
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I feel that the unbelievers would be more willing to accept the existence of multiple Gods.


I can agree there. Probably feels more palatable to have choices. I do hope you understand I didn't choose Paganism as a cop out. In fact I didn't choose Isis at all, I think she chose me. I do hope that nobody ever chooses any religion because it's 'easier.' That is the cop out in my mind.



I think that the divine spirit has created this system to keep some order in the world. That’s what I believe.


I strongly prefer this answer because if I am not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, but ti seems you believe that this system leaves alot of choice to the people themselves. If it does then I can ride that theory all the way to the bank.

-Kyo



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by KyoZero
 


I can agree there. Probably feels more palatable to have choices. I do hope you understand I didn't choose Paganism as a cop out. In fact I didn't choose Isis at all, I think she chose me. I do hope that nobody ever chooses any religion because it's 'easier.' That is the cop out in my mind.

I actually should tell you before we continue to talk about religion is that I haven’t chosen a religion yet because I haven’t found one that has matched my belief system. I hope that sometime in the future I will find some religion that will comfort me as yours comforts yours.

Also, do you feel that anti-religious literature could have something to do with the negative attitudes towards the creation of the universe or multiverse by a divine spirit? I believe that anti-religious literature in nature has had a large effect on a lot of people and has caused a lot of people to be less willing to believe in a being higher than themselves.



I strongly prefer this answer because if I am not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, but ti seems you believe that this system leaves alot of choice to the people themselves. If it does then I can ride that theory all the way to the bank.

Yes, I believe that a lot of choices that people make are up to themselves. I feel that the ivine spirit sets up a system that we follow… one with rules… what is expected of people… but the majority of choices we make we hare able to make ourselves.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 04:23 AM
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Also, do you feel that anti-religious literature could have something to do with the negative attitudes towards the creation of the universe or multiverse by a divine spirit? I believe that anti-religious literature in nature has had a large effect on a lot of people and has caused a lot of people to be less willing to believe in a being higher than themselves.


It's quite possible. I mean no matter what you write you are gonna find SOMEONE to believe you. As soon as you find someone then you have more power. The more people there are the more power your belief has.

And I agree as a whole, we are largely responsible for what happens to us. What you described here is pretty much what I believe.

I'd be interested to hear what religions you've tried thus far.

-Kyo



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by KyoZero



It's quite possible. I mean no matter what you write you are gonna find SOMEONE to believe you. As soon as you find someone then you have more power. The more people there are the more power your belief has.

And I agree as a whole, we are largely responsible for what happens to us. What you described here is pretty much what I believe.

I'd be interested to hear what religions you've tried thus far.

-Kyo

Yes, I will agree with you that these writers have gained a lot of power in influencing people. I think they have influenced people to believe that religion has been used as a control mechanism for populations in the past which is one more reason why people don't like to believe in religion.

Note-- I didn't say we are completely responsible for what happens to us. I have a belief that we were dealt certain cards before we were born and we have to play them out throughout the course of our life. I also think like whenever something happens to me "it must have been the luck of a draw" or like "that was a bad hand I got in that situation". I believe in somewhat of a card game analogy towards life.

My Mom is Christian so I celebrate all of those holidays... I don't know where I first learned of heaven and hell but I have had the idea that if you're going to be good in life you're going to end up in a good place later on in the after life or the next life. I tried the Christian religion for a while but I fail to find deeper meanings in life with it. I don't have access to a bible. Like I've said before-- my Mom doesn't take me to church so I can't practice it. So I don't know if it would do me much good to believe in a religion I can't practice.

My Dad is Jewish. My Dad has actually taken me to Jewish synagogues and to Sunday School where I learned a little bit about Jewish values and the history of Judaism. Again, I like it but I can't really practice Judaism that much because I'm too old for Sunday School (I'm 19). I still celebrate the Jewish holidays with my Dad's side of my family but I really can't find the deeper meanings that I want from the Jewish religion. I've found some... but not all of them hold true to me.

I've also tried atheism and agnosticism. There was a time in my life when I thought I could fake it. I tried atheism because I thought I could believe in like religious principles without believing in God or a higher spirit or being or force but then I lost touch with my inner self. So I became agnostic after that. But now I'm not even agnostic anymore-- I just haven't chosen a religion yet.

I picked up two books from the library yesterday that I hope will help me pick the right religion I want. I got one book about mysticism. I think mysticism really speaks to me... and I also got a book that has detailed accounts of the principles of different world religions. I hope that some religion will call me to it that doesn't contradict with any of my beliefs. I really hope something like that is out there.



posted on Aug, 29 2008 @ 08:47 PM
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I'm sorry for how my last post turned out. I don't know why I'm having problems quoting your posts Anyways, can you tell me how you found the Pagan religion? How did you find out about it? I would like to hear more about your story with religion.



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 01:41 AM
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Science does not give any answers on what's beyond its grasp, but still derives everything it is from there.



posted on Aug, 31 2008 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by Wolfheart
 

I don't understand why that is. People who are into science should try to answers they think they cannot.

Also, I've found my religion, I fully believe in the principles of Hinduism. I just feel it's natural for me to believe in Hinduism because I feel a lot of the principles of the religion are true to me.



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