LOL, that's irony. Blairs government is meant to be Socialist, and now he's got into such a tightly made bed with right wingers like Bush and Aznar, he has to act disappointed when one of them rolls over!





[Edited on 15-3-2004 by kegs]

Blair puts on brave face over Spain vote

Ocelot... A Scottish web site and Channelnewsasia ?? is where you look for truth? I looked at BBC, Times, ABC News and Spainpost.com . All the news sources I have read attribute the victory to Spain's involvement in Iraq and the siding with the Americans, provoked the attack by the terrorists. But one of them does claim that people were angry over the way the government reacted. The government did stick doggedly to its claim it was ETA, but they also released the news that of tapes, and arrests of Muslims and Al Queda even sent a claim of responsibility. Some people were pro socialist, some were swayed by anti-war sentiment and no doubt some blamed the goverment for the bombings. The nail in Aznars coffin was the bombing, no matter what he did he would have lost.
I have a buddy who lives in Madrid, if he ever gets to a place where he can email me I'll ask him and post back. His insight would be telling. Of course, we don't know if he is still alive. Spain is a little backward, things we take for granted in the States are not as common over there.

Variable

[Edited on 15-3-2004 by Variable]

Originally posted by Flinx
Like Saphronia said, this is democracy, the will of the people.

That's the real problem with democracy. It assumes that the majority of the people are smart enough to know what's good for them.

To call them pansies because they reacted in a different way than the US is...well, indicative of small thinking to say the least.....

Well, I wouldn't say this simply because they reacted in a different way than the US at all. I say this because they reacted to a terrorist attack by capitulating and doing precisely what the attack was intended to cause them to do, rather than standing firm. When you blatantly give in to terrorist's whims en masse, I will call you a bunch of pansies every time. If someone walks up behind you and clocks you in the back of the head, what is your response--fight back, or just take it and do whatever they say? This has sent a very clear message to OBL and company--"Keep it up! It's working!". The Spaniards may as well start knitting their burqas and growing their beards out now, if this is the method of 'fighting terrorism' that they choose to pursue. This flaccid response to terrorism only encourages it all the more. Again I say, what a bunch of pansies.

Call me small-minded if you will, it bothers me not. I for one will by no means support idleness while these groups plan our collective demise, and I am not alone. Ride our coattails to freedom and yes, survival if you wish.

As for exactly who the perpetrators of this act were, I tend to lean towards Al-Qaeda with the assistance of local sympathetic groups. The bombing carries the multiple-simultaneous-detonation hallmark of A-Q, but according to what I've read, the explosives used were of a type locally produced. It is a most disturbing turn of events, if somewhat predictable.

As for who would've won the election otherwise, who knows? It is indeed true that most of the population did not support the Iraq war. However, the polls did indicate a strong lead before the attacks. I think the fumbling stance on the attacks by the Aznar admin did make a big contribution to their loss.

Variable: I hope your friend and his family etc. have survived these deplorable attacks. Despite my intense disapproval of the Spanish national reaction to this, my sympathies do lie with those victimized by this action. They are, after all, a part of the civilized world community targeted by all of this, and deserve no less. I look forward to hearing the Spanish 'man on the street's' view of all this, as I'm sure there are a lot of factors that simply don't make it into the media reports.

Originally posted by TheEXone
Regardless of what your political affiliation is, this day can be said to be the day terrorist influenced a democratic election through murder and fear.

If we are going to back down like this from now on, you can bet that everytime there is an election, terrorism will strike.
With our own election comming up in November God help us.

Liek i told you TheEXone: Terrorism towards the civilians does work. Change the minds of the poeple at home in the invading country to take back the military in the occupied country and show them that war harms them, not just the military.

Spain has now informed ETA that they must simply use bigger bombs, and quite calling in the warnings, then ETA can get what they want also.

Spain wouldn't even fight Hitler, so what can one expect? This is the European mindset, subjugate to force, and hope time, or the United States will save you, just like WWII.

The American way? Here's a story: In the early 1800's, an English nobleman was crossing Texas in his well-appointed carriage, looking for the ranch of Mr. Smith, his associate from England. The nobleman happened across a Texan tending his cattle. "Which way to the ranch of Mr. Smith?" inquired the gentleman.

"Sorry, don't know th' man." came the reply from the not so well dressed rancher. Deciding he was dealing with a ranch hand, the nobleman asked, "Where is your Master?"

"That sum-bitch ain't been born yet" came the reply.

Originally posted by Q

That's the real problem with democracy. It assumes that the majority of the people are smart enough to know what's good for them.

We give government power to make decisions on our behalf and the resources to do it with. If they know more than we do it is because we provide for that knowledge. They are beholden to us so even if we are stupid and whiny--they better listen or get tossed. Besides, any government that doesn't give the people a voice has to be brutal and brutal rule always leads to revolution. By nature human beings are thinkers which means we aren't easy to satisfy. To be effective, government has to provide the people a method to express their views. Humans will always buck against oppression even if it's in their own best interest.

I agree with Saphronia, I would add that the People normally get what they want from their politicians. In the end they want to get re-elected and if enough people are for it, it will happen. They can get away with something for the length of their term but, that's about it.

When you hear someone say "Sheeple," realize they are elitists. Elitists think they are better than most people and this is the same attitude that leads to Socialism and its right wing cousins. People are not generally stupid, they may be ignorant but as my Pop always used to say, "Ignorance can be fixed, Stupidity is forever."

Variable

Originally posted by Saphronia

Originally posted by Q

That's the real problem with democracy. It assumes that the majority of the people are smart enough to know what's good for them.

We give government power to make decisions on our behalf and the resources to do it with. If they know more than we do it is because we provide for that knowledge. They are beholden to us so even if we are stupid and whiny--they better listen or get tossed. Besides, any government that doesn't give the people a voice has to be brutal and brutal rule always leads to revolution. By nature human beings are thinkers which means we aren't easy to satisfy. To be effective, government has to provide the people a method to express their views. Humans will always buck against oppression even if it's in their own best interest.

Quite true, Saphronia. Touche.

Yeah Variable I agree with you too. I'm not one that buys into that americans=brainwashed idiots. Many folk here just feel powerless. It's going to take holding our government accountable to change the mentality. The Spainards get it...it's time we did the same. Politicans are our represenatives not our kings and queens. They work for us.

I believe the first step to taking back our government is giving the neo-conmen the boot. They're drunk on their own self-importance, and need to be taken down to preserve our way of life. And, Kerry can get it too if he doesn't play nice. They already turned the wheels and opened the flood gates to a one-world government. There is nothing they can do to stop it...we may as well join in and run the damn thing.

For those that are interested, in a previous post I mentioned my frined who lives in Madrid.. He has finally checked in, I threw some questions at him and heres his response.

First, politics are very different here from in the U.S. so any comparisons I made would be flawed. For simplicity's sake - the PP is like the Republicans (right of center) and probably can count on about 30% of the population voting for them no matter what they do and no matter who they put up as a candidate. The PSOE is like the Democrats (left of center) and can count on about 30% of the same kind of votes. 10% will vote for various other small parties like the communists, regional parties, and other wierd #. They will vote for their small party in much the same way as the PPers and PSOEers. So that means all of the elections ride on about 30% of the population. These independent or undecided voters can be counted on to vote with their emotions. This is what happened on Sunday. A bunch of people were already pissed off that the PP had sent troops to Iraq despite overwhelming public opposition, but they were willing to ignore it as long as the economy kept chugging along (Spain has enjoyed some of the most prosperous years in the EU recently). Then come the bombs. And then the PP confounds things by bungling the aftermath in the press (it kind of reminded me of EXXON´s handling of the Valdez affair in the days right after that disaster

My response was to give him my view of what I see from the US on the terrorists "winning," also specifically asked him about what a few have posted here saying that Aznar lost because of blaming ETA at first. His responce.

Valid points. Would the PP have won the election had there been no bombings? Without a doubt.

The bungling of the aftermath was their death knell. The foreign minister was saying it was almost surely ETA within 2 hours of the bombing. Now I don't know a lot about forensic science, but to say that after only 2 hours, you had better have some pretty damning evidence. More likely they had suspicions (or knew) that it was Al Qaeda and wanted to delay that info for 72 hours.

I'm still amazed that if ETA planted the bombs it was good for the PP and if Al Qaeda planted them it was bad. But that's the story.

My friend is an educated, bright guy, so I will take what he says for the truth. It looks as though Aznars people claiming it was ETA off the bat did indeed anger people and was most likely the cause for the swing vote siding with the Socialists.

Im sure interest of the subject has faded but, I did say I would post his thoughts; I believe the insight was valuable for all sides.

Variable

Originally posted by TheEXone
Regardless of what your political affiliation is, this day can be said to be the day terrorist influenced a democratic election through murder and fear.

No way. If they did, they influenced people to *not vote PSOE*, but the hard line anti-terrorist PP.

Originally posted by kricket
Spain has now informed ETA that they must simply use bigger bombs, and quite calling in the warnings, then ETA can get what they want also.

Imagine I would dare to say 'USA has now informed Al Qaeda the they must simply use nuclear bombs, and quite calling in the warning, so Bush can win again the election and Al Qaeda could get what they want also'. Unfair, don't you think? Stop hurting with that kind of rubbish.

Spain wouldn't even fight Hitler, so what can one expect? This is the European mindset, subjugate to force, and hope time, or the United States will save you, just like WWII.

For your information: Spain suffered the civil war between 1936 and 1939. Most of the country industry was leveled, most of their mens, women and childs, forever gone. But sure you may thing sticks and stones could have aided against Hitler. Oh! I see you saying 'No way, Franco and Hitler were partners'. Well, after WW2 USA was Franco's partner against communism as well. Millions lived under the rulement of a dictatorship because USA backed it. That is the American way as far as me concerns.