A sincere apology from a follower of Jesus Christ…really!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

There is nothing wrong with calling a fellow believer in our Lord Jesus Christ a "brother" or "sister" in Christ.

Of course there isn't! I don't think that I ever said that. What I did try to say is that:

I'm just not going to hand out titles of Biblical affection without deciding whether or not they are REALLY Brethren:

The Bible admonishes us to be careful about this. Not only to be CAREFUL, but that there is DANGER OF UNNECESSARY punishment (for the Saint) in doing so:

2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I have no desire to be a partaker in the evil deeds of someone who doesn't bring this doctrine.

The test for "brother" is the correct doctrine he MUST bring, FIRST! There is a clear warning in verse 11 to those who call every person a brother WITHOUT knowing the doctrines he brings...FIRST!

Before I can call someone a "brother" (or "sister") I want to hear the doctrine they bring. It is foolishness and harmful to call everyone a "brother" before you find out what they believe.

I don't call every man who says, "Praise God" a "brother", and neither should any Saint.

How should I respond to the man who says to me, "Praise MY God!"??? (Instead of "Praise God!")

What's the difference?

They both are saying the same thing...AREN'T THEY???

Don't you think it would be wise to find out exactly who (or WHAT) the God of this person IS, FIRST? BEFORE I call him "brother"???

There is an admonition against using "Biblically affectionate names" without some serious discussion, FIRST.

The passengers in the "televised police car chase" get the same treatment from the police upon arrest that the driver does. It CERTAINLY doesn't help your "case" that you called the driver "your best friend".

Don't get "in the car" until you know enough about the "driver's doctrine".

Don't we even teach our children not to get into cars with STRANGERS?



[edit on 16-8-2008 by PreTribGuy]

After writing what I did today...this afternoon...

The following article (about Todd Bentley) has come to my attention:

Here is a snippet (emphasis mine):

On behalf of the Fresh Fire leadership and the Board of Directors we wish to apologize to our friends and partners and to the larger body of Christ and to ask for your forgiveness. We are truly sorry for the pain many of you must feel and so regret that in the midst of great revival, the enemy has found a way into our camp.

From here:

northwestmusings.wordpress.com...

(It was apparently written (disclosed) today, though I was unaware of it before I started writing today.)

Here, again, we have (possible?) Saints apologizing to the WORLD (please note that the BOARD of DIRECTORS actually make a distinction in my emphasis above, distinguishing between the Saints and the NON-Saints) for Todd Bentley, or, rather the (reported) SIN of Todd Bentley.

There is no reason to apologize for Todd Bentley to the world, much less the Saints, for this. This "board of directors" is feeling sorry for him...and offer hope that he will be restored to his ministry...someday? (Note that the article SAYS, "for a SEASON..."!)

IF THE ACCUSATION IS TRUE, Todd Bentley needs to be PUBLICLY rebuked, not "refrain(ed) from all public ministry, 'FOR A SEASON...'"

Whether one acknowledges it or not...Todd Bentley STILL has a "public" ministry! (Oh, yes he DOES! His "response" to this is JUST AS PUBLIC as his "ministry". Jesus still had a very public ministry even after HE was accused...)

IF the former accusation in this link is TRUE, Todd Bentley is ALREADY disqualified from his "ministry". (1 Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach)

Again, Paul talked about this:

1 Cor 5:13 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

I suppose that some "got in the car with and let Todd Bentley DRIVE" and are now wondering whether or not it was a wise thing?

What does the Bible say about this?

1 Tim 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Apparently, the "board of directors" aren't interested in any "fear"...for that might cost them...AND it might interfere with their plans (care of this world) AND the deceitfulness of riches that Todd Bentley provides them...

Todd Bentley makes money!

Matt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

One is left to wonder how many (have got "in the car" with Todd and) have called Todd, "brother"?

Be CAREFUL who you call, "Brother".

I don't think that I've ever called Todd a "Brother". I don't subscribe to his "doctrine". It scares me. (But I DO say that the "spiritual gifts" are still active!)

Pretrib,

I haven't forgotten your post or our discussion. I want to give my response the time it deserves.

More to come, sorry.

PreTribGuy,

Hope things are settled down for you, your wife…and family…

Again, this is great news !!!!

The first boy!!!!

It will be much easier to parent him than the 3 girls, I promise you…………from 22 yrs of experience…
= = = == =
If you are ready, let’s continue the conversation, ok? I am going to be assertive here…and a bit directive, my brother.

What do you do with the following verses??????
BEFORE YOU ANSWER…

A BIT OF A COMMERCIAL…

…ATS SKEPTIC, AGNOSTIC, ATHEIST, AND ‘OTHER’?…

SLOW DOWN….AND OBSERVE…THE MILIEU OF THIS DISCOURSE…WE, CHRISTIANS, WILL BE MATURE, IN OUR CONVERSATION….EVEN IF WE DISAGREE, WE WILL LOVE ONE ANOTHER!

Verse 1
“In as much as possible, live at peace with all men…” Romans 12:18

This is the hard part…

The HARD part…

Working at peace…

The easy (basic, immature) position is to spouting truth…it is much more easy to say two and two is four…than to make things right…when you have done something wrong.

Does not ‘living in peace with all men’, include the component of ‘apologizing’ to those wronged?

It does say ‘all men’, which would include those that don’t believe, right?

“Therefore, leaving behind the elementary teachings about the Messiah, let us continue to be carried along to “maturity” not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works or faith toward God.”

Telling people to repent (and staying there) is IMMATURE….also merely having (stern/stalwart) faith is characterized as basic, youthful.

Passage 2
LUKE 6:35-38…/….35 "But love your enemies, (Non-Christians,) do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. (as we SHOULD!, right?)
36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom.

For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."
Whatever we measure out is what will be measured back to us.

If we want others to show mercy to us and forgive us -- we must do that ‘first!’

“enemies” =that equals, non Christians, right? No other option here!!

I can easily and pompously quote the truths of John 3:16, Romans 3:23 and many other verses…and say, ” I am a purest, didactic, verbal, plenary inspiration-scripture-kind-of-guy!”…that’s easy!

but living sacrificially as our LORD did…is much harder!!!

Much harder!!!! You would agree, sir?

Alright, let’s bring this home, ok?

Again, NO PRIDE here, just applying the Bible to real life…

To carry…your beliefs…to further applications in real life…? Here’s a few questions!

‘Would it be wrong for a Christian wife to apologize to a non-believing husband for a mistake she made?’

‘Would it be wrong for a believing employee to apologize to their unbelieving supervisor for a mistake at work?’

‘Would it be wrong for a believing brother to apologize to his unbelieving sister for slipping and cursing at her?’

‘Would it be wrong for a (Christian) Finance manager who happens to apologize to all his employees for a miscalculation on the profit sheet, once it is discovered?’

= = =

I can go on and on…you know, right?

Basically…I am troubled…that WE are…EVEN…having this conversation…
In public, for sure….let alone, privately!

But, for someone who knows the scripture as well as you do, you are defending (in my mind) such an abhorrent point of view?

From where does this teaching come?

AND, why…all the zeal?

And where does this scriptural ‘mis-interpretation’ come from?

I am trying to be, somewhat, understanding here…but this approach, while trying to be ‘orthodox’ is…in reality, HURTING the cause of Christ…

It is so contrary to the Spirit of the ONE I love…

…that it baffles me from ‘whence’ it comes???? (To the observer, sorry for the KJV)

PTG, I know you don’t want my perspective…and that you are sincere follower…but your take/theology IS NEGATIVE to the cause of Christ…

This…G-A-R-B…General Association of Baptists-ish perspective/approach (or similar-style) is, in reality, an ‘against-Christ’ teaching…sorry, for these HARSH words….but CORRECT words….

Please just give it some time…and you will see it, in this life….or will eventually, in time, acknowledge it, in the after-life…when He judges our work (bema seat.)

Granted PTG, you have probably, never met a believer, like me…and you will be offended at first…but please let life take its course, observe, and heed.

The harshness you display…is from a large sect, in American Christianity…but truly INEFFECTIVE…

Those that spout, the empty perspective, you seem to agree to, go to a 75-100 member church…don’t usually get new members…and are a part of a sub-culture, that gives Jesus…a bad name…I know this is difficult for you…but please think about what I have said…

Sure, I make mistakes and I am not perfect (‘practically’ only)…but you have cleverly ignored the scriptures I have given you…just go back and look at the discourse…I will make a point…and you will ignore the good stuff I have said and target, what you think is a weakness in my argument…yet the WHOLE COUNSEL of what I have said is still here…please don’t react IMMEDIATELY…think about this for a while, then respond, OK?

= = =

PTG, I will continue…in the face…of your rebuke…to go ahead and love you…and be patient…my hope is, we can come to agreement…here…in front of the world…

Again, if not…I will never disgrace you…NEVER…for you are a ‘brother’…I will never question that…and SO LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR RESPONSE, SIR!

John 13:34, 35 is still true…even if your theological grid denies it, pre-conceived as it may be…and it is still my (and HIS) anthem…the HARD part!

OT

PS: I respect two things about you…your tenacity and your knowledge of scripture…even if we don’t agree…

[edit on 19-8-2008 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


Oldthinker, I DO appreciate your time AND ATTENTION!!!.

AND, I thank you for your kind words of encouragement.

You said:

Verse 1
“In as much as possible, live at peace with all men…” Romans 12:18

That is not what the verse says in the KJV of the Bible, you left out (accidentally?) the middle of that verse:

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

There is a very sharp difference in the two translations. The former (quoted by you) lacks the middle of the latter (quoted by me) and your translation suffers because of this.

Perhaps Young's Literal is "common ground"?
If possible -- so far as in you -- with all men being in peace;

How about Darby?
if possible, as far as depends on you, living in peace with all men;

How about NIV?
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

NEW King James Version?
If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

This is the hard part…

The HARD part…

This is harder:
(the prior verse says, at the end)
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Working at peace…

Of COURSE! Blessed are the peaceMAKERS!

Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

The easy (basic, immature) position is to spouting truth…it is much more easy to say two and two is four…than to make things right…when you have done something wrong.

Does not ‘living in peace with all men’, include the component of ‘apologizing’ to those wronged?

It does say ‘all men’, which would include those that don’t believe, right?

Jesus spoke to this idea:

Matt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

I believe the above verse was the very first verse I quoted when answering you on 8-11-2008? The VERY first Bible verse from the very first reply?

Were/Are you or other's (even me!) on ATS/BTS (EVER?) in danger of being delivered to the judge? To be convicted of WHAT???

WHAT????

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

“Therefore, leaving behind the elementary teachings about the Messiah, let us continue to be carried along to “maturity” not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works or faith toward God.”

This is in Hebrews? Hebrews 6:1? Again, the Bible translation you are using is leaving out the "meat" (for ME, at least).

Here is Hebrews 6:1 in the KJV, then the Darby (which is considered a faithful translation), then the Young's Literal.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

(Darby)
Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on to what belongs to full growth, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God,

(YL)
Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,

Telling people to repent (and staying there) is IMMATURE...

I'm not aware that I've either intimated or made a suggestion like this, Oldthinker.
Have I done so? If so, please quote me so I can either repent or defend it?

Clearly, the end of the previous chapter in Hebrews (the 4 verses prior to Hebrews 6:1 that you quoted above) says some are:

Hebrews 5:11-14 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

….also merely having (stern/stalwart) faith is characterized as basic, youthful.

I'm not aware of a verse that says what you've said above. I would like to discuss this verse!

Passage 2
LUKE 6:35-38…/….35 "But love your enemies, (Non-Christians,) do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. (as we SHOULD!, right?)
36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom.

For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

Oldthinker? I want to confess something to you. I was reading through this (well known to me) passage and I loved it. It read like "truth" that was dripping wet with pure water! A timely spoken word of truth is like...well...

Prov. 15:23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

I considered quoting that passage (because of the TRUTH that is in it!) in different translations, as before, but whatever translation you are using works pretty good for me (for THAT passage)!

"Love your enemies!"

I believe God did JUST THAT by sending His Son, Jesus Christ, that...

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Now, as a quick aside, Oldthinker, I want you to pause. (Please?)

I wanted to continue...continue to talk about the Lord Jesus Christ...but I am needing to tell you something else...something to be very WARY ABOUT...CONCERNED ABOUT...WATCHFUL FOR...
Jude 3
(continued as I have time)

Thanks for the reply...looking forward to hearing the rest. I'll address the questions later, if that's ok?

OT

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I'm sorry if I am veering away from this conversation, but that verse interested me....does this mean, for example, if a Jehovah's Witness came knocking at your door, you shouldn't let him in, or even greet them? Or an obviously muslim person?

PTG,

Just a note of thanks for this discussion. You have a great ability, to bring home the Word of God to real life. I have been thinking of this for two weeks now...and look forward to the time, reviewing you responses applying it to life. It reminds me of my college days. God bless you.

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Thank you for the kind words, Oldthinker. I, also, have had this subject on my mind for the past several days and I have tended to "rush through my daily work" in order to spend some time responding.

May I be allowed, by you, on this thread to continue to "cut my posts off...sometimes abruptly", in order to keep the conversation going? My time is sporadic these days, and I don't want to "offload to you" a week's worth of writing and have you feel you need to respond immediately. That would be an unrighteous request of your time from me. It is like stealing.

And in return, if you accept this, feel free to begin to write as you will? We don't need to address every single item...in every post...maybe you (and I and others reading) would be benefited more by just addressing the "important points" as they come up?

For instance, another person, just before this, has asked a question on this thread. I suppose this individual took the time to read through our conversation and is "looking for an answer". I don't feel comfortable ignoring the question presented to the participants in this thread. This person deserves an answer. As I've said before, this thread (conversation about the BIBLE!) has an audience...and someone just raised their hand and asked a question.

There is a "higher morality" that must be obeyed:
"The husband and wife discussing difficulties in their marriage is RIGHTLY ('OK' by GOD) INTERRUPTED by the crying baby in the background. The conversation can wait...for the crying baby needs their attention right now.

Whether or not we "finally FINISH" the ENTIRE conversation is irrelevant, the real question is...are we talking?:

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

YES...SIR!

No hurry, take care of the HOME situation and love that bride...as you should...and take care of those kids...

NO HURRY!!!!

Absolutely, no hurry...

When you can..please address those questions, from observers...

And when you can get to our discussion...go there, but there is no hurry...

no one on their deathbed, says, "man, I wish I had spent more time on ATS!"

We can continue this, when you are ready...as long as you like...

OT

reply to post by babloyi

I'm sorry if I am veering away from this conversation, but that verse interested me....does this mean, for example, if a Jehovah's Witness came knocking at your door, you shouldn't let him in, or even greet them? Or an obviously muslim person?

May I please quote the relevant verses again?

2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Here is the same thing said in a different set of verses:

1 Tim 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

And again:

Psalm 101 I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing.
2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
4 A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.
5 Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
6 Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.
7 He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.
8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

reply to post by OldThinker


I'm working up to try to finally finish my post to you, Oldthinker.

I AM trying to work at it!

reply to post by OldThinker

Whatever we measure out is what will be measured back to us.

For some reason, I got "hung up" on this quote from you. I agree with it, but I'm not sure we entirely (and COMPLETELY) have defined "Who" is doing the "measuring back to us" AND "how it is happening" (or even "when"?)

I think it is a fundamental error to think that the (unbelieving) "world" will (knowingly, with this Scripture in mind) "measure back to us" what God will. I see no promise from God, in the original text, that the VERY people that you give TO are the VERY SAME people who will give BACK to you"

I just don't see that kind of promise in the Biblical text.

Let me quote it (from your quote of the text) again:
LUKE 6:35-38…/….35 "But love your enemies, (Non-Christians,) do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. (as we SHOULD!, right?)
36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38 "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom.

I don't deny that some (unbelievers) may respond (as God leads them) that way, but (typically) in my life, it comes from someone else and (it seems) to mostly come from the direction of those who "profess" Christian morals.

Perhaps this is one way that Gal 6:2 is fulfilled?
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Cor. 12:14-15 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

AND

1 Cor 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

If the foot gets stepped on, does not the whole body of Jesus Christ react in pain?
If the foot is praised, does not the whole body of Jesus Christ react with joy?

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham looked for fulfillment in the promise of God in his "fleshly way". He had sex with Hagar to "fulfill" God's promise, but this was incorrect. And Hagar's child is known in Scripture to be the example of errant promise "GETting":

Gal 4:23-26 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

"Whatever we measure out is what will be measured back to us. " IS a promise, but there is nothing in those verses that imply it comes back FROM the very person you are "giving to" (or judging).

reply to post by OldThinker


Emphasis mine:

Whatever we measure out is what will be measured back to us.

If we want others to show mercy to us and forgive us -- we must do that ‘first!’

...and this is why I sorta got "hung up" in the previous post.

The Lord's prayer asks God to:
Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

This is a plea to and for GOD to forgive us as we forgive others.

This idea is followed up IMMEDIATELY after the Lord's Prayer:
Matt 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

There is danger of error if a person reads Matt 6:14-15 THIS WAY:
Matt 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, THEY will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will THEY forgive your trespasses.

I suppose many a person, throughout history, has read Matt 6:14-15 in the (wrong) way I described above. They didn't understand the Word of God and were troubled when things got tough for them:

Matt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

In other words:
This guy's religion ain't working for him

“enemies” =that equals, non Christians, right? No other option here!!

I have no inspiration here to comment, but, may I be allowed to comment on this further if something comes to me?

I can easily and pompously quote the truths of John 3:16, Romans 3:23 and many other verses…and say, ” I am a purest, didactic, verbal, plenary inspiration-scripture-kind-of-guy!”…that’s easy!

Jesus said:
Matt 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

but living sacrificially as our LORD did…is much harder!!!

Matt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I "get" what you are saying, Oldthinker, but wouldn't it be fair to take a look at the "load we carry" and see whether or not it is God-ordained?

Jesus said His yoke was EASY!

(more as I have time...or feel inspired.)

reply to post by OldThinker

Again, NO PRIDE here, just applying the Bible to real life…

To carry…your beliefs…to further applications in real life…? Here’s a few questions!

Ok...

‘Would it be wrong for a Christian wife to apologize to a non-believing husband for a mistake she made?’

‘Would it be wrong for a believing employee to apologize to their unbelieving supervisor for a mistake at work?’

‘Would it be wrong for a believing brother to apologize to his unbelieving sister for slipping and cursing at her?’

‘Would it be wrong for a (Christian) Finance manager who happens to apologize to all his employees for a miscalculation on the profit sheet, once it is discovered?’

OF COURSE one should apologize for making a mistake! Being a Christian doesn't mean that one shouldn't apologize for mistakes. (the less the better, obviously!)

If I forget to bring home milk for my wife, I SHOULD apologize!

(The "cursing" example, though, needs a separate post. If you want me to, I'll expound on it? But for now I'll just quote):

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

...anyway:
Here is what I say: You cannot repent from a mistake

(Again, I have a lot to say on the above, but I'm just trying to move the conversation along.)

I can go on and on…you know, right?

Basically…I am troubled…that WE are…EVEN…having this conversation…
In public, for sure….let alone, privately!

But, for someone who knows the scripture as well as you do, you are defending (in my mind) such an abhorrent point of view?

If I have left the impression, with you, that I (or ANY Saint) should refrain from apologizing (when an apology is DUE), I was careless and not thoughtful (enough) in my writing:

I, (no humor intended), apologize to you, Oldthinker. It isn't right (or true) for me to waste YOUR time!

I'll TRY to be more clear in the future!

"accidently stepping on the foot of the gentleman next to you while exiting your movie theater aisle" is not the same thing as apologizing to the world (or at least members of ATS/BTS) for others' (Saints or otherwise named) presentation of the Gospel (in ANY WAY)...the Gospel is preached (whether in PRETENSE or in TRUTH!)

Recently, I've noted that a couple of poster's on BTS have actually made some statements that I (ME..."pretribguy") could copy and paste and post and THOSE words would be a fair paraphrase of the Bible!...

...and I don't think they even BELIEVE the Bible!

PLEASE read these Bible verses (carefully? please?)

Phil 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

reply to post by OldThinker

From where does this teaching come?

AND, why…all the zeal?

Gal 4:18 in several translations:

KJV:
But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.

Darby:
But it is right to be zealous at all times in what is right, and not only when I am present with you --

Young's Literal:
and it is good to be zealously regarded, in what is good, at all times, and not only in my being present with you;

Emphasis mine:

And where does this scriptural ‘mis-interpretation’ come from?

I am trying to be, somewhat, understanding here…but this approach, while trying to be ‘orthodox’ is…in reality, HURTING the cause of Christ…

I have stated above (in previous posts) two verses:

2 Cor 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

and

Phil 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

You cannot apologize for the TARES described by Jesus in Matthew 13, neither can you apologize for the LEAVEN in Luke 13!

Jesus PROPHESIED it would happen!

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I have stated above (in previous posts) two verses:

2 Cor 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

and

Phil 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

You cannot apologize for the TARES described by Jesus in Matthew 13, neither can you apologize for the LEAVEN in Luke 13!

Jesus PROPHESIED it would happen!

= = = = = = = =

PTG, Thanks for the multiple posts...let me do some thinking on them, especially these last few quoted lines

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by PreTribGuy

2 Cor 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Hey PTG,

Does this mean we can't do anything to change the TRUTH of Christ...in general...

?

or....


our influence TO skeptics (in the negative) can't happen/hurt the gospel?

OT



[edit on 6-12-2008 by OldThinker]

reply to post by OldThinker


Here is an excellent article talking about 2 Cor 13:8:

Triumph of the Truth

I don't really know how to (otherwise) answer your question.

Your opening post (that I remember), was aimed at apologizing to the "world" for the "sins of the Saints". As (I think) I said in an earlier post, I see no reason to do this. It isn't Scriptural and it (your opening post...on it's face) implies that I am to be apologized FOR...and I don't desire to be a part of your apology.

If I make a mistake, it is my mistake to bear...and apologize for. I cannot make a mistake and then say, "I'm sorry Old Thinker and I made this mistake". To do so would imply that you AGREE with my MISTAKE and that YOU were mistaken also. I do not agree with you that everyone on this website who calls themselves "Christians" are really Christians. I've read enough to know "who would kinda like me and who would certainly NOT like me".

A part of your tagline (signature) says the very proof verse for me:

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

There is no proof of fellowship of the Saints if only one side offers "love". This love must be reciprocated.

There is a "new" (another) type of Gospel being presented to the world right now that would have never been tolerated 100 years ago in Christianity and it goes something like this:

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love; as I have loved you, that ye also love.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love.

We all know Jesus "loved" and yet Jesus said:
John 6:65-66 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

So, here we have Jesus saying something that offends (pretty much) the whole crowd and they are GONE. The "new gospel" (which is no Gospel at all) says (ultimately) that Jesus was mistaken and John and (perhaps Peter) should go running after the crowd that was offended and "apologize" for Jesus' words and "to come back and fellowship"..."because we LOVE YOU!!!

YUCK!

(And for the "nay-sayers reading I note your objection quickly. I KNOW that Jesus said this and "we" didn't, but that doesn't change these verses:

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

AND:

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. )

I've been working on an analogy of this for several weeks and I'm pretty sure it isn't perfect, so I may need to amend it in the future.

"We know, from the Bible, what the definition of marriage is. We know a man and a woman are (certainly) married when they not only say the same things but they also love one another. They ALSO acknowledge one another as being their spouse.

We also know what a (fanatical) "fan" can be (as in a "celebrity" fan). This is someone who practically worships the ground that the celebrity walks upon and is familiar with every aspect and detail of that celebrity's life. They may "love" the celebrity. They may send wonderful and glowing letters and maybe even photographs to the celebrity in hopes of getting their attention. (Because, of course, they "LOVE" this celebrity.)

Well...just try walking up to that celebrity's door and try to get into that celebrity's HOUSE based upon your "devotion" to that celebrity."

Jesus said:
Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It doesn't matter whether you love Jesus (or others) enough, what matters is if they love YOU, also.

...one ANOTHER

Not everyone on this forum who says "Lord Lord" would like me.

We don't say "the same things":

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.






[edit on 7-12-2008 by PreTribGuy]

You see, from a Christian perspective…we see our job as a life preserver…one who MUST throw the life preserver…to the person who is drowning…

Don't you think thats a bit presumptuous (and arrogant) ?

____________________________________________________________

The act of bellringing is symbolic of all proselytizing religions. It implies the pointless interference with the quiet of other people. ~Ezra Pound

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons,
sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky,
people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive
stories, and you say that WE are the ones that need help?"
-- Mark Twain


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]