The pros and cons of Homeschooling

reply to post by AccessDenied

---

Good for you, sounds like they have all done well!

that's the easiest one to answer, the state should have no leverage at all. The state is fundamentally disfunctional and could care less about the well being of your child. Individual employed by the state may well care, but the state does not.

Bro' I understand that you may have a concern for the wellfare of the child of some fat ass trailer trash alcoholic, who pretends to be home schooling their kids so they can beat them upside the head if they are late with pizza and beer from the 7/11. However, any increase in the already way way way way excessive state interference and control in our lives is a bad bad move.

yes, we need to take care of each other, but communities will do that far more effectively than the state, as soon as they are empowered to do so.

reply to post by otherhalf

---

Thank you for the statistics!

There are some things about it I would question, though.

One being that academic performance is mainly memorizing facts. The students may be smarter in that sense, but that doesn't automatically mean that they have better critical thinking or life skills.

Another is that when it says "high self esteem," I've often seen that translate out into narsicism--the kids may, sometimes because of their better academic performance, sometimes because of an unintended consequence of the parents' reasons for homeschooling, develope an us vs. them mentality.

I question the cost statistic. It seemed like it only counted textbooks for homeschoolers, but not the electric, food, gas, ect. costs involved in maintaining the "schoolhouse."

And of course "well socialized" is a very subjective phrase.

I won't speak to the pros and cons of homeschooling because I've never been home schooled; however, I do want to share a related experience I had at work once.

I have an office job and I see clients all day - a lot of mothers. They often bring their children with them to the office and one day a woman came in with her three children. I could tell immediately that they were intelligent - you know a smart kid when you see them. At any rate, one of the boys picked up a CD that my Department mass produces for clients. It has information on the cover about suchandso resume's, employment, career etc. i.e. large words. Now this kid couldn't have been older than 6 but I'll be damned he if didn't read every word off of that cover but then he told his mother what they meant.

I looked at her and said "wow!" She smiled and said that she homeschools them.

Kinda give me a bit more hope.

What subjects do I teach - the question is a bit off the mark.

Look, I'm happy to be the radical on this thread.

I read the posts about home schoolers outperforming schoolers on percentile points - whoopee do!

I mean, really, what value does knowing how many carbon atoms in a benzine ring, other than to appear intellectual in a forum post or gain a percentile point.

What subjects do I teach:
how to spot the lady in the checkout that will give you the best slice of cake. how to play with your brother so you'll both have fun. how to drive the car above the speed limit when you need to get somewhere fast, without getting a ticket. how to spot when gold futures are undervalued and about to take off to the moon. how to spot when some authority figure is lying to you. how to be responsible for your own health and question the doctor's opinion. I don't really know bro, whatever it takes to get by in this world, looking after those you can, not treading on too many toes, being fair but strong, keeping a warm heart and open mind. Stay balanced, tell the truth, keep calm, communicate, trust your instincts and your perception. What else do we really need to know. If anyone needs information, the world is awash with it, and it's literally at our fingertips. Why push all this mostly untrue drivel into young minds against their will. What purpose does that possibly serve.

My daughter has problems with maths. She's been tested and has mathematical dyslexia Yet she is still made to feel less than others because she doesn't do her times tables as well as the rest of the class. I bought her a calculator. She's not allowed to use it at school but she can sure use it when she goes shopping! She didn't want to be bottom of the class so she's worked to not be, via extra lessons and some advanced learning techniques, but as far as I was concerned, bottom was just fine. She's bilingual and speaks better english than the english teacher so where she 'fails' at math, she kicks ass at languages.

How is that measured with publicly schooled kids?



When you say that you have "often seen that translate out into narsicism" are you saying that you have often seen this with homeschooled kids specifically?



The "schoolhouse" would have to have electricity, gas etc. even if the kids were not homeschooled. School lunches now cost more than what I can feed my children for at home. Even figuring in "extras" such as art supplies and field trips doesn't get you anywhere near the $5325 figure.



Yes, I agree. But, again, how would you measure that in a person who was not homeschooled? Socialization seems to be a big concern when people are discussing homeschooling, yet I'm not sure how it is decided that homeschoolers are not "well socialized". What is the ruler we go by?

reply to post by RogerT

---

The question of subjects is an appropriate one, as it is a gauge for those who want to focus on academics and not "life skills". Although, I will say that I believe the life skills is a real edge, and one that is not easily obtained from public education. BUT we are not comparing the two, so I will stay on topic.

Subjects:
* Mathematics (counting, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, logic, set theory, probability)
* Reading (comprehension, synthesis, analysis)
* Writing (creative writing, computer publishing skills, book binding)
* Languages (modern language of chioce, Latin, Koine or Attic Greek, Biblical/Modern Hebrew)
* Science (physics, chemistry, biology, anatomy, earth/space science)
* History (pick a book or a curriculum, then delve in depth)
* Computers and electronics (programming, repair, maintenance, circuit design/debug/fabrication)
* Home economics (cooking, cleaning, money management, home maintenance)
* "Shop" (working with dad in the garage)

Others available through external lessons or cooperative
* Dance
* Art (drawing, sculpture, crafts)
* Music (my kids do piano, viola)
* Sports (t-ball, swimming, track & field, soccer, firearms, archery)

And each of these is of course based on age level and interest.

reply to post by asmeone2

---

It is impossible to write about all the advatages of homeschooling unless the problems associated with group schooling are brought up. I will say that I have noticed that the highly educated ,rich , and snobby among homeschoolers are starting to turn on their poorer brethren. They are starting to call some homeschoolers trash. To me it looks like some people resent those who would use homeschooling to better the lot of their children. What a shame! The greatest gains in literacy among homeschoolers are among the ill educated and impoverished homeschoolers. Homeschooling is an equalizer.

This link is so informative.
www.hslda.org...

1. I would say that I have seen it at a higher rate with homeschooled kids, but by no means am I saying that it is exclusive to them.

2. Not saying that the public schools don't waste money, just that I think the statistic is skewed.

3. As I said well socialized is a subjective term. To generalize greatly I would say that the biggest thing I see lacking in homeschooler's social skills is that many of them seem to think of themselves as above the people who were not home-schooled, but as with the first question, antisocial can be a trait in publically schooled kids too.

Couldn't agree with you more. However, when debating whether or not homeschoolers need more regulation or teaching certificates so the kids don't pull down the rest of society, I find it easier to let the numbers speak.

When I was in college, 3/4 of the people in my Personal Finance class didn't know the proper way to balance their checkbooks. College students! They knew how to write the checks, though. I think there were about 2 of us who could understand the terms of a loan or even knew what amortization was. Talk about not being prepared for the "real world".

I think that this is a difficult argument to make, because those skills are difficult to gauge, i.e. a valid test must be designed that does not cater to any ethnic group, environment, or educational style. That is why test validity is established by groups like ETS. I don't have a stat to quote, but I would be very surprised if homeschool students don't out perform on the SAT, ACT (and as a follow-up, the GRE because they tend to do well in college).


On the flip-side, homeschool children are typically taught to not unrealistically gauge their performance because it is often tested in real-life situations, which builds confidence. In my experience, public school children often have an over-inflated sense of self because they are measured on a bell curve populated by underachieving students, many of whom put in minimal/no effort. Homeschool children are often taught with a more puritan-esque ideal, where *perfection* is the goal (opposed to good enough), so excellence is pursued and usually attained.

For example, my child's report would typically be computer-generated, and compared with professional publications -- opposed to comparisons with their peers' hand-scratched half-as*ed attempt.


The cost statistic is not taking into account the fact that families already pay into the educational system via property taxes, and the cost of homeschooling is on top of that. But it is cheaper in the sense that school teachers salary, teachers union, and administrative costs are not paid. So, it is sort of comparing apples to oranges. I would argue that homeschooling is very expensive, just as private school is.


That may be, but then why is that almost universally used as a reason not to homeschool. Studies that try to quantify it objectively have demonstrated that it is not demonstrable. I believe that the HSLDA stats at least try to address the issue.

This is really a pivotal issue and should be explored more in this thread. Because I believe we are all familiar with the "homeschool disease" (HSD) in which some young adult is almost entirely unequipped to meet the challenges of the real-world. I have seen this happen. In all fairness, there are public school children who graduate and are virtually illiterate. So, there are exceptions on both sides. I would say that HSD is a small fraction of the total population, maybe 1-3%. But when populations are compared, the bell curves are separated by a wide margin in terms of test scores, so we admit that as a group, the homeschool children are measurably at a higher level.

So, what can this be attributed to? I believe it is fair to say that you can't beat the student-to-teacher ratio, nor the parental involvement factor. These drag public schools down. But then what conclusion can be drawn? If homeschooling is good for the child and they thrive, then it makes sense. But if public schools are necessary, at least be very involved in their education.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by forthepeople]

reply to post by asmeone2

---

Interesting. Of the homeschoolers I know (and I happen to know a bunch from around the U.S. at least), I don't see them being anymore stuck-up or narcissistic than you would find in the general population. I mean, if they are that way, it's not due to homeschooling.

Do you think it could be more of a defensive mechanism? Homeschoolers do find themselves having to defend every aspect of their lives a lot. How many parents of publicly schooled kids have to answer "Do you think they get enough socialization"? Do parents of publicly schooled kids worry that if their kids go outside to exercise for a few minutes they will be turned into Child Welfare? (Just throwing out some examples.) When you homeschool you sometimes feel like you are defending your whole way of life. A casual conversation in the check-out line turns into an inquisition all of a sudden.

That may be for employment in the W-2 sense, but for example, a girl can help in a childcare or at the YMCA when she is younger, it just has hour limitations. Volunteer work is legal no matter what the age, and that does not make it any less work, as performance can be monitored, timecards may still be filled out or punched, and performance evaluations can still be done.

But all things being equal, a high school age student gets a job. The contrast is in using that as an educational opportunity, in which the students are expected to perform at a given level, and the metrics are used as part of their education. An example might be: if your son works part time doing data entry, then you use it as an opportunity for him to do typing lessons and gauge his progress of words-per-minute as a kind of grade. Thus, school is not divorced from work, play, or daily activities. I believe this is a PRO for homeschooling.



I believe it is an intrusion, although for the sake of argument not with algebra, that is fairly straightforward. But in the areas of civics, history, and literature -- these are areas where I do not want the government dictating what bs my children are spoon-fed. Is it a conspiracy? Yes, albeit an open conspiracy. A good example of what I mean is the way that the Puritans are demonized by teachers, because they read The Scarlett Letter. There are two sides to every story, and for the children to make up their own minds and develop critical thinking skills, it is important for them to hear both sides. This is definitely a big PRO for homeschooling (and incidentally a CON for public schools in my experience, yet off topic).




I would consider well adjusted as the ability to independently adjust, survive, succeed, and thrive in the world as an individual, an employee, and in starting a family (at least in this context).

I can attest to this, and often it is a defense mechanism. But to be fair, there is an undercurrent of elitism with many home-schoolers that their education is superior. The same could be said of private schools, but that is not a commonly used reason for private schools to be shut down, diminished, or have greater regulation.

I would not consider this is a CON that is inherent to homeschooling per se, but more of a problem with the parents that would equally manifest itself if they instead sent their kids to private schools (which a great many would/do because of their opposition to the public school system).

I think home schooling can rob a child of the more important lessons in life.

The child will spend years dealing with uncomfortable social situations. This will shape their ability to cope as an adult.

The child will deal with unfair teachers, who may or may not like them. I think this mirrors a lot of adult situations that we all have to deal with in our lives.

The curriculum may not fit our ideal way of teaching our children what WE feel is important.

I suppose if religious beliefs are that important to you,I'm sure you can find a schools that will accommodate them.

I believe the "schoolyard" lessons I learned were crucial in the development of the adult I have become.

I know that public school systems will not perfectly accommodate you in creating your perfect little super kid, but we all somehow turned out OK with being normally educated.

I say this is true of all parents. The only way to make sure children are educated is for the parent to do it themselves.



Scheduling is not so flexible. It is best to follow the public school calendar if a homeschooler does not wish to raise the hackels of authority figures.



This might be true if parents were trying to teach brain surgery ,but teaching core subjects one on one with the help of teaching aids which simplify everything give homeschoolers an advantage when it comes to teaching.




Sounds too anecdotal to me.



I am not sure why this is a good or positive thing teaching kids to respond to bells and waste time shuffling around hallways. This does not look like bussiness to me. To me ,it just looks sad and chaotic.



Well, there is no way around parents passing their own veiws onto their children unless you believe the state should also raise children. You have managed to attack two groups that loath each other normally. That is a good thing for those who support homeschooling.



Children can only be socialized by their parents. Groups do not teach kids how to interact. Villages do not raise children. Only parents raise children. So you did not get along well with those homeschoolers ,but they have problems. Okay, without knowing you or those homeschoolers ,I am in no position to judge them or you, but I have never had a bad experience with a product of homeschooling.



Public schools are held to high standards because of all the money they take ,and because of all the children entrusted in their care. Parents care more about their children than strangers do, and most of the people who do not love their children would not waste time educating them at home. Homeschoolers should be allowed to continue their ways because they have been successful without the intrusion of the state's dumb biddies.




[edit on 11-8-2008 by eradown]

To whom should they send those plans to the schools? I have relatives who are public school teachers. This would be a terrible idea. Public school personal would use this as an opportunity to close homeschooling down.Homeschooling is a clear alternative to public schools or expensive private schools.



I don't trust anyone connected to the state to fairly test any parents knowledge. Allow this and the state will want to test every parent.Heaven help us!





How magnimonious of you! Especially in veiw of the fact they are paying for those services ,but are barred from them because they are homeschoolers. Now ,if only you did not want to have homeschooling parents given the third degree by the government.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by eradown]

I am sure Stalin thought that the Gulag was a good way to teach lessons too. Your logic just doesn't follow. It is kind of like a Time magazine article I read where the journalist was lamenting that homeschool kids don't get to experience riding a bus to school. To this, my first response was, "I didn't ride a bus to school either until junior high" followed by, "if that is the best argument the author can come up with, then this is a pretty good reason to homeschool." It was really pathetic.

The fact is, you can just as easily be subject to uncomfortable social situations and jerks anywhere... so why choose to in the public schools?

Here is an alternative view: your kids will have to deal with crap their whole life through. Why not at least make their childhood fun and enjoyable?

Just replying to the general topic- OP, there are certainly pros and cons to homeschooling. Around here, I have several friends are homeschooled. It has seriously F-ed up most of them. My best friend, who I'll call Dave, has started to get panic attacks as a result, in most social situations. All of my friends that are homeschooled wish that their parents would let them go to normal school.

Btw, I go to a public school, and it really isn't that bad. I'm a waaaay above average student, and my needs are readily accomodated.

Final note: There is of course, another type of homeschooling, where you focus on a religious education. It seems that's what you always see on documentaries (Jesus Camp, and God's Christian Warriors come to mind). That sh_t really scares me. You should just let kids live their lives.

One more point- all of my home schooled friends are extremely narcissistic. They certainly do get a feeling that they are different from everyone else. They'll often tell me, "Hey, go get me a soda." I'm not their mom, so I tell them to piss off, but you get the idea.

I do believe, of course, that the government should have no right to tell parents whether or not to home school their children.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by MahNameABorat]