Confirmed: SS-21 Scarab launchers in S. Ossetia!

with these scarabs launchers being brought into the war I wonder if anybody in a ssbn is feeling like they are living out the plot to the movie crimson tide. Hope they aren't getting orders to possibly be on standby to launch their missiles in retaliation in case of the possibility that the scarabs are nuclear tipped.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


I hope russia is as smart about all of this as you seem to feel. However, there is this thread

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

Godfather,

Yes, terrorise, like the S.O. did by launching 2 days of attacks before that was responded to by Georgia.

Terrorize, like Russia's threat to poland/ukraine about supporting Georgia.

"Russia is sending a strong to their actions"
So that would be, it's ok for S.O. to have two days of terrorist attacks, the so-called Russian peacekeepers will do nothing to or about this terrorism.
When Geprgia does something, "THEN" Russia decides it needs to defend people, and , of course, it is defending the terrorists who started this.


"Russia just announced that military forces are standing down and that all offensive operations have stopped. "

Sorry, they have not stopped.
There are still bombing runs and there are still Russian troops on Georgian soil.

"Their not "absorbing" Georiga, don't be sensationalist."
If you read, Putin said a number of times he wanted/ intended a regime change in Georgia-change to a Russian puppet government-pffff

"They didn't set a foot into Georgian territory."
Even Russian news admits their are Russian men in Georgia proper.

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Pretty soon Saakashvili will come back down to reality and get over his "Territorial integrity" obsession and realise he can't keep an iron-fisted grip on people who don't want to be part of Georgia.

He'll let it go, the region will stabilise and Russia will see no need for further action.

Well, since the "Territorial integrity" is the central part of his political platform, I can hardly see him letting go of these provinces. Simply impossible. At best, it will become a "frozen conflict" for years to come.

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Yes, terrorise, like the S.O. did by launching 2 days of attacks before that was responded to by Georgia.

If there were indeed 2 days of attack we would have surely heard about this on Western media who's decidedly on Georgian side, by the way. Saakashvili would have already been all over the news with his silly background of EU flags (what a travesty). We didn't hear ANYTHING until Russia finally reposnded to Georgian bombardment. So that's some litmus paper for you.

And by the way, I saw a Georgia rep on BBC World last night -- he was totally dodging the questions about how did they get prepared to bomb and invade Tskhinvali -- you need to plan AHEAD and truck in all the supplies including these damn rockets. So don't give me that spiel about reponse to 2 days of attacks -- it takes more time to prepare for this.



[edit on 12-8-2008 by buddhasystem]

reply to post by buddhasystem

Here's a YouTube video of
Tochka in action.

Not bad

I still personally think the TOS-1 takes the cake as the most potent short-range, MRLM system in the Russia inventory:
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira



Well yeah, the Iskander comes 30 years after the Tochka, there must be improvements overall

I agree on price/performance -- Iskander must be quite expensive, from waht I saw.

reply to post by mrmonsoon

Yes, terrorise, like the S.O. did by launching 2 days of attacks before that was responded to by Georgia.

Source?

Terrorize, like Russia's threat to poland/ukraine about supporting Georgia.

"One must not hurry on such serious issues, as serious mistakes can be made that have to be paid for a long time afterwards," Alexander Veshnyakov was quoted as saying by BNS.

www.nasdaq.com...\ACQDJON200808110842DOWJONESDJONLINE000221.htm&&mypage=newsheadlines&title=Russia %20Warns%20Baltics,%20Poland%20To%20Pay%20For%20Georgia%20Stance-Report

You call that a threat?
Hardly...

Russia is referring to Eastern Europe's dependence on Russian gas and oil and how quickly those privileges can be taken away if they continue to back Georgia.
Hence the "long time" reference, a long time with heavily reduced energy supplies and high prices, not a long time of attacks sheesh.

Russia ain't that stupid. I think you really like to paint things in dark tones here, all this "doom & gloom" and fear-mongering is not only baseless, it's contagious.

Please stop spreading it until you can verify it has the slimmest chance of happening.

Military action against Ukraine or Eastern Europe would most definitely invoke the wrath of NATO and the West as that's too close for comfort.

There is NO WAY Russia is risking coming to blows with the US/NATO over Saakashvili and his bullsh*t territories.

Read what I said before about Russia's dependence on the West, they can't afford that right now.

Sorry, they have not stopped.
There are still bombing runs and there are still Russian troops on Georgian soil.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are the only regions Russian troops are stationed in.

Find me one credible source that claims Russian troops are on Georgian soil.
To my knowledge there are still sporadic air sorties, but hardly all-out ground warfare between the two sides.
It has lulled for the time being.

If you read, Putin said a number of times he wanted/ intended a regime change in Georgia-change to a Russian puppet government-pffff

Everyone talks tough.

Bush has threatened Russia, Putin has threatened the West... are they going to act upon all these threats?

Make a distinction between what's being said and what's being done.
No Russian troops are moving into Georgia nor is Russia amassing as sizeable army for an assault.

Their forces are firmly garrisoned in Tshninvali and South Ossetia and are not moving an inch. That's the objective right there.

Look at the big picture. Yeah Putin says this and Putin says that, it's irrelevant, all politicians are natural liars.

Putin wouldn't dare risk drawing America into this and that's exactly how he would accomplish it, by invading Georgia.

reply to post by buddhasystem

Well yeah, the Iskander comes 30 years after the Tochka, there must be improvements overall

I wasn't referring to the Iskander, the TOS-1 is completely different. A Multiple Rocket Launch System, like the Smerch or Grad but their latest variant, very potent stuff, check out the video.

I suggest everyone take note of this video, explains very well why the SS-21's were moved into Ossetia:

www.youtube.com...

The basic jist of it is, Russia was anticipating the West to intervene. Russian doctrine dictated that if Russian forces were attacking with precision-guided munitions from the West they would respond with tactical Nuclear weapons, precision-guided munitions are equal to tactical warheads in Russia's eyes.

Hence this was not a message to Georgia, but Washington; they sent two token SRBM's in there (token, simply a sign of the lengths Russia was prepared to go to) as basically a small reminder, to say in effect that Russia will not hesitate to go all out on any Western forces that try to intervene in this conflict.

It was not a threat against the Georgians.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Godfarther,

Here is a link about russian men and equipment on Georgian soil-it is AP news.
AP News

"On Tuesday, an Associated Press reporter counted 135 Russian military vehicles - included tanks, armored personnel carriers and three pieces of artillery - driving through Georgia toward Kodori Gorge."

If you don't lik AP news, I can find other news sources for you.
Just don't expect me to quote Russian news, as it is "questionable" at best.

Here is a Dutch news station,RTL television news:
"RTL television news, a Dutch station, reported that at least five people were killed when Russian warplanes bombed Gori, including its cameraman."

"n the villages once populated by ethnic Georgians on the outskirts of Tskhinvali, South Ossetian fighters reportedly set fire to Georgian houses, and carried out searches in the villages."
Now whom is doing ethnic cleansing???

Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
It was not a threat against the Georgians.

...who would surely be appreciative of that, when coughing up radioactive dust!

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

Sorry off topic but....

Let me get this straight, Russia says a presion guided missile/bomb with conventional warhead is the same a a nuclear weapon??? Are you kidding me???

Putin need to put down the crack-pipe and come back to Earth.


It seems, godfather, you are implying the Missiles Russia has placed on Georgian soil are Nuclear tipped???
I know we all realize they can hold: cluster bombs, biological,chemical and nuclear warheads.

I have not seen any news reports confirming the missiles are nuclear tipped-though it would not overly surprise me.

reply to post by mrmonsoon

Here is a link about russian men and equipment on Georgian soil-it is AP news.

So they have 135 or so men+change and vehicles in Georgia next to the Abkhazian border.

That's not evidence of an invasion or intention to occupy Georgia. They'd need a bit more that.
It's an incursion/special operation most likely to knock out some key infrastructure/weaponry.
It'll most likely be very minor considering the size of the force.

Btw... Did you read it all?

Associated Press writers Chris Torchia reported from Zugdidi, Georgia; Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili from Tbilisi, Georgia; David Nowak from Gori, Georgia; Douglas Birch from Vladikavkaz, Russia; Jim Heintz,

It's written by Western and Georgian journalists, whom as we all know haven't been the least impartial when it comes to reporting on this conflict.

You only need to look at broadcasts from the BBC, CNN, FOX, or Reuters to see it's plainly obvious which way they swing on this conflict.

"n the villages once populated by ethnic Georgians on the outskirts of Tskhinvali, South Ossetian fighters reportedly set fire to Georgian houses, and carried out searches in the villages."
Now whom is doing ethnic cleansing???

Hmm.... something about tasting one's own medicine?

Sounds like it. Who grenaded civilian basements and displayed dead Russian pilots on TV and executed injured soldiers?
Who killed 1,400 civilians?

Georgia stepped over that line and forgoed any notion of conventions or rules when they indiscriminately attacked civilians and engaged in war crimes.
They're fair game now, of course the Ossetians are going to respond in kind to such acts.

More dribbling about nothing...................................................

reply to post by mrmonsoon

Russia says a presion guided missile/bomb with conventional warhead is the same a a nuclear weapon??? Are you kidding me???

What's so crazy about that... Georgia's never even heard of the Geneva Convention.

According to Saakashvili, civilians, homes and injured Russian soldiers are all fair game in a conflict and should be deliberately targeted.

Your not getting it: Precision-Guided munitions are designed more often than not to take out key infrastructure/material and reduce an adversaries ability to wage war.
Hence why they are Precision weapons, to destroy precisely outlined targets that have considerable strategic importance attached to them. Not everything and anything.

(Command centres, bunkers, comms equipment, radars, etc...)

Tactical Nukes are designed for the very same purpose. To greatly reduce the ability to coherently fight and wage war.
Therefore they see the two as equal in terms of their objectives, but obviously different in the means in which they achieve them.

Besides precision-guided weapons/smart bombs are not to be underestimated, GBU's carry very heavy conventional yields, especially the Earth-penetrating ones (which can be armed with Tactical Nuclear Warheads).
The damage suffered to key targets would likely be the same regardless if a Nuclear weapon or a precision munition hit them, they would be damaged beyond repair and unusable in the course of the war.

It seems, godfather, you are implying the Missiles Russia has placed on Georgian soil are Nuclear tipped???
I know we all realize they can hold: cluster bombs, biological,chemical and nuclear warheads.

That's what the video implies, not me.

It would seem likely they would contain Nuclear Warheads but for all we know they're hollow.
Nobody's going to inspect them that's for sure so we can only speculate.

But had the West actually decided to intervene, I'm sure they would have be armed and ready to go.
I think these SS-21's could easily be show pieces, they wouldn't even have to be loaded, it's just foreshadowing what's to come if the West wants to get involved here.

reply to post by Interestinggg

More dribbling about nothing...................................................

Don't post so much information at once, it's quite hard to comprehend such detailed and informative posts...

If you have something decent to contribute, by all means share it, don't tell us we're "dribbling" when your posting one line replies.

"Better to keep your mouth closed and let people assume your stupid, rather than to open it and remove all doubt."

[edit on 12/8/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


So, from there are NO Russian's or Russian equipment in Georgia, to, thats not much.
Now we have established that Russians and their equipment ARE in Georgia,

As for the amount, please reread the news source.
"On Tuesday, an Associated Press reporter counted 135 Russian military vehicles - included tanks, armored personnel carriers and three pieces of artillery - driving through Georgia toward Kodori Gorge."

It says 135 vehicles including tanks and apc's!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"It's written by Western and Georgian journalists, whom as we all know haven't been the least impartial when it comes to reporting on this conflict. "
So you only read and believe "RUSSIAN" lies and proaganda???

"Hmm.... something about tasting one's own medicine?"
So, if it's ok for the S.O. to attack and it's OK for the Russian peacekeepers-can't say that without laughing-to do nothing to stop them, but it's wrong when Georgia takes matters into it's own hands as no one else will.

"Who killed 1,400 civilians?"
Well, this is unconfirmed numbers from Russian news-clearly not verified-so the number must be suspect at best.
Funny, when S.O. attack georgian civillians, it's ok, but when a responce comes back, thats bad and evil.

Did Georgia step over then line, yeah. They needed to have a much more limited "RESPONCE" to S.O. terrorist attacks.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


"Tactical Nukes are designed for the very same purpose. To greatly reduce the ability to coherently fight and wage war. Therefore they see the two as equal in terms of their objectives, but obviously different in the means in which they achieve them."

Wow, just WOW.

How can anybody think a convention weapon and a nuclear weapon are the same, OMFG!!!!!!!!!!

No, I am sorry, you can not convince me a nuclear weapon and a conventional weapon are the same.

At best, they are bombs used for the same function, destroy your emery, but it is like saying a motorcycle and a double-semi truck are the same.

"That's what the video implies, not me."

I am sorry; I have not had time to see the video.
Did you mean by the nature of the person talking in the video, they seemed to imply they were nuclear tipped?????







[edit on 8/12/2008 by mrmonsoon]

Here we go.
More people who have no clue about the world.
I guess the world needs more of them.
For votes and fuel use.
Im trying to cut back on them myself.
Maybe you should try like me?

Originally posted by Backwoods
Not exactly, the Russians looked at NATOs precision weapons as equal to tactical nukes in their eyes.

They did( news to me)? Would it surprise you to know that those precision weapons are not all that precise in the first place?

Their doctrine is that if NATO uses precision guided weapons on them they will use tactical nukes. Say 100kt or so

Show me where the CIA/DIA/NIA or anyone else claims this.

The two launchers are of that class. There is no 100% confirmed that the weapons have nukes on them.
But consider this the system is made for carrying three things.
A Chemical
B Biological
C Nuke
D Conventional

There is no 10% confirmed either.....

**Now starts the theory**
The have better artillery then this rocket there now.

But the lack the type of artillery that destroys targets at 120 without counter fire being much of a threat.

They only brought two. that we know of
ANYTHING this thing can carry in one other then a conventional warhead means that the NATO will react to it militarily as a nuke.

And what sort of reaction will that be when the Russians just deny it and blame the Georgians? Would it be in NATO's/EU's benefit to believe the Georgians?

To NATO there is no difference between any type of WMD.
All are responded to with nukes.

Lol.... Sure....

Lastly the Russians know NATO can see the launch from this system with the keyholes, and go ape # when they do it.

There isn't enough 'keyholes' ( lets rather say spy satellites ), as i recall, to do anything like that and i would not be surprised if the Russians have a good idea of when to launch and when not to.

Oh and for the record a nuke that small would not reach out much beyond a mile or two. The bombs used in Japan were just under a megaton. Or 10 times the size this weapons system can deliver.

You will have go back to the math and work out your numbers and magnitudes...

Originally posted by West Coast
As the retired general states,

Link please?

Russia knows they cannot possibly compete with America in conventional warfare.

In my opinion they can but since the Russians know what it takes to defeat modern armed forces at their peak they would rather avoid the attrition they experienced not all that long ago. The fact that they would be badly outnumbered speaks volumes as to why it always made sense for them to invest in heavily armed and armored forces as well as strategic arms sufficient to prevent mobilization of the larger populations of their then rivals.

It is because of this, that Russia has adopted this hard line response.

Hard line response with regard to what? When last did Russia go over a border without express permission or in reaction to attacks on them? How many peace keepers had to die in your opinion and how many of that possibly 2000 SO citizens had Russian citizenship? I mean how can one compare naked US national security state aggression with these very measured actions of Russia?

Stellar

[edit on 12-8-2008 by StellarX]