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Take the Zeitgeist Challenge

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posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 05:04 AM
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Hey OP...thanks for bringing the Movie to my attention. I never heard of it before and your post brought it into my awareness!!

Thanks for spreading the message and ideas covered in the movie



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 05:18 AM
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There is much evidence that a lot of the bible is taken from early Pagan religions that pre dates Christianity. The Flood story for example is not unique since it parallels the Epic tale of Gilgamesh of Sumerian. The ark of the covenant itself has it's parallels in Egyptian as depicted in Heiroglyphics. You can say that these are literally etched in stone as the pyramids where some of the pre Christian influence are derived from were not easily subject to the burning rampage and destruction of pagan texts that occurred during various inquisitions. There was so much confusion and similarities of Christianity with pagan religions that Constantine, The Council of Nicea was formed to standardize Christianity because Christianity almost paralled the popular religion of that day which is the worship of Mithras. "Think of Christ as you do Mithras, they are the same." was one of the widely used propaganda to solve the confusion.



Christianity.com is a good resource of the Christian faith. Look it up but be careful because the site contains a lot of blasphemous information that might "hurt" the under informed.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by Shawn B.
You say Pagan astrology, but I can't even find anything called Pagan astrology, I'm guessing you mean Babylonian...


i mentioned "pagan astrology" as well. I use the term pagan loosely - as in polytheistic. That would include Babylonians, Egyptians, Hindus, etc. Or basically, everything other than the "Mazzaroth" which I also believed to just be a word for zodiac, not a system of using them.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 06:09 AM
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Hey bigwhammy, why don't you contact the makers of the fabulous Zeitgeist movie yourself and offer them the whopping 200.00 challenge??? Jesus is as real as Santa Clause.

Reality challenged "Christians" like yourself always claim they are superior to everyone else by taking the moral high ground in every situation. I'm so sick of you people living in a fantasy world who believes in an invisible man that lives up in the sky and keeps tabs on the good and the wicked.

What other fantasies do you believe in? Noahs Ark? Adam and Eve? The parting of the Red sea?

It's funny that when my Mom converted to Catholicism after she married my Day back in the day, she asked the instructor of the CCD class, a man by the name of Monsignor Macovoy about the validity of the stories in the bible and his response was "Most of what you read in the Bible is not true, but rather allegory. It's not the details in the message, but the message itself." I couldn't agree more.

If I so choose I could quote from the Lord of the Rings trilogy, put a religious spin on it and I would have many die hard followers, and would be able to subsequently bilk them out of their entire life savings in the name of the almighty Gandalf! " Gandalf, and the Church of Gandalf needs money you sinners!!!, pay for your sins with with your hard earned dollars. I need to upgrade to a higher class of prostitute!"

I recommend reading a book that is far more relevant than the bible will ever hope to be, it's called '___' The Spirit Molecule by: Rick Strassman.

I do agree however, that their are some good moral yarns in the Bible that are useful tools to apply in everyday life, but thats all they are, yarns...



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 06:21 AM
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OMG...ha haa haa...thanks for the really good laugh as I just got home and saw your (op) thread. Only $200? One would think if you were so confidant about proving this thing wrong you would up the ante oh, about say, a few ten thousand or so!!!!

$200! That's a trip to the gas station and the convenience store. Is that all you think truth is worth?

You said two hundred to "back up the claim" (I think the actual movie itself does just that, and so you, provided you are honest, should send the movie producer $200)...What do you think it should be worth if one can prove it wrong?

If I were a minister at a huge congregation cashing in and living life like a rock star, I guess (although I couldn't live with myself, nor could I ever in a million years be so crooked) I might have an interest in trying to smear Zeitgeist. Afterall, most of the debunking claims have their origins in christian supported web sites.

Hey, if you would like to donate some money to a good christian cause, send me some money and help me pay back my student loans. I studied in an area of the social sciences to help people (as apposed to an MBA for profits) and really could use some help. If your heart is truley in it for human good, just private message me and I'll tell you where to send your check, and I truley do appreaciate it, and if it makes you feel any better, may god bless you and yours.



[edit on 9-8-2008 by skyshow]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 07:01 AM
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Hello All - This is my first post, although I've been reading threads here on ATS for the last couple of years (with great interest, I might add). Please forgive my anonymous response - I signed up so long ago I can't remember my screen name and didn't want to delay responding while I figured all that out.

I would like to suggest - in the midst of this battle between the believers and the non-believers - that the question of whether the historical Jesus actually ever existed is irrelevant. The Christ figure and his teachings have taken on a life of their own and have had tremendous impact over the past 2,000 years. In this sense, Jesus is quite real, and quite significant - regardless of whether he existed historically. It is his identity as a mythical figure and the teachings that are associated with him that are important - and no one can deny their potency or influence.

Additionally, this question of the historical Jesus is also ultimately irrelevant to the point that was being made in Zeitgeist, which was that Christianity as we know it was created politically for the purpose of controlling the masses. The message and teachings of Jesus were perverted by the power elite of the time into a tool that was used as much for death, destruction, and ruthless societal manipulation as it was for anything truly spiritual or holy or uplifting.

Me personally, I have no strong opinion as to whether Jesus was real or strictly mythical, and nor do I much care. I will say this though - even if the historical Jesus never existed - as proposed in Zeitgeist - it does not diminish the value of the teachings and philosophies that he represents. Therefore, my stance is one that is anti religion, yet pro spirituality.

And for the record, I rather liked Zeitgeist and thought it offered many intriguing notions that were worthy of consideration (this does not mean though that ultimately I thought everything was correct, just worth pondering). The movie made me think, gave me a look at things from a different point of view - and in my book, that's a valuable thing.

Just food for thought - hopefully I haven't offended, but rather have added something of value to the dialogue. In reading all the comments on this particular thread, it just seems to me that folks have gotten sidetracked and perhaps are missing the point...

Peace.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 08:02 AM
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Zeitgeist is crap, most scholars of jesus know that.
However the debunking of Zeitgeist does not prove or disprove the existence of jesus, of which there is no genuine, corroborating evidence.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by justamomma


You do realize that Jesus was more livid with the pharisees than he was the sinners, right? Who the hell are you to laugh at ppl that you believe are going to hell as though you were RIGHTEOUS enough to do so?


I've seen some desperate attempts to pigeon hole people into some pretty ridiculous Christian Reputations to live up to but this one takes the cake.



a Christian

If you believe it then that should be good enough for yourself. I am not going to waste my time proving it because what I believe is not something I feel the need to convince to you. What I believe in or do not believe in is not up for sale. Neither should your beliefs be up for sale.


Well well! You certainly shamed Bigwhammy with that load of crao, I bet he just feels like a fool being in the presence of such an advanced soul such as yourself huh.

First of all, your belief isn't for sale, NOT because you have any depth and character, living up to your own code of honor, but because NO one would buy it. You simply don't have anything to sell in that regard unless someone is shopping for some cheat trolling tricks to antagonize Christians.

That is all you have done since you got here is spout off reasons you don't believe this or that and no one can make you believe it. You have whined and bitched about all the protocols of appropriate pre- J.C. Approved Christia behaviors Big Whammy apparently didn't comply with or doesn't measure up in your view, you know the one that doesn't believe in this Book being anything more than story, doesn't want to participate but none of that stops him from making more posts telling us how he could'nt be bothered or the pay isn't worth it etc,. Yeah we GET that



I somehow doubt that the man who said "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (John 8:7) would approve of this pious quest. Sounds more like something the pharisees would have done.


LOL wow lets get into some good ole legalism shall we reprobate? Yeah I was thinking the same thing, Shame on Bigwhammy using such a sick and twisted method for recruiting Judas types.

BAD Whammy! Bad Bad Bad!

Me? I'm just wondering why YOU are still here is you are so damn disenchanted Whammy hasn't done a more accurate perfomance getting you to mistake him for Jesus,

I mean after all I can't picture Jesus driving a car but that doesn't mean he wouldn't and it doesn't mean he wouold have anything against our using one.

Would a good old fashioned Bake Sale meet with your sarcastic snide and cynical approval or shall we all wait till the Pope gives Whammy Sainthood before he is seen as a "Good enough" to post further Christian for you because if anyone is acting like a Pharasee,

it is YOU, homey

- Con



[edit on 9-8-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 08:20 AM
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I'll say this on this subject:

The way I see it, Religion is something that mankind has made up, and twisted to different designs to suit what we, as a civilization needed, at the time.

We have reached a new time, as well. A time when Man shouldn't cling to such archaic beliefs. Now is the time when Man, as a species should use the tools we have developed, and realise that MAN is it's own leader. God isn't 'watching' us, Nor is he helping us, IF indeed, he exists, so I maintain, that for humanity to grow, we need to shed all organized religions... as, well, they DO generally employ fear mongering tactics to retain their misplaced power.

Just my two cents.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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I just want to add something here.

To debunk, disproove or any other action as an attempt to ridicule others belief or faith will not automatically proove that Jesus and the christian god exist. It will not automatically give more credibility to Jesus and the Christian god.

The OP are apperentlly provoked by the numerous threads about this matter and have now attempted to do likewise but to the favor of religon instead.

In my opinion, the best thing would be not to care really. If you believe in Jesus and God, then do so. If they gonna save you ( somehow ) then why even bother making threads like this? Why even bother to come to a site like this in the first place?
But don't call other people liars just because they don't share the same view of faith as you. This is a general thing, and not just pointed towards religous people.

No point to try and proove anything. Believe anything you want...

Personally I believe that parts of religon, is a misinterpretation of ancient Ufology and other parts is just a story in a book that has been rewritten over and over again.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by Akezzon]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy

The Gospel account by Luke has been established as one of the most accurate historical documents period for that time period. Due to colloborating data from other sources etc.


Can I just point out how writers have used historical events to create a setting for their stories for a long, long time? Just because a story has a few facts blended in does not make it completely true. Using your logic "Monty Python's Life Of Brian" could be taken as historical fact!

I cannot vouch for the voracity of Zeitgeist's claims, but it at least comes across like it could be based in truth. Unlike the Bible, which reads as if it was written by a bunch of ancient trippy Hunter S. Thompson whacko types! I can never understand why people believe in it so strongly, because it's as believable as an issue of Superman or The Fantastic Four! And you Christians laugh at Scientology? Hah! What a cheek!

(I also laugh at Scientology btw, and pretty much any other religion. I was raised a Catholic, but I realised at a very young age that it was all more than likely a complete crock! But hey, whatever floats your boat, just don't come preaching to me...)



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


I would say that she is no more threatened by the fact that Jesus is who he said he was, then you are afraid of finding out that he was not who he says he was...

you have NO proof that he is who he said he was, so why should i spend even a moment of my time trying to prove to you he isn't the son of god, and the bible isn't the word of god. but the word of men who listened to someone who said he was the son of god.

basically, im not going to spend my time trying to change the mind of someone who lacks the mental capacity to see that he is believing in something the he has no REAL objective proof of...

to each his own though i supposed, good day to you. and i truly do hope for you that when you are lying on your death bed, your god does come to your aid... otherwise what a truly sad and meaningless existence you lead... trying to please something that isn't there.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 10:09 AM
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As far as I am concerned Jesus was a Human with an Alien Soul. Keep the two hundred



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by bornagainagnostic

Hey bigwhammy, why don't you contact the makers of the fabulous Zeitgeist movie yourself and offer them the whopping 200.00 challenge??? Jesus is as real as Santa Clause.


Oh That's a BRILLIANT! IDEA! Whammy, the displayed lack of thought, intelligence and common courtesy of your growing number of trolling groupies, never ceases to amaze me. Yeah smart guy,, lets offer the creators of "Zeshister". I mean after all, wouldn't they have the most to gain winning the two hundred dollars by killing off their own movie!

Yeah, THAT makes a lot of sense and I just know Whammy is going to get on the splendid idea by the time hell freezes over. Sheesh



Reality challenged "Christians" like yourself always claim they are superior to everyone else by taking the moral high ground in every situation.


Reality Challenged?? Ha ha that's funny,, if you don't think reality challenges EVERYONE,, then YOU are the one living in a fanytasy. Hell, all you got to lay a claim to is a certain death you are going to face sooner than you think and all that reality crap is worthless. You'll not ever know you ever existed much less knew what bibliobigotry you have towards those Christians that make you feel ashamed and inferior.

Yeah I said inferior because I don't believe whammy has told you he is superior and no Christians are going to give you an inferiority complex without your consent. Unless you can cite the quote where BW "Claims" this, you will just keep sounding like the mouthy trolling antagonist you try in earnest to be.


I'm so sick of you people living in a fantasy world who believes in an invisible man that lives up in the sky and keeps tabs on the good and the wicked.


He isn't invisible, you just keep running out of sight and it wouldn't be for that reason you have all this angst aggression anyway. Gravity is invisible, but I don't see you calling that a fantasy or those who believe in it.

YOU DO believe in Gravity do you not?

So then what's the real problem? The keeping tabs thing?

Wrong again, he doesn't keep tabs on you or anyone else. Keeping tabs is for those who have to record the history and events of this world as they happen. The gnashing of teeth and the excruciating flames of hells eternal punishment we all decide to favor over the silly belief in the sky fairy will be the moment you finally figure out what reality is all about



What other fantasies do you believe in? Noahs Ark? Adam and Eve? The parting of the Red sea?


Wow! you have heard of all those too! See, so they DO exist after all
I just don't get it how people can believe in the transitional form of the month while invariably becoming one more bogus antiquated relic to pile up on the mountain of misfit fraudulent schemes and hoax they called evidence for Darwinian everillusion, but you can't seem to accept others for their belief when out of the two, Darwinism stands as the biggest hoax, most pathetically proposed theory and constructs of Science, the world has ever seen but you got room to say this about BW??

Ha ha ha you're a funny guy.



It's funny that when my Mom converted to Catholicism after she married my Day back in the day, she asked the instructor of the CCD class, a man by the name of Monsignor Macovoy about the validity of the stories in the bible and his response was "Most of what you read in the Bible is not true, but rather allegory.


I asked the Monsignor that and he said he never said anything like that but only the fact the the Catholic Latin Vulgate Bible IS full of fables the Roman Catholics put in there. They are tenets of the Catholic (whore) religion and it doesn't surprise me in the least, the Church who diametrically opposes the Genesis account by saying Evolution has been accepted by the Church, should tell you who the Apostate Church in the last days might be. I mean ask yourself, does that answer you gave ring true at all?? I think you are making the whole thing up myself.

Either that or your Mom is.



It's not the details in the message, but the message itself." I couldn't agree more.


You can go right ahead agreeing with the rest of those who don't pay attention to detail and have more loose ends in there lives because of it.



If I so choose I could quote from the Lord of the Rings trilogy, put a religious spin on it and I would have many die hard followers, and would be able to subsequently bilk them out of their entire life savings in the name of the almighty Gandalf! " Gandalf, and the Church of Gandalf needs money you sinners!!!, pay for your sins with with your hard earned dollars. I need to upgrade to a higher class of prostitute!"


Yep sounds just like the Catholic Church to me too.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by Conspiriology
 


i sure hope you don't call yourself a Christian.... you represent the exact opposite of what one should be...



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 10:52 AM
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The problem is even in the 21st century some people are still unable to live life through their own morals and common sense, and cannot trust their own judgment. They constantly seek approval and pats on the back Just like a dog serving its master.........No wonder the term sheeple is used.

Imho the sooner religion is dumped the sooner we as a world can unite as one.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by sotp

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

The Gospel account by Luke has been established as one of the most accurate historical documents period for that time period. Due to colloborating data from other sources etc.


Can I just point out how writers have used historical events to create a setting for their stories for a long, long time? Just because a story has a few facts blended in does not make it completely true. Using your logic "Monty Python's Life Of Brian" could be taken as historical fact!

I cannot vouch for the voracity of Zeitgeist's claims, but it at least comes across like it could be based in truth. Unlike the Bible, which reads as if it was written by a bunch of ancient trippy Hunter S. Thompson whacko types! I can never understand why people believe in it so strongly, because it's as believable as an issue of Superman or The Fantastic Four! And you Christians laugh at Scientology? Hah! What a cheek!

(I also laugh at Scientology btw, and pretty much any other religion. I was raised a Catholic, but I realised at a very young age that it was all more than likely a complete crock! But hey, )




Yeah "ZitShister" the movie, seems to appeal to the Dylan Avery loose change mentality. I had been invovled in a debunking thread at JREF about it for a long time and it's been over a year or more and the yare still going at it on the same thread. The movie is has been ripped to pieces as nothing but PURE BUNK.




whatever floats your boat, just don't come preaching to me...


What do you think you were doing to us in your post?

Read like a bunch of preaching to me.

- Con



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by ken10
The problem is even in the 21st century some people are still unable to live life through their own morals and common sense, and cannot trust their own judgment. They constantly seek approval and pats on the back Just like a dog serving its master.........No wonder the term sheeple is used.

Imho the sooner religion is dumped the sooner we as a world can unite as one.


Yeah THEN WHAT? Religion haters crack me up and everything you just said has been spoon fed to you about them so get off your sanctimonious horse. You talk as if we can trust your judgement and in the same sentence you condemn all religions in one fell swoop.

Now you know why we have doubts about your ability to use honest, impartial moral judgement. It isn't ours we don't trust,

it's YOURS

- Con



[edit on 9-8-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiriology

Reality Challenged?? Ha ha that's funny



What is funny is that you laugh at his claim you are "Reality Challenged", because he is quite right! You call all posters who do not agree "trolls" when clearly you are one yourself. I love the way you call Darwinism a great lie when there seems to be supporting evidence all over the place yet little to no evidence of the existence of Jesus. I also love the way you just happen to know this Monsignor MacAvoy from the "whore" Catholic church personally and are able to take him to task with such questions. Wait, what's that smell? It smells a bit like, well, effluent! I can see why your ATS points are well into the negative....


Say there had never been a Jesus, or a bible or any Christian church etc. You go about your business worshipping the Sun or the Moon or that phallically shaped vegetable you found one day or whatever. Then one day, some dude shows up claiming your belief system is way off, that he is the son of the one who created everything, and you will suffer horribly for all eternity if you did not follow his teachings. Would you instantly believe him? I doubt very much that you would. Chances are you'd think he was nuts. Miracles? You'd probably suspect he was pulling some David Blaine type stunts. So why is it that just because the story is almost 2000 years old and you pay some guys wearing robes in fancy buildings to tell you it's true you think it has more credibility? Why (in your eyes) does Christianity have more Validity than any other religion? What makes you right and Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. wrong?

To the OP - nice avatar, but I'm afraid I have to nominate you for the B.D.I.U award along with Conspiriology...



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by SRTkid86
reply to post by Conspiriology
 


i sure hope you don't call yourself a Christian.... you represent the exact opposite of what one should be...


I don't call myself a Christian, I am a sinner, and I TRY to be a Christian. Albeit I may not be the Christian YOU want me to be but if you are a Christian,, I know many many many Christians on these boards that will tell you, you couldn't have a more passionate Christian defending other Christians and Christianity in general.

If you don't think I sugar coat it enough because you allow these Christian Antagonists to manipulate you into some weak pissant goody goody Christian who turns the other cheek,, BE ADVISED:

I only turn the other cheek

ONCE.

- Con




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