If Abortion were illegal.....

I am pro-life and believe that from the moment of conception you are a life that is a blessing, maybe not to the mama who doesn't want you but maybe to a family that has been waiting years for you. Or who knows how many people down the road that will come across this life and feel blessed to have known them. So I would have no problem voting to ban abortion.

I would not vote to ban firearms and though I don't own nor ever will own one, I think if I came across a bad situation and felt my life was threatened that it would probably be a moment where I would wish I had a gun.

I am also for the death-penalty. However, I would prefer that prison was alot tougher (take away the air conditioning, the tvs, the cots and cement floors, give them dirt to pee and lay on) and that those who have commited heinous crimes wouldn't be put to death but actually be made to live in the worst of situations and feel miserable for the remainder of their life.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by MsFab]

reply to post by AshleyD

I think it becomes apples and oranges

you're right - we are comparing apples and oranges they're both fruit.


Thats how i view it. They're difference instances of the same thing: A right. A freedom. Etc.

I guess when i make my opinion on what matters as far as the government is concerned with making laws, etc. I demand that my government leave emotion out of their decision.

For me, i'd say Ban neither.
Which is why i posted this thread, i believe they're the same thing.

I am against banning abortion, but part of me is for banning assault weapons and "unnecessary weapons" like an AK47.

But if they're the same thing, id' say ban neither, and everyone can live with the idea that they got what the wanted

Banning weapons and banning the right for a woman to get rid of an undeveloped fetus are not the ssame in the slightest....even if you did *ban* abortion,it would still happen through miscarriages,periods etc....so that arguments pretty flawed...abortion isnt even a freedom it happens everyday without woman even knowing...

reply to post by MsFab

I am also for the death-penalty. However, I would prefer that prison was alot tougher (take away the air conditioning, the tvs, the cots and cement floors, give them dirt to pee and lay on) and that those who have commited heinous crimes wouldn't be put to death but actually be made to live in the worst of situations and feel miserable for the remainder of their life.

well....if all prisons were that way - what about the people falsley imprisoned?

Should they have to suffer the consequences of actions of other people through their own lack of guilt?

reply to post by Lethil


"abortion" is a medical procedure.

A miscarriage is not an abortion, because a miscarriage happens naturally


Much like naturally going blind isnt the same as someone cutting your retina's out.


Whats the difference? Human intervention.

reply to post by Sonya610


If you dont want to be talked down to - then stop playing stupid games.


And not all people are typical. No doubt.

This is an argument about the arguments of typical people.

I do not understand why that evades you.

If both are the same (which is the argument i make)

then which would you do?

You can choose "neither" and explain why

but you chose to discuss something all together difference.

Talk about the thread, or go bother someone else.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


With all the modern technology there aren't as many 'falsely' imprisoned as there used to be, but it does still happen. However, I think it would be silly to pamper prisoners in case a handful shouldn't rightfully be there and may not deserve harsh punishment.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
If you dont want to be talked down to - then stop playing stupid games.

YOU mentioned weapons. I have NOT been playing games. I was polite and offered an easy out.

If you want to mix up FIREARMS with abortion then that is your choice.

If you want to avoid the headaches then think TWICE before posting.

Seriously you have irritated me. And while I was nice and tried to reduce hostilities you have continued.

YOU mentioned BOTH topics in your original post. If you can't stand the heat think twice before you post new threads!

Originally posted by Lethil
Banning weapons and banning the right for a woman to get rid of an undeveloped fetus are not the ssame in the slightest....even if you did *ban* abortion,it would still happen through miscarriages,periods etc....so that arguments pretty flawed...abortion isnt even a freedom it happens everyday without woman even knowing...

There is a major difference between choosing to end a baby's life and your body not being able to protect the baby! I suffered a miscarriage and on my medical records it is listed as a Spontaneous Abortion. I was actually very upset by the fact that it had the word abortion at all because so many link the word abortion to a procedure that you chose. But Spontaneous means that for some reason or another, your body just couldn't protect the baby and it was out of your hands and you really had no choice or say in the matter.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


Actually a miscarriage is also called a spontaneous abortion. It just typically doesn't get called that very often due to the negative associations involved. So really the only difference between a miscarriage and an abortion is one is induced by a doctor while the other happens with little or no outside influence.

To answer the original question, I personally do not understand anyone's need to have an abortion (except in extreme cases where the life of mother and child are in danger or when the child is the result of rape or incest) and would never be able to live with myself if I had one. However, I also believe that it is not my place to tell another woman what she can and cannot do and I take issue with anyone else trying to play the moral police. Morally I think it is wrong to have an abortion once the heart starts beating. That is when I consider it a person. But as I said, it's not my place to tell another person what they can and cannot do.

The same goes for AK47's. I don't understand why anyone feels the need to own one, and I never will own one, but it's not my place to tell them they can't. So my vote would be to ban neither. It's simply not my place to tell someone else what to do, and it isn't anyone else's place to tell me what to do.

Reply to Sonya: Ignored- go derail someone else.



reply to post by Jenna



I could not agree more

Which is the point i was trying to make (i guess it was unfair of me to not incldue my current dicussion in another thread about gun control)

Gun enthusiasts want to have AK47's. They dont have a reason for it - but they just want them. Regardless that they have no reason for hunting or recreation other than collectors items.

Women want to have the choice to remove a part of themselves like any limb in an abortion. I dont question their reason for abortion, thats between them and their baby. Its not killing a baby - its killing a fetus. Killing babies is illegal, and its called murder. This IS different.

So. I made the argument that both instances are the same thing when you boil it down to what both groups want.

I agree with you - why would anyone want an abortion? Why would anyone want an AK47? But both should have the right to have one.


Ban neither!


Indeed.


BUT!

Both should have restrcitions.

You cant buy a "do it yourself" acme abortion kit.
You shouldnt be able to go to wal-mart and buy an ak47


both should have restrictions

just my 2 cents

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 8/9/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

another question i found curious (though it hink it got over looked do to my quoting of the news story)



If Abortion were illegal.....

Then how much time should a woman serve who has it?



(it was at the top...kind of hard to see because of the [ ex news ] section

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
I agree with you - why would anyone want an abortion? Why would anyone want an AK47? But both should have the right to have one.

Yes and have you ever been pregnant? Found out you are 4 weeks along and it means carrying for another human possibly for your lifetime (even if you live a long time, they could for whatever reason be messed up, and it could be YOUR lifetime or they could become messed up and your grandchildren would be an issue).

It is easy huh? Have the baby. Adoption is an option. Well hon..would you want ME raising your offspring? Developing its mind and belief system? Would you?

Probably not. Men should have NO say in abortion until they come up with a way to transfer the fetus to the father. When the fetus is transfered to the father then they can carry it and it will all be good.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
another question i found curious (though it hink it got over looked do to my quoting of the news story)



If Abortion were illegal.....

Then how much time should a woman serve who has it?



(it was at the top...kind of hard to see because of the [ ex news ] section

If abortion were illegal I would also assume that the person who performed the abortion would be serving time as well (or whatever punishment was involved)

If the punishment was time served, I would think a short sentence (somewhere under 5 years) would sufice.

reply to post by Sonya610


I think men should absolutely have a say, isn't his DNA involved too? What if the man wanted the baby and would be a wonderful father and would have no problem raising the baby on his own if the mom didn't want to be involved. I know men that have lost a baby to an abortion that the mother chose to not tell the father she was having the procedure until after the fact and both of them felt great loss and would have made wonderful fathers and neither would have had a problem with raising the baby on their own.

I have noticed I never did answer your question.

Ashley was right. They aren't even close to being the same issue if the only choice was to "Ban" or "make legal"

The right to bare arms is and should be a fundamental right.

Both men and women have the "freedom" of choice there.

You owning a gun doesn't infringe on me at all. If you shoot me with a bazooka then their are laws to deal with you. If you stab me to death with your #2 pencil, the same laws would apply. I don't care if you own either.

My wife's (choke) fundamental right to an abortion DOES infringe on my fundamental right to have and raise a child. I'm not all down with that.

(of course it goes without saying....don't marry someone that would ever contemplate having an abortion....so this issue does not have anything to do with me personally)

Gun rights and Abortion rights are not apples and watermellons it is like you said "freedom of choice" vs. "no freedom of choice"

But I can't even begin to count how many Bills get shot down because they try and put two or more completely different issues into one Bill and then depending on your political propaganda machine they will report that politican X voted down a Bill that provides aid to retarded baby burn victims when actually politcian X voted down the free all the pedophiles portion of the Bill.

If you were to propose this Bill (Abortion Gun law Bill) and we had to vote Ban or legalize. I guess I would be politican X.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


You are a sentient being. Realize for some it is a MAJOR issue. It is not about "just do it".

Bringing another human into the world is a HUGE thing. Sheesh not to denigrate other species, bringing most life into the world is a huge thing.

Originally posted by MsFab
reply to post by Sonya610

 

I think men should absolutely have a say, isn't his DNA involved too? What if the man wanted the baby and would be a wonderful father and would have no problem raising the baby on his own if the mom didn't want to be involved. I know men that have lost a baby to an abortion that the mother chose to not tell the father she was having the procedure until after the fact and both of them felt great loss and would have made wonderful fathers and neither would have had a problem with raising the baby on their own.

men, husbands do have a "say" no law prohibits this. What you might have meant is that a man or husband should have some sort of "veto" power or something? But that is impossible. Someone has to have the last word on the abortion.....should it be the Court? hmmmm I think that might be a bit scary and sooooooooo far removed from what the Courts are designed to be.

So ultimately it has to be left to the woman.

But of course, like I said, the husband or man should have the legal right to notification at least. He should have the opportunity to talk to his wife...to make his plea....to inform her of how he is going to handle it...he should have the right to a speedy divorce without having to pay a dime of alimony....there should be some legal remedy for the father. He should be able to sue for .....lets say breach of contract. A Catholic should be able to get an anullment. punitive damages, loss of consortium. Depending on the situation some husbands might win in court and collect damages...maybe not. But it is just wrong to give women this sexist fundamental right that infringes on a husbands fundamental rights and not provide any remedy what so ever.

but sadly, the ultimate decision has to remain with the woman and no man has the right to usurp that.

Originally posted by Sonya610
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

You are a sentient being. Realize for some it is a MAJOR issue. It is not about "just do it".

Bringing another human into the world is a HUGE thing. Sheesh not to denigrate other species, bringing most life into the world is a huge thing.

.......huh? is this agreeing or disagreeing with anything I said. I'm not following.

reply to post by Res Ipsa

he should have the right to a speedy divorce without having to pay a dime of alimony....there should be some legal remedy for the father. He should be able to sue for .....lets say breach of contrac

This i would agree with.

Regardless if you consider a baby fetus a sentient being or not

it is made up 1/2 of the mans sperm

What about this:

In order to have an abortion - both man and woman have to agree. Like a divorce (gotta sign those papers!)

In the event that a woman who sleeps around too much wants to have an abortion - she has to pay for a paternity test to figure out who the father is, so he can sign it.

This allows equal rights applied to men and women

and discourages promiscuous sexual encounters on the grounds that abortion could no longer be used as a form of birth control.