63 years ago, there was no bell, no siren, just hell.

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posted on Aug, 11 2008 @ 11:23 PM
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The fact there are people giving apologetic views to this so long after is scary....

Was it right? wrong?

What did it accomplish.
The end of WW2
The message we were not to be messed with.

What was wrong about it.
Loss of innocent life.

A of pool the entire population as innocent is naive. Over and over I read how so many innocent people were killed, but without mention that these adults were in support of their military, and cause. As mentioned in the OP they were cheering the shot down enemy... ignorant in they're own demise.

A huge step in the history of mankind none the less. History seems to show our steps up in life revolve around our ability to kill. Sorta like a backwards engineering thinking going on.

I notice 2 groups of people arguing right and wrong on the subject. Funny how divided people can be by nature of ignorance, and knowledge combined.

The argument is right in both directions. Lives were saved in the use of bombs, and lost as well. As would be the result if they were not. No clear winner can prevail from debate on that subject as both arguments will still end on the fact innocents die.

Most of the arguments coming from what sound to be apologies I will assume are from teenage kids who just don't know any better of what the world has been through in those times.

Arguing with people who choose to believe it was right is a dead end road.

Whether it was right or wrong shouldn't matter... The fact that so many countries can choose the route is frightening. Someday people will figure out imaginary lines are exactly that IMAGINARY.

Awesome post Agit8dChop flagged and starred.




posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 12:06 AM
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Thanks for the thread and for taking the time to upload and share your photos and experience during your trip.

I can appreciate the message in your writing - so much so that by the last photo, I found myself crying.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 12:57 AM
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Excellent thread, 'chop.

Something new and supremely terrifying was released that day in 1945. The genie, if you will, had been released; never to be put back. Tragic, yes; but then wars are full of tragedy. That's why they're something to avoid, if at all possible...

More people remember, if only psychologically, the effects and horror than you might think. It's been over sixty years and still only the two original bombs have been used as weapons of war. This is something to be grateful for.

My father has had the misfortune to have been on the Hiroshima site, during his stint in Japan during the Korean War. He has no great love for the Japanese people as a whole, due in part to things he witnessed in the Pacific Theatre during WWII, but he's told me a sort of sympathy for the people...several years later, he got to see the horrors of the Death Camps when he was in Europe...

Unfortunately, the leadership of the times along with the population, were war weary beyond anything we, who weren't there, can comprehend. They were tired, and the bombs promised a way of ending the war quickly and decisively. Had they known that they would help bring on a 50 year cold war, would they have made the same choice? Who knows? The dropping of the bombs did hasten the end of the war, of that I'm convinced.

An invasion of the HomeIslands would have been a blood bath of staggering proportions. Possibly millions would have died...in the bloody mathematics of war, hundreds of thousands of causulties is preferable, not comforting, to millions. That's a horrible equation, is it not? Yet true enough, for all its blood soaked horror.

'chop, great thread, and the replies as well.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by caballero
 


Balance is equal bad and equal good. Without bad there is no good and without good there is no bad. you cannot expect small arguments and the world to be full of goodness. There will be a small amount of goodness as well. Do not confund equallity with neutralness. And even then would you want a world with no good or bad at all?



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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My grandfather was part of the team that designed and built both bombs...and he NEVER talked about it...I didn't even know until after he was gone...He had radiation burns on his stomach from toting the Uranium around, but I had always thought it was from some childhood accident...not until after death from leukemia did my mom fill me in on the details she KNEW about, which wasn't very much...he didn't even tell them until the 50's what had gone on, and it was more like "I helped do that"...and that was about it...until he got older and told them s few snippets here and there...he was an elecrical engineer then and a BRILLIANT man with, unfortunately, ABSOLUTELY no business sense...lol...but that is for another discussion...



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by Agit8dChop
 


I wonder if the Japanese look at Americans, touring the devastation the same way that I felt while sitting in the Pearl Harbor museum with all the Japanese. I am not prejudiced and what happens in war, well, its war. Sitting there, watching the movie of Pearl Harbor in the museum, was really hard. It made me wonder what the Japanese were thinking, feeling. There was a deep down part of me that was angry.

I wonder if seeing the Americans, elicts that same feeling.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by llpoolej
 


That's a valid question, and it deserves an answer.

Part of me, even though I was born 22 years after those events at Pearl Harbour, feels anger; what does my fathers generation, who fought that war feel, even today? And the Japanese? I can't speak for the Japanese, or for most of my fathers generation, I can be forgiven I think, for attempting to read my fathers mind on the subject.

My father was 18 in 1941. He had grown to adulthood during the Great Depression on a farm in the Yakima Valley, his father was county sheriff for a goodly portion of the 30's and 40's.

He immediately volunteered, and joined the US Army Air Corp. After a very brief basic training, he was off to the Pacific Theatre. His war took him across the central Pacific, Guam, Saipan, and a couple of other spots where he had close encounters with the Japanese military, other young men just like him. I know he harbours deep seated animosity towards the Japanese people, though that has mellowed remarkably over the past few years.

Several years ago, my family went to Hawaii, my father for the first time since 1942. We went to the Arizona Memorial one fine gorgeous morning, and were reading the names on the memorial...my father stepped away and walked over to the railing and was gazing out across the water, yards and years away from us, my oldest sister, whom we were visiting asked him what he was seeing...

"I'm thinking the last time I was here, they were still pulling guys out of here, and other ships." You could hear the anger, 40 yrs. later, still there...

Needless to say, that put a damper on the rest of the trip to the Memorial...

The generation of Japanese who survived the war, must, at least to some degree or other, feel exactly like my father did, and does...some anger, some shame, and a certain sense that we learned absolutely nothing from it. The greatest generation, both sides, fought and died in the greatest conflict our world has ever known...and they must wonder, did those that followed us, learn nothing?

I don't know if I've answered your question or not; I think I have, but ultimately, you'll decide...



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 01:53 PM
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Not to beat a dead horse, but simply..,

Thank you Agit8dChop! Starred and Flagged.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by seagull
 


Both my grandfathers served in WWII. Both came home. My Great Uncle died on the beaches of Normandy. He was my grandmother's only brother and only living relative. I am not much of a history buff, but, my dad had a PHD in it.

I was just really shocked at my emotional reaction. Until sitting through the movie, watching the footage, I just had no idea.

It is a terrible shame people had to die from a nuclear weapon. I hate the thought of the suffering of innocents or really anyone. Though, I hate the thought of the war continuing too.

War in general is hell.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by llpoolej
reply to post by seagull
 


Both my grandfathers served in WWII. Both came home. My Great Uncle died on the beaches of Normandy. He was my grandmother's only brother and only living relative. I am not much of a history buff, but, my dad had a PHD in it.

I was just really shocked at my emotional reaction. Until sitting through the movie, watching the footage, I just had no idea.

It is a terrible shame people had to die from a nuclear weapon. I hate the thought of the suffering of innocents or really anyone. Though, I hate the thought of the war continuing too.

War in general is hell.


Innocents...I don't know why that just struck me so hard? Killing is wrong, but I just realized that while the Japanese struck us and did a horrible thing, it was a military strike on a military base. They were targeting a military installation...how did that justify dropping a bomb on the civilian population, on to the children and women, and young men and the elderly?

The slogans like "Let us never forget" & "Always remember" over these sins against humanity are utter garbage. Let us all forget and put it away for good and forget how to do these things FOREVER!!! "Forget" "Never Remember War" We don't learn cause we don't forget...Peace



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by ghofer

Still no comments on the articles though and that Japan was about to surrender? Or why was it that they had to nuke not just one, but two cities and the civilians instead of going after military targets? Well, keep on living in the dark I guess.


Oh I'm sorry, did you say it takes TWO to make them surrender not one? O yeah if I remember correctly, the cities are considered military targets, no different from firebombing cities that has people and material that feeds the war effort.

Heres something interesting...
news.yahoo.com...


TOKYO - Japanese World War II leader Hideki Tojo wanted to keep fighting even after U.S. atomic bombs destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, accusing surrender proponents of being "frightened," a newly released diary reveals.

Excerpts from the approximately 20 pages written by Tojo in the final days of the war and held by the National Archives of Japan were published for the first time in several newspapers Tuesday.

"The notes show Tojo kept his dyed-in-the-wool militarist mentality until the very end," said Kazufumi Takayama, the archives curator, who confirmed the accuracy of the published excerpts. "They are extremely valuable."

Tojo, executed in 1948 after being convicted of war crimes by the Allies, was prime minister during much of the war. The notes buttress other evidence that Tojo was fiercely opposed to surrender despite the hopelessness of Japan's war effort.

"We now have to see our country surrender to the enemy without demonstrating our power up to 120 percent," Tojo wrote on Aug. 13, 1945, just two days before Japan gave up. "We are now on a course for a humiliating peace, or rather a humiliating surrender."

Tojo also criticized his colleagues, accusing government leaders of "being scared of enemy threats and easily throwing their hands up." Surrender proponents were "frightened by 'the new type of bomb' and terrified by the Soviet Union's entry into the war," he wrote.

The stridency of the writings is remarkable considering they were penned just days after the U.S. atomic bombs incinerated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing some 200,000 people and posing the threat of the complete destruction of Japan. At the time, Japan had begun arming children, women and the elderly with bamboo spears, in addition to the aircraft and other forces it had marshaled, to defend the homeland against a ground invasion.


Had he been emperor, it would be more than just two atomic bombs. And perhaps many more American lives since the slow production of the first bombs. So we don't just abandon the usage of the ground forces.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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I cried there on the last one. That really was a good thread. I wish more people would realize what their saying when they say, "We should just Nuke them and be over with it." Its a powerful weapon, and it should never be used. Ever. I'm not sure who created it, but whoever it was, had to be in a wrongful peace of mind.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 05:24 PM
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reply to post by ConMi27
 


Think of Einstein who encouraged the U.S. to get the atomic bomb. Either it was us or the Germans. First one gets it...wins.



posted on Aug, 12 2008 @ 10:44 PM
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I've been to Hiroshima. It's quite the experience really. The museum is especially interesting (horrifying in certain areas, like a room simulation of the aftermath with realistic wax figures of people melting).

The city is, as said before, remarkably peace-loving. The dedication museum is not there in anger towards the American people, but feelings of love towards the entire world. It's truly life changing to see a people so ravaged by another people to turn it into an amazingly positive experience for the world as a whole. I'm not saying at all that it was a good thing to happen, but the fact that they turned not to hate and vengeance is inspirational at the very least.

Oh........side note, but Hiroshima is SPOTLESS. There is not a single piece of trash to be found ANYWHERE. It's almost as if they dust the place daily!



posted on Aug, 13 2008 @ 12:24 AM
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The Japanese deserved both bombs and should have taken a dozen more. They committed countless cases of genocide and rape in their attempt to conquer Asia. Millions of women and children were raped and slaughtered at the hands of the Japanese army. Their entire country was in a maniac suicidal trance and were willing to fight until the last man, woman, and child. Had they known about the power of the nuclear bomb prior to Hiroshima as well as how many the US had at the time, they would not have surrendered after the second bomb at Nagasaki. Only the stunning effect of a giant nuclear fireball wiping out a city in a second and the belief that it could happen to every square inch of the country gave way to a surrender.

Although we're still working hard to develop a new weapon to wipe entire continents, we'll have to stick w/ nukes for now. Until then, it's a race to see who can build the first effective shield against nukes in order to defeat the concept of MAD and assure a successful nuclear first strike. IMO, we'll see nuclear weapons used very shortly after the US Missile Defense system completes its design revisions and undergoes full production.



posted on Aug, 13 2008 @ 08:26 AM
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Just wanted to say thanks for the brilliant post, really well narrated and great images to follow the narration. Thankyou!

I traveled to Cambodia to see how things are since pol pots regime, if you're interested in me writing up a post similar to this one, U2u me.

And finally, thanks again!

[edit on 13-8-2008 by TheGreensGoblin]



posted on Aug, 13 2008 @ 11:12 AM
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OP, starred and flagged yesterday. No time to post then.

I found this to be a very moving, well done thread. Maybe the Mods will be nice enough to give you one million points or something.



posted on Aug, 13 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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Just a minor point,

When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, they did not announce they were coming to sink the US fleet and kill thousands of people.

They came, attacked and left.

Japan started the war with the US and the US ended the War with 2 atomic weapons.

Lets just always remember, there are two sides to every story,



posted on Aug, 13 2008 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Japan started the war with the US and the US ended the War with 2 atomic weapons.

Lets just always remember, there are two sides to every story,


Let's also remember that the US was aware that these attacks were going to happen in advance. On top of that, for several weeks before the atomic bombing, Japan had desperately been trying to issue a surrender, but the States would not listen.

Besides all of that, you're completely missing the point of this thread, which is that the Japanese people are not bitter about what America did, but hopeful and ready for a new world.

[edit on 8/13/2008 by iceofspades]



posted on Aug, 13 2008 @ 09:39 PM
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Thank you. A million times thank you. This is probably one of the best threads on ATS I have seen in a long while. Your experience and pictures made me cry.

I've been alive for 40 years on this earth. I was born during a tumultuos time, and I want to believe I will see peace before I leave it.

But I don't think I will.





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