The Concept of "Free will" is a lie!!, page 1

privacy

Pages: << 1 2 3 4 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 11 times

Topic started on 11-8-2008 @ 11:11 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Clarence Darrow: "Every one knows that the heavenly bodies move in certain paths in relation to each other with seeming consistency and regularity which we call [physical] law. ... No one attributes freewill or motive to the material world. Is the conduct of man or the other animals any more subject to whim or choice than the action of the planets? ... We know that man's every act is induced by motives that led or urged him here or there; that the sequence of cause and effect runs through the whole universe, and is nowhere more compelling than with man." Quoted in Lecture Notes on Free Will and Determinism by Norman Swartz.

"Free Will"

Baron D’Holbach: “The inward persuasion that we are free to do, or not to do a thing, is but a mere illusion. If we trace the true principle of our actions, we shall find, that they are always necessary consequences of our volitions and desires, which are never in our power. You think yourself free, because you do what you will; but are you free to will, or not to will; to desire, or not to desire? Are not your volitions and desires necessarily excited by objects or qualities totally independent of you?” From Good Sense Without God.

True

I think these two statements are very true. Can you really do anything that is not determined by circumstance of consequence? Nope... How is that really "free will?" How can someone say that you have "free will" when you have factors, other than what you really want to do, determining your decisions?

The perspective that I argue from is called "naturalism." Basically it is a line of thought which questions the validity of the idea of "free will." Any thinking prson has questioned the concept of "free will" at sometime of other.

Abraham Lincoln: “The human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control.”

What Lincoln said in the above statement is exactly the way that I feel about "free will." Most of our decisions are made either by circumstance of fear. Fear of what? The consequences of any decision we really WANT to make.

Locke3 and Hume4 have extended Hobbes's "freedom to do without restriction" to "the power to do or not as one wills." This meaning makes freedom strictly a power, an ability, restricted to the person, and not a freedom of the will. The will may be fully determined by psychological or biological forces and conditions; yet an individual may be externally free to act out this determined course. For Locke, the will is as I have defined it, a power to choose.

Power

It is argued that "free will" is the power of choice. Well, what about circumstances where our choices are limited? Is that still "free will?" If so, then how? You see, i my mind, "free will" would constitue being able to do anything. Yes, anything. However, we all know that we cannot do just anything. Not only are there universal laws by which we must abide, but legal as well.

Now, some ma argue that I am making the issue more complex than it really is. I don't think so. If we are to assume that "free will" is a FACT, then there should be some REAL evidence of it. If you look at the classical definition of "free will," by the intelligencia, then you come to realize that objectively it doesn't exist.

We are free insofar as we alone determine our behavior. We are not free when others dictate or hamper our decisions or for reasons of illness or incapacity we cannot determine our actions. This meaning carries the question from the external empirical realm to the inner psychological domain of will or subjective determination.

Another hitch

Another hitch in the whole concept of "free will" is that often our actions are determined by the actions of others. Would we, for example, have went after "terrorists" had they not attacked the WTC buildings? I'd submit to you no we woulen't have. No one WANTS to fight, yet, once again, action is determined by circumstance, not so -called "free will."

You see, one cannot have it both ways. You can't say that one is a victim of circumstance but still has "free will." No, a victim of circumstance HAS to do what he/she HAS to do. That is not "free will" That is force.

What is his power which forces an individual to act as he or she must? From whence does circumstance and consequence emerge? Is it just a product of universal law or something much, much stranger.

Honestly, being someone who believes in a Godhead, I have to say that we play the role we were individually meant to lay. Look at the universe, particularly our solar system. The planets rotate just as they should. Do they not? Are we to assume that this is just a cosmic accident or joke? I think not;I think not.

Now, take all of this a step further. Are we just simulations in some bigger picture? Is there an entity/ entities playing us and watching the outcome? If so, who?

I realize that I have raised more questions than I have answered. However, it is something that I have thought about for quite some time. I'd be interested in hearing what others thought on this topic. Do you believe in "free will." If so, why? If not, why not?

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:24 PM by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION

I agree that free will is an illusion. A very persistent one however. Try choosing what your next 10 thoughts will be.
If you ponder this deep enough, you might question what exactly the "self" is. It's like a camera that takes credit/ownership for what it sees.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:26 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION
I agree that free will is an illusion. A very persistent one however. Try choosing what your next 10 thoughts will be.
If you ponder this deep enough, you might question what exactly the "self" is. It's like a camera that takes credit/ownership for what it sees.

Very true. Also, some will say, "Well, you can choose to be good or bad."Yeah, but we are predispostioned towards one or the other. If not through upbringing, experience. So, again, how is that "free wil."

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:28 PM by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION

There are choices, just no one there who makes them.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:30 PM by eNumbra

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION
I agree that free will is an illusion. A very persistent one however. Try choosing what your next 10 thoughts will be.
If you ponder this deep enough, you might question what exactly the "self" is. It's like a camera that takes credit/ownership for what it sees.

Very true. Also, some will say, "Well, you can choose to be good or bad."Yeah, but we are predispostioned towards one or the other. If not through upbringing, experience. So, again, how is that "free wil."

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

What of those who overcame such adversities? or were they just preconditioned too?

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:32 PM by SpeakerofTruth

reply to post by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION

Well, I mean,.... hmmmm...

What the brain perceives and what is real are two opposite things. If I "see" a man dying on a sidewalk, I have to make up my mind whether to help or not. There are consequences to both decision. However, one carries more "weight" than the other. Most people are inclined to make the "decision" which is lighter than the other.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:34 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by eNumbra

[What of those who overcame such adversities? or were they just preconditioned too?

However, they were conditioned to make the decisions to overcome those adversities. Also, there is the qustion of what one considers an adversity. What is an adversity to one is "just life" to another.

For example, some people are born dealing with an adversity. For example, being limbless.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:41 PM by eNumbra

But some don't, some would help. Sure because they may have been brought up differently, but that doesn't explain away everyone.

Clearly the idea of perception over reality comes into play and those of us who believe in free will may be programmed to dislike the idea of being unable to truly control our actions, while those that believe there is no free will may simply be programmed to enjoy a feeling of a lack of responsibility for what happens around them.

Personally I don't believe i have enough experience or knowledge to know the answer, but I lean towards free will. Our daily decisions are influenced by events past, but the final decision comes down to the moment.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:43 PM by Johnmike

Well...you have the power to choose. But the choice you make is determined by your circumstances. So you can pick whatever you want, but what you pick is basically determined by everything in the universe, including how your mind works.

If that makes any sense.

But you have to understand that while free will isn't absolute throughout time, it does exist in every instance of the present, so you may actually choose what you do. It is important to understand this, else you fall into a sort of nihilism.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:45 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Some will ask, "If there is no free will, then why do we think about our actions?" Here is a fairly simplistic rebuttal to this question.

The behaviorist, however, has a quite plausible counter‑ argument to this. The reason why we deliberate is that there exists certain sets of conditioning which are of equal “strength.”

Counter

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:49 PM by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION

It is always "now". The only thing you can change is the future, which doesn't exist. The now cannot be changed.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:50 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Johnmike
Well...you have the power to choose. But the choice you make is determined by your circumstances. So you can pick whatever you want, but what you pick is basically determined by everything in the universe, including how your mind works.

If that makes any sense.

But you have to understand that while free will isn't absolute throughout time, it does exist in every instance of the present, so you may actually choose what you do. It is important to understand this, else you fall into a sort of nihilism.

WEll, yeah, we can choose what we do. However, what makes us make that choice? Is it really "free will," or programming. If you take someone who has been ina sensory deprivation tank, guess what. They are indifferent. Do they CHOOSE to be indifferent, or is it more of a by-product of them not being exposed to anything? If it is the latter rather than the former, which it is, then "free will" has absolutely nothing to do with their indifference.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:52 PM by eNumbra

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Johnmike
Well...you have the power to choose. But the choice you make is determined by your circumstances. So you can pick whatever you want, but what you pick is basically determined by everything in the universe, including how your mind works.

If that makes any sense.

But you have to understand that while free will isn't absolute throughout time, it does exist in every instance of the present, so you may actually choose what you do. It is important to understand this, else you fall into a sort of nihilism.

WEll, yeah, we can choose what we do. However, what makes us make that choice? Is it really "free will," or programming. If you take someone who has been ina sensory deprivation tank, guess what. They are indifferent. Do they CHOOSE to be indifferent, or is it more of a by-product of them not being exposed to anything? If it is the latter rather than the former, which it is, then "free will" has absolutely nothing to do with their indifference.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

Why must something make us make the choice? Why is it not simply choice?

Becuase we have been taught certain morals and ethics, appropriate ways to react in situations, our brain then calculates and we react.

We can go all the way back to prerecorded history man, when he encountered something that could easily kill him, he ran, out of self-preservation. Which is simply an instinct, one of the most powerful infact.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by eNumbra]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:52 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by WEOPPOSEDECEPTION
It is always "now". The only thing you can change is the future, which doesn't exist. The now cannot be changed.

Well, that's true. However, what happens in the future is often determined by what happens now.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:54 PM by Shazam The Unbowed

Thats right. Free will is a lie. I know because I made it up. Everyone on earth does exactly what I want them too. I just let you think its your idea.
Im cool like that.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:54 PM by Johnmike

Because why did you make the choice? If there was no reason, it would be randomness, and it is not.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:55 PM by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by eNumbra
Why must something make us make the choice? Why is it not simply choice?

Honestly, how many times have you made a decision to do anything that wasn't determined by exterior circumstances. You work,right? Why? Because if you don't, you don't eat and have a substantial living. You sleep, right? Why? Because if you don't, you run your physical shell down. Follow me?

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:55 PM by JesterMan

I tend to disagree. I just now clapped my hands for no reason at all, other than I felt like doing it. As I type I am tapping my feet to the beat of a song that I am in the process of recording. There are lots of thing that we do that we simply do just because we can. Every time an artist paints a picture, or a musician writes a song, it is done by free will even if it is inspired. It takes free will just for people to get off their butts and do anything. If I sat around and waited for the planets to shift into the right position that I would be given lots of money and a house I would be totaly screwed.

I can see the point here and understand how certain situations could put someone in a position to do certain things, but we always have the choice to do just nothing.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:58 PM by eNumbra

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by eNumbra
Why must something make us make the choice? Why is it not simply choice?

Honestly, how many times have you made a decision to do anything that wasn't determined by exterior circumstances. You work,right? Why? Because if you don't, you don't eat and have a substantial living.

How does that not allow it to be free will? I could choose where I worked, but i'd have a reason for moving wouldn't I... hrm, perplexing.

You sleep, right? Why? Because if you don't, you run your physical shell down. Follow me?

Lol. Really?! If I could choose not to sleep I would, I can't however, because it's linked to an internal biological function.

You're argument is little more than "God exists because he does".

[edit on 11-8-2008 by eNumbra]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 11:58 PM by SpeakerofTruth

reply to post by JesterMan

What was it that predispositioned you to make you want to clap your hands? Perhaps you were raised in an environment where "to prove someone incorrect" was viewed as an asset. I am not saying that is a bad thing, I am just saying that generally, when we sa that we do something "freely," it is only "free" to an extent.

Pages: << 1 2 3 4 >> ^^TOP^^