If Abortion were illegal.....

reply to post by grover


All you can do is tell her to 'just do it'?
That's the problem!
When I was pregnant and I asked others what I should do, they just said, do what you want, but, you'll have to raise it on welfare and... blah, blah you're young, blah, blah.
They didn't have to live with it.
No counseling from ANYONE! Especially not the abortion clinic, they were too busy trying to get their money and get us out of there!
How many babies have you, personally, had?

I hate it when guys tell you, do what you want, it doesn't affect me!


[edit on 13-8-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Clearskies


I didn't tell her to have an abortion, in fact I didn't give her any advice at all... I pointed out that your answers are only your answers as it is with all lives.

[edit on 13-8-2008 by grover]

Uh, you do all realize that the 19yo college girl is just a scenario I invented to make my point(s), right? I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought it was. It says right in my signature that I'm 50 years old.

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Has anyone considered yet some of the things that really happen when you deny women the right to an abortion? First, they desperately try everything they can find or ever heard of to get rid of the baby, sometimes succeeding, and sometimes injuring or killing themselves in the process. Then, when all else fails, they commit suicide. Now the unborn child is just as dead as if it had been aborted, and the mother is dead, too.

My mother went through all of the above and then finally took an entire bottle of her grandmother's prescription sleeping pills and lay down to die. (Obviously she was found, taken to the hospital, and her stomach pumped, but it wasn't just a "cry for help;" she fully intended to die that day.)

My best friend from high school, trapped in an abusive marriage to an older man that had been arranged by her Pentecostal parents, killed herself and her unborn child rather than bring a baby into the hell she was in.

Now I expect that someone will say "Well, aren't you glad your mother couldn't get an abortion?" You would be wrong. I wish with all my heart that my mother could have gotten an abortion. Her life would have been much happier, and I would have been spared many years of misery and suffering as the result of being raised by a mother who hated me.

Originally posted by Heike
Uh, you do all realize that the 19yo college girl is just a scenario I invented to make my point(s), right? I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought it was. It says right in my signature that I'm 50 years old.

Yeah. I checked that and looked at your listed birthday before responding to make sure. If it was you I wouldn't have debated anything because of the emotions it could stir up. Unless you were talking to Clearskies, and you probably were.

[edit on 13-8-2008 by Johnmike]

U2U's are not to be posted in public view, unless you have permission from the author.

Please keep this discussion on topic also.

reply to post by Clearskies

I hate it when guys tell you, do what you want, it doesn't affect me!

I think thats the first time i've ever heard a woman say those words.

"Do what you want, its your choice as a free individual"

In an attempt to break the sociological stereotype that most men are overbearing, controlling, ass hole pigs of men.

But yeah - women HATE when men don't control every aspect of thier lives.

:shk:

Originally posted by Heike
Uh, you do all realize that the 19yo college girl is just a scenario I invented to make my point(s), right? I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought it was. It says right in my signature that I'm 50 years old.

----------

Has anyone considered yet some of the things that really happen when you deny women the right to an abortion? First, they desperately try everything they can find or ever heard of to get rid of the baby, sometimes succeeding, and sometimes injuring or killing themselves in the process. Then, when all else fails, they commit suicide. Now the unborn child is just as dead as if it had been aborted, and the mother is dead, too.

My mother went through all of the above and then finally took an entire bottle of her grandmother's prescription sleeping pills and lay down to die. (Obviously she was found, taken to the hospital, and her stomach pumped, but it wasn't just a "cry for help;" she fully intended to die that day.)

My best friend from high school, trapped in an abusive marriage to an older man that had been arranged by her Pentecostal parents, killed herself and her unborn child rather than bring a baby into the hell she was in.

Now I expect that someone will say "Well, aren't you glad your mother couldn't get an abortion?" You would be wrong. I wish with all my heart that my mother could have gotten an abortion. Her life would have been much happier, and I would have been spared many years of misery and suffering as the result of being raised by a mother who hated me.

This is actually exactly why I support abortion. If you think making abortion illegal will get rid of it people you are wrong and countless women will be at risk. The reason why such states as California allows teens to have them with out parental knowledge is because of cases, such as one that resulted in death, of young girls going to dangerous and desperate means to have them with out parental knowledge. Women will have abortions if they want to enough and I feel I am obligated to protect that already birthed persons safety over a fetus.

But it's like saying "because it isn't developed enough, it's not a human!" It doesn't make sense to me.

Which is why pro-lifers should be outside protesting against IVF clinics.

Johnmike

Humans, if you believe in the current law system (and in my book), have a sacred right to life.

No one has a right to life at the expense of someone else. Liberty > Life.

Forcing someone to gestate an unwanted fetus for nine months and then endure labor against their wills. . . sounds like reducing women to incubators with no care for their health or opinion on what happens with their bodies.

Johnmike

That's like euthanizing anyone for being unhappy, and it's completely preposterous.

Conversely, it's incongruous that a womans health and own opinion of what she happens to her own body is of no concern and that unborns have rights no person born has - the right usurp bodily resources against someones will.

Pro-lifers usually resort to the "responsibility argument" at this point. "oh she had sex/was raped so now she has a responsibility"

Johnmike

You don't murder because life is painful, and you don't destroy the future life of a developing human just because you don't feel like having a child, or because the child might be sad.

Abortion has never been murder at any point in U.S. history.

Johnmike

A sperm that hasn't united with an egg is no more a human than one of your skin cells.

We kill thousands and thousands of innocent little babies / humans in IVF clinics. Plus we deliberately create them knowing most of them will die.

Or is it alright because they're not in a woman. Location?

Johnmike

Or you're just dumb, and I don't think you're an idiot, so I'm going to rest on trolling. A miscarriage isn't anyone killing anyone, it's just a pregnancy failing. Give me a break, I'm not even going into this.

Andrew E. Wiggin is quite right. If abortion is murder and personhood begins at conception, federal law has no option to protect the unborn from negligent homicides and so forth.

Which is partly why pro-lifers who know this don't actually want to crimilize it as murder, they just want to criminilize it and not deal with treating women as murderers or face the consequences of the law reflecting the proclaimed value of the unborn.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by igor_ats]

IF we have free will... then we we must have the freedom to get it wrong as well as getting it right.

In the long run my (or anyone elses) answers are only the answers for their life and are not applicable to anyone elses.

It has been my experience that the self-righteous and sanctimonious; regardless of religion, are generally clueless.

Jesus was right in condemning them.

Very nicely put, Grover.

Very nicely put, indeed.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


Thank you.

I knew a woman in the 80's; a friend of my late wife and mine, who was rather sloppy with her birth control and had repeated abortions... I felt and feel that to use abortion that way as birth control after the fact was wrong... but I also understood that it was her choice to make and none of my damned business.

When I look at the whole issue two things stand out so clearly as to make all other arguments about it moot...

The first is making abortion illegal will not stop abortions, it will just make them more dangerous and drive the whole thing underground like it was before Roe vs Wade.

The second, being born unwanted and unloved is a far crueler fate than being aborted.

[edit on 14-8-2008 by grover]

So if spermocide and eggocide (heh..)

are not considered the same thing as aborting a fetus (in terms of "murder")

you make the argument that life begins at conception.

Conception is the union of sperm and egg

over the course of ~9 months, that sperm + egg are going through a cycle.

When you mix a cake - you dont drop 2 eggs into the batter mix and presto you have a cake.

It takes time. It takes an "oven" and it takes preperation.

Cells split, divide, conquer, grow, manipulate, create, etc.

So at what point is this "gelatinous goo" considered to be human?

A human breaths, eats, rests, thinks, has emotions, is self-aware, has a personal identity. And most of all - a human can support its self. Legally speaking - human beings who cannot support themselves, have no say over their lives.

A rich elderly woman who can be proven to be insane, can have her daughter move in and strip her of her right to spend her money the way she wants, because she's "not aware" of what she's doing.

So the courts put the money in the hands of her daughter - a sense of "legal guardian" takes a reverse role in this instance.

I know that its different from abortion as a practice, but as a principal its the same thing.


A fetus is not self-aware. Can you remember being in the womb?
A fetus' sex takes ~ 20 weeks to be determined.

So if life begins, as we legally call it, at conception - then please explain to me how a "human being" can have no "sex"



You can argue the religious standpoint until your blue in the fact. The fact of the matter is law cannot determine its self based on religion.

There are certain aspects of wrong doing found in laws of religion that are proved morally inept and laws are erected accordingly.

Murder for example: But i can prove to you that the person being murdered is a human being. Science can prove it. I can also prove to you that the person meets the qualifications for being murdered.



[edit on 8/14/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]