nice guys finish last

reply to post by Herman

soooo, Herman, are you married? lol

reply to post by Herman


I do not believe true love (in the romantic sense) exists amongst the masses, at least anymore. The average person is too bogged down with insecurities, false pride and vengeance to love another human, much less themselves. I'd guess less than 1% of married persons, or daters actually love each other. Most are in it out of convenience, or because they lack confidence, or because their significant other was the only person they could find at the time, or for financial refuge, or a host of other reasons. If I could fly you into the night and tempt each one of the worlds inhabitants (individually)we could surely find the kryptonite for nearly all of them. Also I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of sex in a relationship. It can be the biggest form of communication you have.



[edit on 18-8-2008 by sexysadie]

ok playa lets see these two chicks. anyone can pick up on 2 ugly chicks, even 2 average ones. thats no accomplishment and thats no reason to be going around giving people advice.

Wow...so you can only give advice if you find some women to date who are hot?

-shakes head-

the whole nice guy thing has two big problems

As mentioned before...

1. Alot of them lack a serious amount of confidence. Alot of women I have met don't like clingy and whiny.

2. Alot of 'nice guys' usually aren't that nice. I've come to find that when a person, child OR adult, has to try and prove he is something, he really isn't that trait he is describing. I am of course not saying this about the OP or anyone here but go look around. the people who need to prove it are usually fakes. The guy who says he is like Mr Ladies Man...he's usually a joke. (PS I didn't mean whoever has Ladies Man of BTS in their sig)

Just be confident and relaxed and finally...tell those people you meet who have this issue to relax and quit looking so hard. Forcing it nevers helps.

-Kyo

Originally posted by sexysadie
reply to post by Herman

 

I do not believe true love (in the romantic sense) exists amongst the masses, at least anymore. The average person is too bogged down with insecurities, false pride and vengeance to love another human, much less themselves. I'd guess less than 1% of married persons, or daters actually love each other. Most are in it out of convenience, or because they lack confidence, or because their significant other was the only person they could find at the time, or for financial refuge, or a host of other reasons. If I could fly you into the night and tempt each one of the worlds inhabitants (individually)we could surely find the kryptonite for nearly all of them. Also I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of sex in a relationship. It can be the biggest form of communication you have.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by sexysadie]

I agree. I find a lot of people are together only for the reasons you mentioned, sadly enough even my own parents I fear. After my last breakup, I've had numerous people tell me "You just need to find someone, man! Quit being so picky!" No. I will not quit being so picky. Yeah, sometimes I feel alone, but I would rather be alone than be with somebody just for the sake of having somebody. This is something that really shouldn't place me in the minority, but sadly it does. I think that urge to always "have somebody" and the motivation to settle for less is the problem behind most relationships going wrong.

I disagree about the sex. Yes, it's definitely important, but I think it comes well after love. Sex can bring two people a lot closer, but I think open and honest communications, as well as other things, are more important.

KYO,

You do have a point that there are a lot of "nice guys" that only do it because they lack confidence, but it's certainly not the case for me and other guys like me that I know. I think a lot of people judge each other too quicky.

Well said Herman

I will gladly assure you that I did notmean you or anyone in specific. IF however it did come of as attacking you please accept my sincere apology

-Kyo

reply to post by Herman


Judging each other is what we, as humans, do. It's impulsive. Think about it. Everywhere you go in public, you're judging people. Driving down the road, you see a teenager in a fast car with loud music playing, would you not be making some type of assumption about his personality? Do we not paint pictures in our heads about people we know nothing about? I think we do. Based on what though?

Appearances and Body Language!

Two things: Most people make up their mind about who you are before you say one word to them. The other, non-verbal communication accounts for 90% of conversational interactions.

Honestly, understanding body language can help you tremendously in your workplace and personal life.

reply to post by KyoZero


Ladies Man here. ......

But no, I agree with what you're saying here, only, I'm a nice guy with out nice guy characteristics. Make sense? I'm not clingy or whiny, insecure or desperate, boring or predictable. I don't buy a girl's time by buying her a drink. No superficial niceness here. More like cocky, funny. I show attraction only after a girl does(body language)(push pull). The only superficial thing would be indifference.

Just being myself, joking around, having a good time and treating a girl I've just met like I've known her forever. No awkwardness, no 20 questions.


To the OP, 1) Most "nice guys" probably do like nice girls, they just can't get/keep "nice" hot girls.

2) They offer women a guy that will never cheat and will always be there. Of course, they also offer.......BORING and Annoying!

3) Because they think that girls really and truly want a "nice guy". They think that the problem is that the right "nice girl" just hasn't come along yet. They constantly get put in the "friends" zone with girls and wonder why, but never quite realize it's their "niceness" that does it......

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by Herman

 

Judging each other is what we, as humans, do. It's impulsive. Think about it. Everywhere you go in public, you're judging people. Driving down the road, you see a teenager in a fast car with loud music playing, would you not be making some type of assumption about his personality? Do we not paint pictures in our heads about people we know nothing about? I think we do. Based on what though?

Appearances and Body Language!

Two things: Most people make up their mind about who you are before you say one word to them. The other, non-verbal communication accounts for 90% of conversational interactions.

Honestly, understanding body language can help you tremendously in your workplace and personal life.

Yes, we do all judge impulsively. It makes sense from a nature standpoint, but what separates us from animals and our primitive ancestors is the ability to overcome those judgments based on evidence to the contrary. Yes, people do generally make up their mind about you before you even speak to them, but that's only from a shallow, distant perspective and not as somebody who actually knows you. Haven't you ever thought, after getting to really know somebody, "Man, I was totally wrong about him"? If you give someone a shot instead of operating based off of your initial judgments, you'd be amazed at the kind of friends you can make. Or girlfriends.

Originally posted by KyoZero
Well said Herman

I will gladly assure you that I did notmean you or anyone in specific. IF however it did come of as attacking you please accept my sincere apology

-Kyo

No offense taken. I didn't think you were referring to me.

reply to post by Herman


That's true, but if you gave everyone a chance, you wouldn't have enough time in the day to do anything but get to know some people. You wouldn't even have time to meet knew people. So, the process has evolved to the point where these pre-conceived notions make decisions about people to weed out the unwanted ones.

You probably have these same thoughts on vehicles. Think about if you were going to buy a car. If you test drove every car at every dealership you might find out that you like a car that you originally looked down on.(Dodge Sucks) But who the hell has time to test drive all those big chunks of metal? So what do you do? You have a notion, or a judgment, about certain cars that will ultimately hasten your experience. Those notions are based on past personal experience and word of mouth from other people who have tried those cars. See where I'm going here?

-Dev

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by Herman

 

That's true, but if you gave everyone a chance, you wouldn't have enough time in the day to do anything but get to know some people. You wouldn't even have time to meet knew people. So, the process has evolved to the point where these pre-conceived notions make decisions about people to weed out the unwanted ones.

You probably have these same thoughts on vehicles. Think about if you were going to buy a car. If you test drove every car at every dealership you might find out that you like a car that you originally looked down on.(Dodge Sucks) But who the hell has time to test drive all those big chunks of metal? So what do you do? You have a notion, or a judgment, about certain cars that will ultimately hasten your experience. Those notions are based on past personal experience and word of mouth from other people who have tried those cars. See where I'm going here?

-Dev

I do see where you're going, but fortunately people don't operate like cars. There's a lot more to people than there is to cars, and all people of the same "type" aren't necessarily the same at all. Yes, there are certain people that you can weed out fairly quickly. You can't go around meeting every person you see, but should a situation arise where you're talking to somebody and you have a little time, I find it's best not to weed them out right away.

See, I think we're looking at this from different viewpoints. I guess I don't often find myself in situations where there are large groups of people that I have to weed out. I'm not walking around attempting to meet everybody that I see, but should I wind up meeting someone new, I always give them a shot before I decide whether or not they're worth my time. I suppose if you're at a party or a club or something like that where you need to be quick, the way you look at this does make good sense, but I'm not thinking about it from a "trying to pick up chicks" standpoint, you know what I'm saying? I'm talking about life in general. Maybe somebody at work or school that you see often enough to start talking to. In other words, I'm not car shopping. I'm not trying to quickly find the best out of a large group of people. I suppose it's also my own personal experience that's made me look at it this way. I remember at the place I worked, my boss hired a new girl. I was single, and I'd heard she was my age. When she walked in, I remember thinking "Damn it! Why couldn't you have hired somebody hot?" After a few times working together, we wound up hitting it off and becoming really good friends. I still had no interest in her. Four months later, I fell for her. This girl that I initially rejected based on superficial things became the only girl I've ever been in love with, and subsequently broke my heart. I went from being angry that this new girl at my work wasn't my type, to being so hurt by her that almost four months later I'm still not completely over it. It's pretty amazing to me, and it helped me a lot in learning not to weed people out too quickly.

reply to post by Herman


I never said it was right, I just said that's how it is.

From your perspective, I agree with you. I don't judge people like that right away, usually. I'm just a people person and I give everyone a chance. I like to see if someone can impress me through conversation.

But, from the perspective I was talking about, imagine a woman who gets hit on by men multiple times a day. A woman who has been with many guys and has a generall idea how certain guys act and look. That is the type of person that I was talking about. Honestly. So, the reason I brought this whole idea up is because it is those "nice guys" that display the body language and general look that experienced women, or inexperienced for that matter, can sniff out like a blood hound. They associate that look with a certain type of guy and don't even give him a chance.

Like I've said before, girls say they like nice guys but at the end of the day, or month, nice guys are predictable and flat out boring. Everyone like's a challenge. Whats the fun in playing a video game where you can beat on difficult everytime, in record time. It's not, thats when it's time for a new game.

Guys put women on a pedastool and treat them like queens. Don't get me wrong, I love women. I really do..... I don't treat them like sh!t and I don't lie to them, but I don't worship them either. Actually, I'm usually too honest. No deceit here!

There I went again. Rambling on...

-Dev

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd


Like I've said before, girls say they like nice guys but at the end of the day, or month, nice guys are predictable and flat out boring. Everyone like's a challenge. Whats the fun in playing a video game where you can beat on difficult everytime, in record time. It's not, thats when it's time for a new game.

-Dev

You have a point, but now I'd have to go back to my original point. Girls that judge the "nice guys" too quickly that way, even if they are experienced, are missing out a whole lot. It's very shallow, in my opinion. I'm a "nice guy," but I have a lot to offer. I just dont' flaunt it. A girl needs to get to know me before she gets to be a part of that. I understand your perspective if all a woman wants to do is hookup or have a little fun, but to me relationships aren't a game. And frankly, I have no interest in a woman who treats relationships like they're a game or a conquest or something like that. I suppose that's the reason I'll never wind up with a woman like that, and vice versa. From what I've seen, it's usually those girls that wind up alone and bitter in their later years. I'm not wishing that on them, of course, but it tends to be the result of the nature of their decisions. Sure, I'm getting less action right now in my early twenties, but action isn't my aim right now. Someday I'll find a girl that will last, and maybe one that hasn't been around the block a million times already. A girl with a little depth to her personality. That's what I'm hoping for anyway.

Originally posted by Herman

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd


Like I've said before, girls say they like nice guys but at the end of the day, or month, nice guys are predictable and flat out boring. Everyone like's a challenge. Whats the fun in playing a video game where you can beat on difficult everytime, in record time. It's not, thats when it's time for a new game.

-Dev

You have a point, but now I'd have to go back to my original point. Girls that judge the "nice guys" too quickly that way, even if they are experienced, are missing out a whole lot. It's very shallow, in my opinion. I'm a "nice guy," but I have a lot to offer. I just dont' flaunt it. A girl needs to get to know me before she gets to be a part of that. I understand your perspective if all a woman wants to do is hookup or have a little fun, but to me relationships aren't a game. And frankly, I have no interest in a woman who treats relationships like they're a game or a conquest or something like that. I suppose that's the reason I'll never wind up with a woman like that, and vice versa. From what I've seen, it's usually those girls that wind up alone and bitter in their later years. I'm not wishing that on them, of course, but it tends to be the result of the nature of their decisions. Sure, I'm getting less action right now in my early twenties, but action isn't my aim right now. Someday I'll find a girl that will last, and maybe one that hasn't been around the block a million times already. A girl with a little depth to her personality. That's what I'm hoping for anyway.

reply to post by Herman


Good points, but who's to say that girl with a little depth to her personality isn't one of these girls who makes judgments? It's not really shallow when you consider what women have to go through on a daily basis. It would be shallow if she had the time to get to know you and dismissed you anyway.

I'm not talking about it being a game, it's everywhere. It's a part of our daily lives. We, as guys, do it too. You can't help but make an assumption about somebody based on their body language. I'm not saying that you have to be very physically attractive guy to lose the "nice guy" label and get girls to notice you or give you a chance. How do you think relationships start? You have to meet a girl first.

Look, your obviously taking my analogous statements and interpreting them as literal ones. I don't literally mean this is a game.

You don't have to flaunt it to get girls to notice you or give you a chance. Haha. I don't really know what your thinking is involved with body language and perception. Perception. That's the word that has alluded me during this conversation. :bnghd:

If you give a woman a chance to know you, then you can ruin it with your personality instead of your perception. Once you get noticed, then you can buy her drinks all night long and then wonder why she ends up leaving with another guy. Or you can meet her at the library and run her off by your stand-offish, won't-make-a-move-because-I-respect-her attitude. That's not necessarily directed at you.

I used to be the nice guy and couldn't get a girlfriend to save my life. I met girls all the time, I just thought I was being what they liked. I had a lot to offer too. Things have changed since then. I'm no longer sporting that "nice guy" perception, but most girls that I date realize that I am a nice guy. If that makes sense.

-Dev

Yeah, you're definitely right that there are most likely plenty of girls with depth to their personality that also have that judgmental side, but those are also the type of girls that I don't want anything to do with. I understand that you didn't literally mean that relationships are a game to you, but you did allude to playing them like one. Maybe it's my perception that's a bit skewed here, but I just don't see a point in the "getting the girl" type of mentality. If a woman isn't going to like me for who I am in the beginning, then she's not going to in the end, either. I mean yeah, I use manners and try to present myself in the best way possible like everyone does, but it's still me. I don't feign cockiness, but I also don't go over-the-top with politeness and come off as desperate. I just act like myself, talk, and get to know her.

See, when I do approach a woman (which isn't often, because I tend to judge from afar...I know, what a freakin' hypocrite,) I don't approach her with a strategy or anything like that. I don't approach her like I'm trying to get with her. I just approach her like a person I want to get to know a little better. I act like myself. I listen to what she's saying, talk about whatever comes up, and if she doesn't like me for who I am, then I don't want her either. When I was all down on myself and such after my last break up, I had a number of different people telling me "You're crazy, man! You could do so much better than her. She was annoying, and chubby too! You could find some really hot chick easy." I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but most people only saw her for what she was on the outside. Really, though, I think all of those people are crazy for not understanding how great it felt to love somebody for who they truly are on the inside. I didn't even have to think about it. It just kind of happened after a while because of being so close to her as a friend and really getting to know her as a person. Maybe that's what I'm looking for again, and maybe I'll never find it. Maybe there really is a lot less to it than what I'm looking for, but right now that's what I want....or nothing. I'm pretty happy on my own, so either way I'm fine.

if you dont find some special girl that likes you for being nice,then your pretty much screwed,girls will always like tha bad guis and try to change them,like in the movies...then when your 25-26 old and have a nice job and car some WITCH is going to get you and such on your money,and you little white knight are going to fall for it SO EASY,just couse nobody liked you until now.

im sorry girls...hate me all you want but the fact is ALOT OF GIRLS like people who treat them like crap,who are ugly,the wrong type.

but there are some women that do like the nice type,that understand and respect you,and you MUST PROTECT THEM from all the bad man.

you know whats important?im just a good guy like you.and only some really nice girls respect me.
STOP BEING GOOD and start being a little evil,IGNORE the girls who dont respect you,dont talk to them.EVER AGAIN
only the girls who are nice to you deserve attencion,if some girl preffers to date some jerk...well she isnt that smart?U CANT CHANGE HER
she will complane then date another jerk...and it will be too late when she realises...
face it..were young...we want fun and exitement.
just stay confident men..and put the nasty girls in place@

Originally posted by whatukno
Some guys refuse to play a woman or be a jerk. Now some of what you said is absolutely correct. Women don't want a doormat. They do want someone with mystery and excitement. This is a bad move by guys that proclaim themselves to be "a nice guy" Women just don't want a pushover.

However, one does not have to be a pushover to be a nice guy. One does not have to use, lie and cheat women in order to be attractive. One does not have to be a jerk in order to find a quality woman.

In the thread you mentioned. What people got upset about and I agree with them is that you are using a woman that has feelings. A human being that has desires and the right to be with someone that can reciprocate those desires as well.

To answer your questions... even tho I don't consider myself a nice guy.

1) Yes I am interested in nice girls. A girl that would treat me as I would treat her in a respectable manner would be nice.

2) While I don't feel that respecting a person as an individual instead of a sex object is the characteristics of the looser nice guy, I feel that I also offer honesty, compassion, and someone they can trust.

3) Why not change to you? Because people deserve respect. Plain and simple, people deserve to be respected for who they are and not be used as a sex toy. This isn't a strategy as in a game. Women are people and they deserve to be treated with the same respect and courtesy that one would expect anyone to want themselves.



[edit on 8/9/2008 by whatukno]

As a woman I have to say "Bravo" and "Well said"!