TWA 800 vs. Flight 93

There are some striking similarities in how TWA 800 and Flight 93 were investigated.

ntsbwatch.com...

The damaged Flight Data Recorder (FDR) was sent to its manufacturer before the
NTSB would analyze its data. Full CNN story

CNN Story Link: archives.cnn.com...

"The memory is there," said Black. "We just can't get to it."

ntsbwatch.com...

In August 2000, the National Transportation Safety Board reported that an electrical spark ignited fuel-air vapors in the jetliner’s central fuel tank and that the ensuing explosion in the tank caused the crash. The NTSB based their conclusion largely upon the work of two scientists they had commissioned to conduct analyses of recovered wing tank components using simulations and computer modeling.

Neither Baer, Shepherd, nor any other scientists commissioned by the NTSB, nor any NTSB investigators analyzed the debris associated with the supersonic explosion.

Further, although the debris was clearly recorded by all the nearby radar sites, the NTSB did not list it in their official debris field database.

NTSB Watch President Dr. Tom Stalcup has petitioned the NTSB for an explanation.

NTSB Watch sent its preliminary ballistics analysis to Shepherd and Baer. Neither scientist was willing to conduct a serious review of the information.

NTSB Watch also informed NTSB Sequencing Group Chairman Jim Wildey of the high-speed debris pattern. Wildey denied that anything exited the aircraft at supersonic speeds. When NTSB Watch offered to email Mr. Wildey a printout of the debris pattern, Wildey declined.

Copies of a preliminary ballistics analysis were emailed to Jim Wildey and NTSB Airplane Performance Specialist Dr. Daniel Bower last year. Neither responded.

Now look at Flight 93. FDR sent to manufacturer. NTSB not directly involved (it was under FBI jurisdiction). NTSB didn't investigate crash (this was left to FBI). Original records withheld. Evidence not investigated.

The wreckage has similarities, too.

Flight 93 is spread across a rather large area (RADAR debris in TWA RADAR plots), yet at the same time is reported to have crashed into a hole (TWA 800 said to have had CWT explode).

Reports of seeing other aircraft in vincinity (TWA eye witness reports of seeing something come up out of the water prior to crash).



FLAG THIS THREAD! It shows failures and/or cover-ups that are systemic.

Please see my other thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 12-8-2008 by mirageofdeceit]

TWA 800 was as big of a lie as 9/11... and the USS Maine... and the Lusitania... and Pearl Harbor... and the USS Liberty... and Gulf of Tonkin... and Operation Northwoods... and Ruby Ridge... and Waco... and Oklahoma City... and WMDs in Iraq, etc., etc., etc.

The lies never end.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


...but the thing is, we actually have some hard, verifiable proof that things are most certainly NOT as they're reported. We can actually show serious inconsistencies, and ask hard questions about why things weren't investigated as they should have been.

We can sit and postulate all we want - until we get more evidence like this, it's worth nothing.

[edit on 12-8-2008 by mirageofdeceit]

Fact about Flight 800 also is that it hit the water at several hundred miles an hour, broke into miliokns of small pieces but the Navy was able to find enough to do a reconstruction.

How come we have not seen a reconstruction of any of the 9/11 planes if they found as many pieces as the believers claim?



[edit on 13-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

The black boxes from the aircraft that hit the WTC were never recovered. That has to be a first for a land based crash.

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
The black boxes from the aircraft that hit the WTC were never recovered.

Well, even that's in dispute:

9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI

By DAVE LINDORFF
Dec. 19, 2005

One of the more puzzling mysteries of 9-11 is what ever happened to the flight recorders of the two planes that hit the World Trade Center towers. Now it appears that they may not be missing at all.

Counterpunch has learned that the FBI has them.

Flight recorders (commonly known as black boxes, though these days they are generally bright orange) are required on all passenger planes. There are always two-a flight data recorder that keeps track of a plane's speed, altitude, course and maneuvers, and a cockpit voice recorder which keeps a continuous record of the last 30 minutes of conversation inside a plane's cockpit. These devices are constructed to be extremely durable, and are installed in a plane's tail section, where they are least likely suffer damaged on impact. They are designed to withstand up to 30 minutes of 1800-degree heat (more than they would have faced in the twin towers crashes), and to survive a crash at full speed into the ground.

All four of the devices were recovered from the two planes that hit the Pentagon and that crashed in rural Pennsylvania. In the case of American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon, the FBI reports that the flight data recorder survived and had recoverable information, but the voice recorder was allegedly too damaged to provide any record. In the case of United Airlines Flight 93, which hit the ground at 500 mph in Pennsylvania, the situation was reversed: the voice recorder survived but the flight data box was allegedly damaged beyond recovery.

But the FBI states, and also reported to the 9-11 Commission, that none of the recording devices from the two planes that hit the World Trade Center were ever recovered.

There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. (The FBI denies the whole story.) Moreover, these devices are almost always located after crashes, even if not in useable condition (and the cleanup of the World Trade Center was meticulous, with even tiny bone fragments and bits of human tissue being discovered so that almost all the victims were ultimately identified). As Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs at the National Transportation Safety Agency which has the job of analyzing the boxes' data, says, "It's very unusual not to find a recorder after a crash, although it's also very unusual to have jets flying into buildings."

Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB.

"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."

www.counterpunch.org...

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit

The damaged Flight Data Recorder (FDR) was sent to its manufacturer before the
NTSB would analyze its data. Full CNN story

I do think there was something wrong with the investigation in TWA 800.

That being said, it is not uncommon for the NSTB to send the FDR to the manufacturer if the unit appears to be damaged. The manufacturer will extract data and send it to the FDR where the data is translated.

Ultima, the reason why 800 was reconstructed was they did not know the cause of the crash. I think it's safe to say why the 4 planes crashed on 911.

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
Reports of seeing other aircraft in vincinity (TWA eye witness reports of seeing something come up out of the water prior to crash).

I just watched a 2006 re-run of the Discovery Channel's "Best Evidence", which did a pretty fair analysis (for the MSM) of the TWA Flight 800 investigation. The story of the FBI's and NTSB's cover-up and blatant lies is so outrageous that it would leave you speechless.

Anyone who independently investigates TWA 800 will never believe another word the government says. The evidence for a missile strike is so overwhelming that it's amazing they'd even try to cover it up. Not only were there hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw a missile rise up from the ocean and impact TWA 800, Dr. Vernon Grose, one of the NTSB investigators who initially argued in favor of a fuel tank explosion, changed his mind and became an advocate for the missile proponents. Dr. Charles Welti, the former Suffolk County Chief Medical Examiner, says the passenger injuries he examined were inconsistent with a fuel tank explosion and claims the government covered-up what really happened.

Retired Brigadier General Benton Partin was former head of Military Weapons Research and Development who actually knew what type of surface-to-air missile was used, because he helped design it -- a proximity-fuse "continuous rod warhead" that he says exploded beneath Flight 800 and literally cut the plane in half. He sent a fax documenting this to former FBI chief James Kallstrom but never received a reply. The Navy has admitted to being in the area and performing military exercises that day. Dr. Tom Stalcup, who conducted an independent investigation on behalf of the victim's families, says he has radar data showing pieces of Flight 800 being ejected at supersonic speeds, which wouldn't have happened in a lower-velocity fuel tank explosion.

Investigators even found the plastic explosives PETN and RDX from missile warheads in the interior of the plane, a red stain across several rows of seats. The FBI now admits this, but says it was residue from training bomb-sniffing dogs! One investigator was so disgusted that he cut out a piece of seat fabric and sent it to 60 Minutes, who promptly turned it over to the FBI, who then arrested the investigator for tampering with evidence!

Retired TWA Captain Michael Potter closely followed the investigation. He says that not only was no ignition source ever found, but that after millions of operating hours, no 747 fuel tank has ever exploded and there's not a shred of evidence to support this theory. The families of the 35 TWA employees who were on board Flight 800 say they haven't been given the truth. Allied with eyewitnesses, they took out full-page newspaper ads accusing the government of lying. But a couple weeks ago -- 12 friggin' years later -- the FAA finally mandated a billion-dollar fuel tank retrofit (Captain Weedwhacker, are you listening?)


Anyone who says 9/11 is too big or too outrageous to be successfully covered-up doesn't know the story of TWA 800.




[edit on 14-8-2008 by GoldenFleece]

My wife's sister has a friend who worked in the military at the time of TWA 800. He said it was, in fact, a missile fired accidentally by the navy that brought the plane down. He said it was common knowledge at that time among military personnel but attempts were made to cover it up because the government was worried about the public backlash and outcry. He claimed that many people who were involved with the accident were devastated by the loss of life and the subsequent "need" to cover up what really happened.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Ultima, the reason why 800 was reconstructed was they did not know the cause of the crash. I think it's safe to say why the 4 planes crashed on 911.

Well thats where you are wrong again. There was a reconstruction done of Flight 800 as part of a criminal investagtion.

Flight 800 was origianlly a criminal investigation becaue it was first believed a bomb caused the mid-air explosion. Then it was a criminal investigation again when witnesses stated they saw a missle.

Reconstructions are part of a criminal investigation, so i will ask again how come we have seen no reconstruction on flight 93 as part of the investigation?

[edit on 14-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

TWA 800 always looked a bit dodgy to me and I've always thought there was some truth to rumours at the time that this flight was purposely shot down by a ground to air missile due to something or someone on the flight someone wanted destroyed. Wether or not this is what happened is kind of irrelevant. What is relevant is the similarities between this and flight 93.

If there are any that is. however, I know someone who told me a relative to them actually saw flight 93 shot down over Pensylvania by two F18 (or similar) fighter aircraft on 9/11. Make of that what you will, but I believe my source 100% and they have no reason to make it up, on the contrary they wish they could wipe the memory of it, and they are very scared at the possibilty that they were the only ones to see what happened and that they might be hurt in case they broadcast what they saw, to the point that they wont event talk about it anymore.

Your friend isn't alone. United Flight 93 was definitely shot down, but even the mayor of Shanksville won't talk about it anymore.

Interesting paragraph at the end of this article about the "remarkable differences" between the probes of UA 93 and AA 587 two months later:

Flight 93: We know it crashed, but not why

FBI is silent, fueling "shot down" rumors

By WILLIAM BUNCH
[email protected]
Thursday, November 15, 2001

SHANKSVILLE, Pa. - Ernie Stuhl is the mayor of this tiny farming borough that was so brutally placed on America's psychic map on the morning of Sept. 11, when United Airlines Flight 93 slammed nose-down into the edge of a barren strip-mine moonscape a couple of miles outside of town.

A 77-year-old World War II veteran and retired Dodge dealer, he's certainly no conspiracy theorist.

And, when you ask Stuhl for his theory of what caused the jetliner to crash that morning, he will give you the prevailing theory - that a cockpit battle between the hijackers and burly, heroic passengers somehow caused the Boeing 757 to spiral out of control. "There's no doubt in my mind that they did put it down before it got to Washington and caused more damage," he said.

But press the mayor for details, and he will add something surprising.

"I know of two people - I will not mention names - that heard a missile," Stuhl said. "They both live very close, within a couple of hundred yards. . .This one fellow's served in Vietnam and he says he's heard them, and he heard one that day." The mayor adds that based on what he knows about that morning, military F-16 fighter jets were "very, very close."

If the mayor of Shanksville still seems conflicted about what caused the crash of Flight 93 two months ago, he is hardly alone. As the initial shock of Sept. 11 wears off, the crash some 80 miles east of Pittsburgh, and what caused it, is beginning to emerge as the greatest mystery from the worst terrorist attack in American history.

No one has fully explained why the plane went down, or what exactly happened during an eight-minute gap from the time all cell phone calls from the plane stopped and the time it crashed.

And the FBI, which assumed control of the probe from the National Transportation Safety Board, refuses to release data from either of the critical "black boxes," the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder.

Citing the ongoing war on terrorism, the FBI says it can't say when it will release the data - or indeed, if it ever will.

"It's evidence in an ongoing criminal investigation," an FBI spokesman in Pittsburgh, Jeff Killeen, said last week.

This week, the nation was rocked by another jetliner crash - American Airlines Flight 587 in New York - and the difference in the way the probes have been handled is remarkable. In the latest crash, federal officials released detailed information about the cockpit voice recorder in less than 36 hours.

dailynews.philly.com...

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Your friend isn't alone. United Flight 93 was definitely shot down, but even the mayor of Shanksville won't talk about it anymore.

There is an NSA document that states Flight 93 was intercepted and the pilots had shoot down orders.

Which contidicts that media version that states no planes were near Flight 93.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Cough up the document Ultima.

The reconstruction was to find out what IN FACT caused the crash. Was there a cover up?

The thing I'm trying to wrap myself around is why the elaborate ruse. Why not fess up right away that the plane was confirmed to have been hijacked, was clearly headed for a government target, and was taken down to avoid even greater loss of life. After the other planes hitting the WTC, I think it wasn't unreasonable to say it was likely everyone on the plane would die anyway. I'm not trying to be insensitive here at all because any loss of life, no matter the reason, is tragic. Also, if I had been a family member of someone on that flight, sure, I would have been upset that it was shot down but I think the world as a whole would have understood the reasoning in doing so.

In the case of TWA 800, specific motivations would have come into play for a cover up whether it was to hide the murder/assassination of someone specific on the flight or negligence in an accidental shoot down or some other reason. The obvious motivation to shoot down Flight 93 would have been to prevent an even worse case scenario in not doing so. So why cover something like that up? How do others feel about this idea?

Originally posted by trek315
The thing I'm trying to wrap myself around is why the elaborate ruse. Why not fess up right away that the plane was confirmed to have been hijacked, was clearly headed for a government target, and was taken down to avoid even greater loss of life.

Why tell the truth when you can fool the sheeple with a phony feel-good story about the heroic "let's roll" passengers who banded together and defeated the evil "Arab hijackers", which makes a nice metaphor for BushCo and the neocons to let's-roll their way into the Middle Eastern oil fields, the Afghan poppy fields and perpetual war.

In the case of TWA 800, specific motivations would have come into play for a cover up whether it was to hide the murder/assassination of someone specific on the flight or negligence in an accidental shoot down or some other reason.

I haven't heard anything specific about Flight 800, which I believe was an accident, but do you know the story of Congressman Larry McDonald, who was head of the John Birch Society, and KAL Flight 007? There's a lot more to that story than most realize.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by GoldenFleece]

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Cough up the document Ultima.

The reconstruction was to find out what IN FACT caused the crash. Was there a cover up?

I have shown evidence of the document, the document itself is classified.

What reconstruction are you talking about?



[edit on 15-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Any news about TWA 800 recently been disclosed? I was on a flight that passed over the New York WTC area in July 1996. JFK is a busy airport and I'm glad we didn't have to land there. Are there any conspiracy versions of the TWA 800 incident that speculate it may have been a trial media event for 911?

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
TWA 800 was as big of a lie as 9/11... and the USS Maine... and the Lusitania... and Pearl Harbor... and the USS Liberty... and Gulf of Tonkin... and Operation Northwoods... and Ruby Ridge... and Waco... and Oklahoma City... and WMDs in Iraq, etc., etc., etc.

The lies never end.

How was Pearl Harbor a lie? The Japanese did Attack. Policies enacted by the US left them no choice but to act fast or give up in their imperial aspirations, but in the end it was the Japanese whom attacked.

reply to post by Merinda


Pearl Harbor is placed in this category as it is proven to have been allowed to happen by our government to help further our causes in the Far East, well to get them started I should say as TPTB were itching to go to war and the vast majority of the nation was against it. There is a slew of sites whee you can read of this. Here below is one that wa found easily through a web search and gave a good overlook about the situation.

truth11.com... it-could-to-cause-a-japanese-attack-on-americ/

The opening paragraph of the linked article below

Over the years there were rumors that “FDR allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to happen” but these were cast aside as crackpot conspiracy theories, backed by zero evidence. But such dismissals didn’t work when Robert Stinnett published his book“Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor”in 1999.Stinnett, a decorated WWII veteran and author, requested files about the attack, and the events preceding it, through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). He discovered that FDR not only knew about the attack in advance, but that his administration did everything it could to cause a Japanese attack on America. One of the most important pieces of information that Stinnett came across was the McCollum memo, which outlined eight points that the FDR administration could do to instigate a dramatic response by the Japanese without the Congress, or the American people getting too suspicious, like cutting off economic ties with Japan, refusing it oil, establishing relations with Japan’s main enemy, China, and other provocations. Stinnett’s book is centered on the new historical evidence that he gathered, which is rigorously documented.

Hope I did all of that right I have hardly posted over the last year or so

That is all

Trowa