63 years ago, there was no bell, no siren, just hell. , page 3

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reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 01:33 PM by Retseh

63 years ago, there was no bell, no siren, just hell.

Just the same as the attack on Pearl Harbor then.

We sit in our armchairs and grimace at the horror of the Japanese getting their just ends for a war that THEY started, the naivete of people today is breathtaking.

Like it or not, the Japanese were murdering, raping, and torturing their way across the South Pacific. they regarded all other races as inferior to themselves, they were classic genocidal racist maniacs.

Two nuclear bombs later and now they make nice cars for us. Talk about making the right decision.

But go right ahead, recoil at the horror of it all you bliss ninnies.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 01:47 PM by Perplexed

reply to post by ghofer

Yes, yes, yes... And Japan was an innocent by stander in their ultimate destruction. Its not rubbish. Japan would not surrender and their people paid the ultimate price for their stupidity.

You can say the numbers were inflated all you want but more than 100k would have died upon invasion and the Russians would own a piece of Japan right now. See the battle of Okinawa to see what would have happened on a large scale invasion of Japan.
en.wikipedia.org...

They got what they deserved and I am happy it was done. Better their entire nation than one more US sailor or Marine. Some here would rather of had us shed more American blood and even have lost the war as opposed to the Japs losing... Lets not forget who STARTED it and who FINISHED it shall we?..

Also do you think for one minute that if the shoe were on the other foot the Japs would not have dropped the bomb on New York or Washington?

I know, I know... Hate America first as usual...

[edit on 01/01/2008 by Perplexed]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 01:55 PM by LovelyDoom

I've been to Hiroshima as well. So sad, so sad.
I'm so glad I never met any Japanese people who held it against me personally for being American (Outwardly - who knows what they may have thought privately, but I hope I changed their stereotypes).
But I cried there, to think what my ancestors had done.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 02:03 PM by downtown436

reply to post by Agit8dChop

This thread is a great reminder of those 2 darkest of days.

I hope some of our authority figures remember the horror and never take us down that road again, and it's not just the U.S. I'm talking about.

Thanks for your time, and effort on this very important topic.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 02:19 PM by Perplexed

Originally posted by LovelyDoom
I've been to Hiroshima as well. So sad, so sad.
I'm so glad I never met any Japanese people who held it against me personally for being American (Outwardly - who knows what they may have thought privately, but I hope I changed their stereotypes).
But I cried there, to think what my ancestors had done.

Well, lets hope they feel the same way about the actions of their ancestors and what they did to bring such a wrath upon them. Their ancestors nullified the right of self determination of an entire race of people because of what they did at Perl Harbor. Lets hope they too cry for those entombed at Perl Harbor because of their cowardly sneak attack. I doubt many factor that into their thinking when discussing this topic. They started it and we finished it but we are the bad guys. I say hurray for the bad guys!

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 02:35 PM by TXMACHINEGUNDLR

Very good thread. I will always believe that the US did the right thing (saved at least 700000 US soldiers lives) Let us not forget that Japan started this. It is sad that it took 2 atomic bombs to end it. Very sad. Again, awsome read. Thanks.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 02:43 PM by ghofer

Originally posted by Perplexed
reply to post by ghofer

Yes, yes, yes... And Japan was an innocent by stander in their ultimate destruction. Its not rubbish. Japan would not surrender and their people paid the ultimate price for their stupidity.

History says otherwise. Read the articles by any chance? Didn't think so. They were actively trying to surrender before the attacks.

They got what they deserved and I am happy it was done. Better their entire nation than one more US sailor or Marine. Some here would rather of had us shed more American blood and even have lost the war as opposed to the Japs losing... Lets not forget who STARTED it and who FINISHED it shall we?..

As mentioned previously, the majority of U.S. military commanders were against using the bomb. As for your attitude, that's pretty cold. Those innocent civilans deserved to be nuked? I shake my head. It is precisely that kind of attitude that the government had and that made them decide to drop nuclear weapons. It is in fact the attitude of terrorism and I have absolutely no respect for you of people like you.

Also do you think for one minute that if the shoe were on the other foot the Japs would not have dropped the bomb on New York or Washington?

I suspect they would have as well. But that's really not the point is it? It was America's decision to nuke innocent civilans even though there were many alternatives to ending the war. I thought the U.S. prided itself about being a positive force in the world. You can rationalze all you want and ignore the facts or say the other side would have done the same but the fact is it was the Americans who dropped the bombs making it the worst terrorist attack in world history.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 02:47 PM by Wirral Bagpuss

We live in dangerous times. Whilst the world has Georgia on it's mind, it should remember what the horror of war is really all about and of course the horror of nuclear war. I think it should be mandatory that every leader of the world attend a world memorial day to remember the Atomic bombs going off and perhaps they would think again about the decisions they make. We all die, but I dont want to die in a nuclear war. Yet i am fearful we may be sliding ever closer to that. When i was a child growing up in the 1970s and particulary in the 1980s i had terrible nightmares about nuclear war. Now i am again waking up in the middle of the night hearing the emergency 3 minute warning in my dreams. When the Berlin Wall came down i cried. I thought perhaps this was the beginning of something better for all of us. Now i cry when i see it has all gone wrong.

Whrn will humanity grow up, before it is too late. We only have a 100 years to live on this planet, why can't people live in peace and make the most of their 100 year life span?. I despair when i look at the mindless violence today.

NO MORE WAR NO MORE NUKES. NO MORE FEAR

I WANT PEACE !!!! FOR ALL OF US.

[edit on 11/8/08 by Wirral Bagpuss]

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 02:48 PM by ghofer

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
Very good thread. I will always believe that the US did the right thing (saved at least 700000 US soldiers lives) Let us not forget that Japan started this. It is sad that it took 2 atomic bombs to end it. Very sad. Again, awsome read. Thanks.

I disagree. Read some articles on the history of what happened. Do you really think the nukes were necessary? Can you not imagine that maybe they could have nuked a military target instead as a demonstration? Do you realize Japan was crushed economically and militarily before they were nuked and seeking surrender? Only people in the U.S. still believe the myth that the bombs were necessary. Even the majority of the military commanders at the time did not think the nuclear weapons should be used. I think I'd agree with those in the know.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 03:25 PM by PlaneIP

I am the nephew of a Japaneese American...she met my uncle while he was stationed in Japan in the late 60's...She was from a small village outside of Hiromisha and was about 6 years old or so, but the memories are extreamly clear. She won't talk too much aboiut it even to this day, but when she does, she can still remember the people coming to her village from there...some with the skin falling off of their bodies from the fires and radiation...others with flash blindness from the initial explosion...still others missing body parts that were ambulatory. Alot of them were temporarily deaf due to the tremendous explosion and shock wave...others not so fortunate...she describes it in vivid detail...but never mentioning why...I think I know...so the horrors of that day should NEVER befall another...

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 03:43 PM by isa75

Thank you for those wonderful pics. I live in Hawaii so I have gone to pearl Harbor many times, but I hadnt really seen what had been done to Japan. When the Japanese tourist come to Pearl Harbor they cry, it really is a sad time. I wish that everyone of the world leaders had to look at what war does to a country before delcaring war. Especially using atomic bombs, I only hope that we learned our lesson.

Star and Flag for you!!!!!!!!

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 03:49 PM by PlaneIP

reply to post by ghofer

Ghofer;
You sound like a person who is passionate about this so let me let you in on some FACTS rather than what you percieve as facts...

1) Not only did dropping the bomb save alot of OUR boys lives, but also Japaneese lives as well...They were prepared to fight to the bitter end for "The Emperor"...women, children and men of all ages would've fought and died if an invasion were to occur on the japannese homelands. With their "BU#TO" code of conduct, it was fight or die...period.

2) A dog ALWAYS fights better in his back yard...meaning that if we had invaded the homeland, they would've had a HUGE advantage in terrain knowledge.

3) The Manhattan project was THE most classified secret of the war...I doubt VERY seriously if front line commanders even knew what was going on, let alone given yeh or ney votes on whether or not to use the bloody things...Possibly after the fact, but CERTAINLY not before.

4) Japan may have been beaten by material shortages, but they were FAR from totally defeated...they had HUGE stockpiles of weapons waiting for the invasion to happen...they knew it was coming...WE knew it was going to have to happen unless something BIG happened...and it did.

5) A little known fact...a small squadron of aircraft were waiting to commit Kamakazi attacts on the fleet assembled in Tokyo Bay during the peace treaty signings...but was thwarted by persons loyal to the emperor who stopped it before it would've began...

Was it a tragic event in human history...ABSOLUTELY...read my post before this one and find out...but was dropping the bomb a "Good Thing"??? I'd have to say a resounding yes...did the bombs kill alot of people through instant or lingering death...without a doubt...and for that, I am TRULY remorseful...but in the long run, it saved literally millions of lives by not having to duke it out through the mountians or off of the beaches...you have to remember one big thing VS todays warfare...there was NO SUCH THING as a precision guided munition...we would've had to bomb the living daylights out of them, resulting in millions of innocent women and children dying for what? For the U.S. to finally make it to Tokyo? Had we not dropped the bombs, the war would've gone on for at least another year, if not longer (More then likely).

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 03:54 PM by PlaneIP

reply to post by isa75

If any of you on here can ever make that trip, it's WELL worth it...I get VERY emotional at the Arizona memorial...and I've been over 20 times...to think of those guys there in that ship that were alive for over a week...but couldn't get saved...also, if you have access to Hickham AFB there in Honolulu, the Pacific Air Forces HQ building and others on the base still bear the scars from that day...the bulet holes are STILL there...they're painted over, but plainly visible...

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 03:58 PM by kawz1

Awesome thread, S + F!

Did the US make the right strategic decision in dropping the nukes? Perhaps. Did it bring the quickest "resolution" to the conflict w/ Japan? Definitely. Did the Japanese deserve some payback for Pearl Harbor? Of course.

However, none of this changes the fact that the vast majority of casualties in the bombings were civilian. Normal people, with families, jobs, bills, homes, dogs.... everyday people.

For those that look down upon the Americans that show sympathy for the Japanese people that were harmed in these attacks, you really need to understand that the majority of the people in ANY country are normal everyday people. You really think the entire population of Japan was gung-ho about the decisions their government/military made? It's no different than here in the US. It would be wrong and misinformed for foreigners to think that all Americans support Bush and the decisions made by the current administration. In fact, more people in the US disapprove of Bush and his antics. Why would Japan or Iraq or Iran or wherever be any different?

Whenever innocent lives are lost due to the decisions of an incredible minority (ie Government) it is a sad day.

Many props to the OP for his incredible photo's and awesome narration.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 04:07 PM by The_Alarmist2012

Wow, just wow.

I haven't read the thread, but want to reply.

I know the history, read about it, seen a movie about it, nothing compares to this.

I know I will never be able to travel there, and through the Author's posts, photos and excellent narration I feel like I have been there and seen these things myself.

All I can give you in return for the trip is a star and a flag.

Thanks so much for sharing this.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 04:15 PM by ghofer

I posted a few articles put together from multiple sources which is where I got my information. Why don't you go through those and see if you can refute them instead of claiming my facts are baseless. You're just repeating the old government line. Even Hitler claimed that the German bombing of Holland would "save lives" in the long run. It's just a way to rationalize the killing of civilians. I will NEVER agree that nuking two cities was a good thing.

Here's some quotes from the articles I posted links to. From this link:
Instant Genocide

One of the major issues to be considered was whether an invasion of Japan would cost substantially less lives than dropping the bomb. This is one of the mythical justifications to support the use of nuclear weapons because the President did not have any serious discussions with the military about the potential loss of lives and in addition, most military leaders rejected the use of the bombs. For example, Fleet Admiral William D. Leay, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, stated that, “The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan”.

Japan had been sending out peace feelers to a number of embassies including the ones in the Soviet Union, Portugal, and Germany. The German Ambassador to Tokyo sent a cable reporting that the Japanese would surrender even if the terms were hard. When the Potsdam Papers were published four years after the war, it became very clear that Truman was well aware of these peace feelers through intercepts of Japanese communications.

From this article:
Atomic bombing of Japan

Historical scholarship in recent decades has completely refuted the first three assertions, 1) that the bombs saved more lives than they took by eliminating the need for a US ground invasion of Japan, 2) that the bombs were dropped on military targets essential to the Japanese war machine, 3) that the bombs were dropped only after a process of careful deliberation by US leaders.

Most scholars who have studied the use of the atomic bombs agree that Truman and his advisers knew a mainland invasion of Japan to have been "an unlikely possibility" given Japan's dire military situation in late-July 1945 [2]. Even in the event of a US mainland invasion, the highest projected casualty estimates for US forces were not "over a million" like Stimson and Truman later claimed, but between 30,000 and 50,000 [3]. More importantly, prior to August 1945 Truman and his advisers had considered it possible that the war would end without either the atomic bombs or a mainland invasion by US forces [4].

Based largely on the assertions and omissions of the official narrative, and that narrative's broad acceptance by mainstream commentators, much of the US public continues to deem the use of the atomic bombs justified. As two recent scholars note, the belief "that the bomb, and the bomb alone, ended the war and saved countless American lives remains an article of faith" [31]. The propaganda has been remarkably successful; many US citizens continue to support not only the use of atomic bombs on Japan in 1945, but have also advocated the use of nuclear weaponry in recent conflicts as well (in 1991 almost half of the US public supported the use of atomic weapons against Iraq) [32].

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 04:50 PM by MacSen191

Star and Flagged... thank you for sharing your trip and photos with us.

About how they desrved it? BS. That's just like saying drop a nuclear warhead on Iowa or any other 50 states just because of what our government did. What about the people who have no control over their governement, do they deserve it? No. No one deserves death, sickness, suffering like that.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 04:52 PM by Perplexed

reply to post by ghofer

And your whole argument can be obliterated by referencing Okinawa. Look at the loses there and then compare that to an invasion of Japan. There would have been hundreds of thousands killed. Not one more Navy man or Marine was worth that. The bomb was the correct path to victory.

Complete destruction of those two cities saved countless American lives. You may disagree but the Americans of WWII didn't. They wanted their men home and the bomb did just that.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 05:19 PM by screamo

Like TheAlarmist_2012, i didn't read everyone else's posts, but i wanted to thanks the OP. It's always a pleasure reading a thread that rings silence to the core. Thank you, i truly and sincerely appreciate it. I'll be honest, it almost brought tears to my eyes just imagining the scene of chaos that no war is worth, that no life is worth such pain and suffering.

reply posted on 11-8-2008 @ 05:29 PM by FeedMeACat

Japan (and the rest of the world) is lucky we dropped those two bombs. If the atomic solution wasn't possible, there would have necessarily been a massive invasion of their country in order to stop the tyrannical villainy that empire presented to the entire Pacific. Many more lives would have been lost on both sides if the few thousand weren't sacrificed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The bombings are also a positive point in world history because they showed everyone just how destructive and powerful this particular weapon is. In the decades since, no one has been foolish enough to force any nation to use that much force again and Japan has joined the civilized world.